The only time I remember non-ritual magic in Conan was the Marvel comics. In my recollection, all the magic in the stories was rituals like summonings or mind control. Very NPC stuff.

Quote from: Doom;933014
I've read all the "main" R E Howard (and De Camp) Conan stories three times through at least, and wracking my brain. It's been a few years. A lich cast an Earthquake like spell in a major battle...but it's possible that was set up beforehand (and lich also summoned some sort of minor demon the night before too--two spells in two days, making him a major magical badass). I think there was a druid who was good for counter-magic...many any real experts here?

All the examples in my post above are directly from  RE Howard stories.

ETA: I am not an expert though. :-) I just recently read them.

I think a Howardian magic user could work in an RPG. They would typically be more physically competent than D&D wizards for one. If we extrapolate from what is in the stories then you have a magic system that tends to require preparation time for any spell, this would require casters to really think about what spells they want to use as well as the cost of expending resources on them. Demonic summoning and binding would also be an element, one that would have it's potential pitfalls. Enchantment seems to be a thing. Oh and of course they would act as lore masters which could come in all sorts of handy for exploration.

The mechanics are there the problem is a small list of defined effects. Even that isn't really all that great of a pitfall if you stick to some basic guidelines when devising spells, magic is time intensive, most effects are subtle or limited in scope, flash-bang effects are rare, and the gods don't give a rats ass about you so be careful with them.

I'm still unimpressed with the scenarios. The first scenario is unwinnable by the heroes if the Overlord knows what he's doing. The second is unwinnable by the Overlord if the heroes don't go extraordinarily stupid.

The third scenario? The heroes can win in one turn, probably will win in 2 turns, might win in 3 turns...and after that, it's hopeless for them. The system itself just doesn't lend itself to anything resembling strategy beyond the very basics.

I expect that when the Scenario Design App shows up we will see lots of player generated content which may be better. I am concerned with the scenario issues since they supposedly playtested the heck out of it for ages.

Quote from: Doom;932806the idea of barbarian being able to defeat a wizard is pure laughable in D&D terms.

As always, if by D&D, you mean 3e+.

Quote from: Spinachcat;933404I expect that when the Scenario Design App shows up we will see lots of player generated content which may be better. I am concerned with the scenario issues since they supposedly playtested the heck out of it for ages.

The minis came with a game?  Is that what all that weird cardboard stuff was for?  

Quote from: Spinachcat;933404I expect that when the Scenario Design App shows up we will see lots of player generated content which may be better. I am concerned with the scenario issues since they supposedly playtested the heck out of it for ages.

Well, I'm not quite expert, but, for example, in scenario 1, the heroes have to find and rescue the princess, and kill the shaman, and get off the board, in 8 turns.

Now, the princess could be hidden, but for the sake of argument let's just put her right under the giant snake. The snake has 8 hit points, and 3 points of armor.

The rogue, if he puts everything he has into it, will roll 5 dice (4 orange and 1 yellow); mathematically, he'll do a 5 point hit, and armor reduces this by 3. The overlord will burn a die on defense, mathematically reducing damage by another 1.

Conan would likewise swing with all he has, and he'll do a more impressive 7 point hit, mathematically. Again, the overlord might well burn 3 dice on defense, so mathematically another point. Luck could swing this one point either way, but that's about it (we're rolling basically d3s here, lots of them).

The wizard could fireball...but that'll mathematically do 3 points (reduced to 0 by the snake's armor), and it'll hit everyone fighting the snake--there are plenty of other targets that need snuffing.

Now, the overlord can theoretically use 5 dice a turn on defense (and he's only used 4, above), and starts the game with a few extra as well, while the heroes can't do the "full on attack" but maybe three times in the game (and they'd have to rest the previous turn, doing nothing).  The snake is going to take 6 turns to kill with average rolls (and with 50 dice being rolled over all those turns, average is going to come up often--I'm giving the heroes far more ability to attack than they actually have), and that's assuming the overlord decides not to put everything he has into defending the snake (he can also spend points on rerolls if he gets unlucky on defense). And, seriously, this is such an obvious move because the Overload doesn't have to kill anyone, just has to survive. He has no reason to ever actually attack, although moving some guys around might be helpful.

The heroes also have to kill the shaman, and he has the same level of armor (another 3 turns, as he has 5 instead of 8 hit points...the heroes will have ot rest at some point). AND they have to drag the princess and the shaman's head off the board.

Figure around 1 turn to get to the snake, at least 1 turn to get to the shaman, and at least 1 turn to get off the board. It could easily be more than this, as there are blocking Picts around.

At the end of turn 8, if the heroes haven't done this, the Overlord wins.

Add up the turns assuming average rolls, and you'll see it's quite unlikely for the heroes to do succeed, and that's with the Overlord telling them exactly where the princess is (under the snake), instead of forcing the heroes to go hut-to-hut looking for her.  

The second scenario is even more ridiculously unbalanced, even assuming maximum best rolls won't be good enough. The Overlord has to kill Belit, again in 8 turns, and it takes 3 turns to get to her with even one hostile...she comes with 5 bodyguards, each of which can absorb one attack (and die). and Belit can also defend herself quite well (again, getting 5 dice a turn if need be). If Conan weren't on the board, she might be kill-able...but, he is, and is more than capable of slaughtering enemies. As he should be, mind you, but I just don't see the balance here, even if on the surface it looks like a fun scenario.

The third scenario has the heroes killing another evil wizard. If the wizard lives 8 turns, the Overlord wins. In this case, the wizard has 2 armor and 5 hit points. Conan and the thief can both get to the wizard on turn 1, and both can deal a maximum attack. It'll take luck to kill the wizard, but he'll be hurting bad even if he uses all his dice on defense (mathematically, 2 hp left). Turn 2, the wizard will limp away, but an exhausted Conan (did I mention you really can't do a full on attack every turn?) can still take out his chump guards, and Belit's full attack will probably end the wizard. The rogue will either rest, or loot a chest and maybe find an energy potion. Turn 3, the wizard likely dies. After that, the wizard will like have a monstrous defender (armor 3) which the heroes can't really kill in time to get to the wizard. I'm still playing with it, but I sure don't see anything better for the wizard, and the heroes really can't waste time getting to him.

Hmm, maybe if the wizard does absolutely nothing on the first turn, just sits there and collects dice for defense, he might survive. I'll have to take a few more swings with that effort...(EDIT: nope, just standing there and being pounded on doesn't help).

The point here is still strategy is pretty limited. It's a good bash-em-up, but  as far as decisions go, it's thin sauce.

So if someone plays a Conan game like a gutless, spineless Rules Lawyer, it doesn't work right?

Is that a bug or a feature?

I'm reminded of the Car Wars player who maxxed out armor, had a 360 turret, an armored beer fridge and a kami-bomb.  The car couldn't practically move, but he didn't care.

Some times you just break out The Bucket, crack someone upside the head, tell them to stop being a useless shitbag, and play the goddamn game.

Go and Chess still exist, as does Advanced Squad Leader and a hundred other games with in-depth, decades or even centuries-proven tactical challenge.

A miniatures skirmish game based on a genre property probably should worry most about the genre.  I'm far more concerned with Hadrathus teleporting and fireballing then I am the GM being able to turtle with a Giant Snake.  Dicks will be dicks, therefore The Bucket.

Gutless, spineless rules lawyer? Geez, a bit harsh, eh?

I mean, if the mission is "hold out until reinforcements arrive," is it really gutless to, you know, play defensively until, you know, reinforcements arrive? It's totally within the Conan genre for the princess to be guarded by a giant snake, after all. The issue is the game design is goofy, the snake is just too tough if the Overload knows what he's doing.

Toss the "you're a dick" rationalization for the first scenario, fine. The second scenario, doesn't work either. The mission is "try to kill Belit quickly"...I don't think the Belit player is being a dick for NOT having Belit abandon her guards and rush over to the enemy boat and refuse to defend herself.

Geez.

I grant the third mission is exciting, being typically a 2 turn game...but there's no real options here for either player. If the heroes don't rush to the wizard, he'll have time to hide behind the snake (much like scenario 1, it's an 8 turn game)...if the heroes do rush the wizard, the wizard really can't do much but hope for some very serious luck on his part.

Can Conan move into the zone with the Snake & the Rape Object and then pick up the Rape Object and move out of the zone?

Conan would be hindered, but are there rules that say the Rape Object can't be moved if any foes are in that zone?

Nope--Snake has "blocker", you can't move out. Rape Object has encumbrance 6, so she can't be thrown out (the head can be tossed, at least). Thief has "evasion", but he loses it if his encumbrance goes past 5. Rape Object has no independent thought or action.

Quote from: Doom;933531Geez, a bit harsh, eh?

Maybe, but any scenario with a false dissociated turn limit restriction leaves itself open to Sheldon Abuse.  A Conan scenario is Win or Get Away, not "Hold off the Winged Apes until the Cavalry arrives" or "Corner Case like a Denner until you win by technicality."  If you have to have those types of scenarios, have them be explicit, associated and rare.

Quote from: Spinachcat;933539Can Conan move into the zone with the Snake & the Rape Object and then pick up the Rape Object and move out of the zone?

Conan would be hindered, but are there rules that say the Rape Object can't be moved if any foes are in that zone?

I see what you did there. At some point, game companies are just going to stop hiring women. It's not like hiring them is doing wonders for PR anyway.

I only support hiring talented people, regardless if you gotta grab'em by the dick or the pussy.

TSR put out a boardgame called Dragonstrike back in the 90s that wasn't perfect, but had some excellent ideas. One was that you has X turns to complete the mission, but if you went beyond turn X, then the Dragon would arrive and the Dragon was a horrific killing machine. So, the X turns was not without merit.

I am kinda confused how these scenarios got past so many playtesters.

Quote from: Spinachcat;933553I only support hiring talented people, regardless if you gotta grab'em by the dick or the pussy.

TSR put out a boardgame called Dragonstrike back in the 90s that wasn't perfect, but had some excellent ideas. One was that you has X turns to complete the mission, but if you went beyond turn X, then the Dragon would arrive and the Dragon was a horrific killing machine. So, the X turns was not without merit.

I am kinda confused how these scenarios got past so many playtesters.

Well, if the playtesters are just dudes at convention demos, then it'd be pretty easy. You won't see the problem the first game, especially if you have a new player playing as Overseer. I didn't see the problem the first game...it took two swings before it became clear that you're no going to kill the snake unless the Overseer either 1) doesn't care if the snake lives or 2) has exhausted all his dice and left nothing for defense.

Option "2" only happens if you waste dice moving or attacking, and it's not immediately obvious that attacking is pointless. Yes, you can kill the heroes, theoretically, but doing so only makes the other heroes stronger (I'm serious, they recover more quickly when one dies)...it make more sense to just knock a hero down to 2 HP or so and then leave them alone. And, generally, you won't put much effort into attacking when you're on defense.

But playing at a convention, where you might not even play a whole game (a game takes under an hour once you know the rules, but if you don't know them, a bit more than an hour is quite possible), you're not going to spot real flaws. I strongly suspect only Scenario 1 was played in demos, though. I have no idea how nobody noticed how ridiculous scenario 2 is, it's pretty clear on one play that there's just no way you're going to kill Belit.

For what it's worth, that third scenario is somewhat balanced (I'd put it 70/30 Conan).