I saw this earlier, and it really made me angry. (http://www.beastsofwar.com/games-workshop/announcement/) I understand what they are trying to do - but why? This is having a horrible effect on even their most ardent fans.
Now I admit, I have been a staunch GW supporter in the past. However...
It's gotten really bad this year. They seem to have completely and UTTERLY lost their goddamned minds. From the whacked out price variations to the complete and utter disregard for public image or game balance. WD has deteriorated over the past year to actually be the joke everyone has been making of it for the past decade - only they seem to have embraced that concept.
I've had enough compelling arguments to bring the motion before my club to remove GW entirely from our gaming continuum. We can no longer in good conscience promote any GW game to new players unless we promote Wargames Factory as the model source. Yet with the way the rulebooks are turning out these days, there's not even a really good reason to do that. We are turning away from GW, but there's a faction that's finding it hard to let go. Personally, I'd like to remove GW from our cramped schedule simply because then I'd have more room for Flames of War and Warmachine.
Add to that we just obtained Ronin from Osprey and are adapting it to Legend of the Five Rings.
GW better wake the fuck up.
I know they won't, but I felt compelled to state that anyway.
At this rate, the motion to remove GW from the club's coverage and activity will be back on the board pretty fucking quick.
Fuck.
I don't pay much attention to them as a business, but I sure do think their prices are fucking ridiculous. If i thought in could find people in my area who would be cool with it I would be using minis other than their to play their game. (By that I mean fantasy, but I'd like to get into 40k one day)
I have no clue how true it is but all the FLGS owners in my area seem convinced that they are in trouble and Hasbro is eyeballing buying them out.
I have no idea why GW are such ass-hats.
The solution is as always, don't buy stuff from them if you don't like them. It's really all you can do.
Its massively worse in countries like Australia.
Absurd price gouging way past what we see in the US.
The cancellation of permission to sell product online to Australian FLGS that other countries apparently are still allowed.
The increasing rate of the price jacking.
How long can the cult theyve built up last? Sooner or later they will start loosing more than they are suckering in simply because hardly anyone will be able to afford the damn minis.
You can't really "price gouge" on a luxury item.
Don't want to pay what they ask? Don't buy it, no one is forcing you.
Its really hard, liking the game and the figures so much, but hearing about GWs actions. As I'm finishing g up my Skaven army, I already talked to the people I play with about from now on only using non-GW models. Outside of Skaven , this won't be particularly hard, and I've already done heavy research into alternatives for Ratmen.
It was this video from Miniwargaming earlier this summer that really clenched it for me:
http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/an-open-video-letter-games-workshop (Miniwargaming:%20an%20open%20letter%20to%20GW)
Miniwargaming isnt alone in this. The new trade agreement earlier this year has had an enormous effect on online retailers, many whose small brick and mortar shops are kept open by Internet sales. Retailers in Australia are filing a class action suit against GW.
I don't see them staying in profit using this ruthless, short-sighted approach. I'd love to see wargammers en masse boycott the company and turn to one of the many alternatives. I managed to snag a copy of the old Rackham Confrontation rulebook, and snagged a used copy of Warhammer Ancient Battles. Even thinking of writing my own system. Even if you really want to play Warhammer, there's so many companies producing miniatures on par with GW for a fraction of the price I really recommend looking into proxies.
I don't think the miniature industry as a whole will survive in its current form another decade though, with 3d printing advancing so quickly and getting so affordable.
Quote from: Piestrio;698091You can't really "price gouge" on a luxury item.
Don't want to pay what they ask? Don't buy it, no one is forcing you.
I stopped many years ago after they phased out the two minis I'd had a very minor hand in.
I dont like the newer sculpts on a-lot of the units and knowing how GW treats its workers was just another nail in the coffin. That and it seemed like everyone local was dropping everything GW.
I played with Wargods of Aegyptus after that. Interesting system, with more sanely and just as well sculpted minis.
It's not about the money.
Quote from: Blackhand;698398It's not about the money.
The ever shifting focus from squads to whole armies to champions to whatever didnt help either.
Oh... and an army book for stuff they hadnt even made most of the minis for yet. That one was a bit of a quirk moment.
My main issue is they absolutely refuse to get the rules in working order.
Power Creep is a massive problem in every edition, and this new edition is no exception. As WHFB moves into it's 9th edition next summer, the first army book tht will be released is Orcs and Goblins, which was last released in 2010 as the first ever hardcover army book for either system. There's no reason for that when all the armies haven't been updated.
But halfway through the cycle, they start prepping the lists for the next edition. In 40k right now, one need only look at the difference between codex Dark Angels and codex Space Marines to see the power creep in action (already) in 6th edition.
They keep shoehorning things into the games to sell models.
Flyers run 40k now. You must buy $75-100 to have a unit on that level, and not every army has had access to anti-aircraft weapons - forcing new kits to be sold to competitive players.
In fantasy, monsters get Thunderstomp now for no fucking reason whatsoever. Yeah they really needed that. My buddy and archrival fields 3 giants at 2000 points, and yeah he can do that (I'll tell you how if you ask nice). No monsters on the field? Fuck you buddy. Let's see your spearmen do something about these ogre beasts.
Add to that the fact that you need more units for each game than ever before, while simultaneously charging double for each model (in some cases, i.e. Dire Avengers) and / or putting half the models you need in each box.
Compare: GW State Troops vs. Hail Caesar Legionaries. 10 GW state troops with options for spears, halberds (same basic polearm, different head bits) swords and shields is sold for 27.50 (USD). 30 Legionaries with gladius and pilum is 27.00. 28 Greek hoplites from Wargames Factory with swords and spears is 20.00. And anyone wishing to join any Warhammer game at our club will be advised of all the alternative models they can possibly get. With the club's wide knowledge in this area, GW will be lucky to sell a single kit here next year.
I think the club has decided to develop our Warhammer games on our own from now on, without GW's input. We can use whatever fucking models we want on our games, and we're beholden to no one for our game space, so no trade agreement can regulate anything we do.
That's why I'm getting more and more excited about historical games from Warlord and Battlefront (love me some FoW).
I like 8th, but not as much as 3rd, and that not as much as WAB, which was basically a cleaned-up 3e.
I don't have any trouble with monsters, Doonwheel and/or a small unit of Gutter Runners with poison/slings usually makes short work of them. I like that 8th emphasizes units over characters. Yes, from a marketing standpoint it's obviously designed that way to sell more models, but it does feel more like a massive battle to me bringing units of 30+ models into play.
The prices based on points value is just retarded. Raising the prices simultaneously with switching to plastics had to be one of the most cutthroat moves I've ever seen in the industry though, and I'm not going to be switching to 9th, though I do like that they are not going to be doing individual army books in that edition. Thinking of starting a thread just to point out all the alternative models available, though one thing I'll give GW credit for is some damnn pretty toys. Not all of them though, the Night Runners models are godawful: look like demented chimps.
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m600050a_99120206002_SkavenNightRunnersMPPK_445x319.jpg)
You used to be able to play a solid (WHFB5) Chaos Warrior army for well under £100 - and I know, because I played that army. A single box of Warriors or Knights would form a decent unit on it's own, and while they were bloody expensive in-game, that made them really cheap and easy to collect out-of-game. My buddy played Orcs - one of his units would outnumber my entire army. Bring it, green boy - I can break any of your units with my charge, so you'd better hope you can take me down before I get that. I'm T4 and my worst armour save is a 3+. Have fun throwing your pointy sticks.
Being honest, I either won by lots or lost by lots.
I mean, I can understand cash inflation, that's expected, but points inflation really annoys me. If you want the standard game to be larger, okay, pitch 3,000 or 3,500 points as a standard. But don't take away the game we already had.
Problem is GW execs believe the game is like a cult, and apparently some execs want to run it like a cult.
And lets be honest. A fair portion of the GW games players ARE a cult. GW can do no wrong. The prices are fair, look, you are saving 3 bucks buying the boxed set for the same units! The minis are the BESTEST MOSTEST sculpts ever.
GW makes the damn minis for pennies (pence?) They have the process down to a science now.
I got out of playing anything GW well over a decade ago and prices were absurd then. 50$ US for a Keeper of secrets. I check now and a skaven Warpfire Thrower or five measely skavenslaves is 15$?
For decades now I have loved Warhammer and hated Games Workshop which has led to this confusing relationship where I just buy used stuff off eBay. GW have been assholes to their fans for a loooong time.
GW is run by scumbags, but damn I love freaking love their settings. It sucks.
I really enjoy the setting of Warlords of Aegyptus, but I can't get excited about their figs unfortunately.
I dropped Warhammer for Wargods of Aegyptus. Good system and really good sculpts with fair variety. I have some of the prototype minis and one of my suggestions apparently lead to the Khemeru race. So Like Warhammer, I have that little extra interest for having had some tiny little impact.
As for the Warhammer setting... eh... its a bit too generic for my liking. The RPG was neet at least. Deadly but neet.
eh, such is fate. Companies go bad left and right. Its the appalling level of corruption GW suffers that is the hard part.
I don't carry Warhammer at my store but I have come to appreciate the issues that exist in the miniatures industry that put them where they are.
You have to understand that the market all but collapses in the spring. People head out of doors and spend their money at fairs and campgrounds.
GW's May / June price hike is actually pretty brilliant. It provides a spike in sales right when things would be slowest and creates interest right when interest is fading.
The shift to plastics is more complex price wise. The materials for the figures are cheap but the upfront cost of the moulds is very high, though not as absurd as it was twenty years ago.
What I can't abide is the endless movement of the game to require more and bigger figures and the endless compounding of the nightmarish sequence slavery that is part and parcel of Warhammer.
Mind you, the best market contender for a fantasy battle game is Kings of War which is at best workman-like and at worst dull.
Business ethics I think would be the issue more than business acumen.
I would have thought War Machine/Hordes to be a bigger contender than KoW though.
Yes, Warmachine has a larger market share. But it's not the same kind of thing as Warhammer to my mind. I'm sure I haven't expressed what I meant adequately with "fantasy battle game."
Generally Warmachine is more about small forces of super weapons rather than mass battles. It's also more steam punk and is much farther from the Tolkien emulation field. So I don't really see it as a contender for what Warhammer is or was, even though it certainly falls into the same category, it's more it's own thing, which is okay if that's what you want. Personally I don't care for it and would like my fantasy battles one step removed from my ancients battles.
But then, I've never ever, ever been known to have strong and irrational biases right?
Quote from: TristramEvans;698783I like 8th, but not as much as 3rd, and that not as much as WAB, which was basically a cleaned-up 3e.
I don't have any trouble with monsters, Doonwheel and/or a small unit of Gutter Runners with poison/slings usually makes short work of them. I like that 8th emphasizes units over characters. Yes, from a marketing standpoint it's obviously designed that way to sell more models, but it does feel more like a massive battle to me bringing units of 30+ models into play.
The prices based on points value is just retarded. Raising the prices simultaneously with switching to plastics had to be one of the most cutthroat moves I've ever seen in the industry though, and I'm not going to be switching to 9th, though I do like that they are not going to be doing individual army books in that edition. Thinking of starting a thread just to point out all the alternative models available, though one thing I'll give GW credit for is some damnn pretty toys. Not all of them though, the Night Runners models are godawful: look like demented chimps.
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m600050a_99120206002_SkavenNightRunnersMPPK_445x319.jpg)
I would not mind a thread pointing out alternative models, I just can't see myself being able to afford their shit on a regular basis for a while yet.
Warmachine is decidedly different from Warhammer, but I see what he's saying. In our club, Warmachine is definitely gobbling up enthusiasm that I'm sure GW would rather us spend on Warhammer.
Yet we're moving more towards historicals these days anyways. Hail Caesar!
Yeah I guess Warmachine is more a skirmish SciFi game, I wasn't really thinking as a direct comparison.
Has anyone played those Ad&D miniature battle rules from the 80s? Can't recall the name (battle zone?), but it never seemed very popular. Keep seeing the old box set for sale at one of the LGS for 15 though, and somewhat curious.
Quote from: Blackhand;699272Warmachine is decidedly different from Warhammer, but I see what he's saying. In our club, Warmachine is definitely gobbling up enthusiasm that I'm sure GW would rather us spend on Warhammer.
Yet we're moving more towards historicals these days anyways. Hail Caesar!
I'd like to play some historical wargames, but last time I checked, that club was on the same night as the roleplaying club.
Quote from: Ladybird;699295I'd like to play some historical wargames, but last time I checked, that club was on the same night as the roleplaying club.
I'm currently looking into do a Napoleonic Skaven army. Just because I think it would look awesome, and I could do Napoleon as a mole.
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll237/bprdhellboy/Skaven/null_zpscc54c2ac.jpg)
Quote from: TristramEvans;699287Yeah I guess Warmachine is more a skirmish SciFi game, I wasn't really thinking as a direct comparison.
Has anyone played those Ad&D miniature battle rules from the 80s? Can't recall the name (battle zone?), but it never seemed very popular. Keep seeing the old box set for sale at one of the LGS for 15 though, and somewhat curious.
Battlesystem.
I've been thinking of working up a system for doing the Greyhawk Wars in 28mm. Something like "Warlords of Greyhawk". The idea has got some enthusiasm in the club, and we could use all of our Warhammer minis.
Totally unlicensed and for personal use only. Yet, we can get it made into a not-for-sale hardcover, since we know the right people for a limited run (like, 5 copies).
Quote from: Ladybird;699295I'd like to play some historical wargames, but last time I checked, that club was on the same night as the roleplaying club.
Why compromise? We do wargames on Sunday afternoon, followed by roleplay Sunday night.
Quote from: Blackhand;699312Why compromise? We do wargames on Sunday afternoon, followed by roleplay Sunday night.
Different crowds, alas, and as I met the vast majority of people I know here through the roleplaying club, and it's my favourite hobby, it takes priority.
I don't have the time or, frankly, the inclination, to set up a new club for either.
We're having a lot of fun with Pike and Shotte. I'm working on a Louis XIV French Army right now but playing my Empire as Elizbethan English in the mean time.
Battle System 1e and 2e are totally different games. That said, I think 2e was the better version. Sadly it needed more structure and support. It's all well and good that you can covert D&D characters to the rules but if you can't balance them with a points system it creates issues.
But the rules themselves are fun and functional. I've thought many times about doing a version for Dark Passages. But since chasing the retroclone horde seems more than a little pointless I haven't bothered.
Really very few people have actually read Dark Passages anyhow.
I haven't given GW any money directly in years and years, and I'm glad to see more people give up on them every couple of years when they do crap like this.
Happy I'm not the only one who was undewhelmed by Kings of War.
I played my first game of the current WHFB a few weeks ago, rules seemed okay, some streamlining there.
Speaking of historical minis. It was interesting that some people were apparently getting Heroscape for the Redcoat and Rebel minis to play some sort of historical battles.
Quote from: Omega;699406Speaking of historical minis. It was interesting that some people were apparently getting Heroscape for the Redcoat and Rebel minis to play some sort of historical battles.
Nothing wrong with Heroscape minis. Cheap, and better than all the D&D minis produced by Wizards.
I just don't care for the game. I have a few samurai and other odds and ends. They are cool.
I don't know if "underwhelmed" is how I'd describe my response to Kings of War. It's draw backs are its design goals. It really is fast playing and handles huge armies well. With some practice it even works more or less okay for small games. Sure the strategy at that point boils down to one big cheap unit to serve as an anchor / tar pit and lots of little units to try getting a numerical superiority to allow flank charges.
As a design I think it's a success.
But it's more abstract than I'd like and things like sieges and defended obstacles are wonky they work in play. Note that I didn't say they make sense or look right or play out how one would think that they should but they do work in terms of a balanced abstraction.
And it's just so...bland...
Yes armies have their own character to an extent but there's sure a lot of Me 4+ Ms - De 4+ out there.
Really getting into the Oldhammer community these days, the OSR of wargaming I guess.
I have seen a few blog posts about Oldhammer here and there, sounds like fun. I just have a hard time tracking down any of the 1st-3rd editions of the game, at least for a decent price anyway. Also I highly doubt I would find anyone interested in my area.
Honestly I will likely be doing most of my wargaming solo for the foreseable future. I have thought about doing Warhammer setting with another rule set, Rally Round the King, it's fairly easy and is designed with solo gaming in mind. I can also do it in 15mm and use mini's besides GW's.
I'd never played Warhammer until a friend got me interested in 3rd edition a couple years back. I've been able to pick up all the books for pretty darn cheap (except the Realms of Chaos stuff which luckily I already owned for 40K/WFRP). At any given moment some joker has them up on Ebay for a ridiculous price, but if you're patient they come along much lower.
I really like the flavor of the 2nd and 3rd edition rules... lots of fun optional stuff like being able to bribe mercenary bands into switching sides mid-battle... and baggage trains, the baggage train rules were what really sold me on getting into it.
Based on what I've heard 3rd is much more aimed at scenario/story-based games than later versions where the 'tournament' mindset crept in.
Quote from: Simlasa;700958Based on what I've heard 3rd is much more aimed at scenario/story-based games than later versions where the 'tournament' mindset crept in.
The last version of the rules I saw (8th?) seemed to have really cut back on the tournament stuff and gone back to interesting scenarios and weird random stuff.
I have the 8th edition core book, though I dare say I don't know enough about wargaming to say wether or not they are tournament oriented. It seems like a solid game just too damned expensive, and no one in my area is cool with using non GW minis. The setting always intersted me much more than anything else so I really think my solution is going to be using Rally Round the King to do battles in that setting solo with 15mm miniatures. There are plenty of ranges out there that would work and I can get a decent chunk of an army for the price of a box of GW state troops.
Quote from: Arkansan;701287It seems like a solid game just too damned expensive, and no one in my area is cool with using non GW minis. The setting always intersted me much more than anything else so I really think my solution is going to be using Rally Round the King to do battles in that setting solo with 15mm miniatures. There are plenty of ranges out there that would work and I can get a decent chunk of an army for the price of a box of GW state troops.
The rent is too damn high!
Quote from: Arkansan;699849I have seen a few blog posts about Oldhammer here and there, sounds like fun. I just have a hard time tracking down any of the 1st-3rd editions of the game, at least for a decent price anyway. Also I highly doubt I would find anyone interested in my area.
Honestly I will likely be doing most of my wargaming solo for the foreseable future. I have thought about doing Warhammer setting with another rule set, Rally Round the King, it's fairly easy and is designed with solo gaming in mind. I can also do it in 15mm and use mini's besides GW's.
Yeah I even found a place that does 15mm Skaven.
If you're having a hard time finding a copy of 3rd, though, there is a retroclone in the works among the OH community. Bing "B.L.O.O.D."
Thanks for the heads up, I will look into it.
That video sums up basically all the reasons our entire store collectively stopped playing GW when warmachine comes out. One exciting thing I see is a massive increase in skirmish level games which is creating 3 distinct and healthy types of players.
- Casual: I've seen at least 2 people who would have never got into wargames do so because of the lower barrier to entry. I never ever saw a single person casually drop the money for a full GW army with the intent to play every so often.
- Drifters: Many folks take advantage of the low cost of skirmish games to actually play multiple games.
- Hardcore! I still see plenty of people that just go full bore on a single game and instead of dropping thousands on a single army get the chance to own many armies at their fullest.
Historicals seem pretty neat but there just isn't any support in the area for it.
Quote from: sethdrebitko;706030Historicals seem pretty neat but there just isn't any support in the area for it.
Western minis games seem to be on the slight upswing. Aside from that. Have not seen a big historical minis wargame in ages. Last I saw was one of the big civil War minis games a friend played heavily back in the 90s.
I'd just like to weigh on in GW real quick: fuck them, fuck their Scientology-like business model (drain money from the faithful, quash dissent, always be on the PR attack and never defense, sue sue sue anyone who so much as publishes something that rhymes with a term they think they own, and so forth) and most of all: FUCK. FINECAST.
The problem with historicals is that they tend to be pretty specific in terms of who is fighting who. Of course, it's not an absolute limitation. At my store we recently ran the Romanian invasion of Finland and the Finish counter strike using Flames of War. I knew we shouldn't have taken that wrong turn at Abaqurerie.
Anyhow, Flames of War is the big name in WWII right now and pretty common place but I suspect Battlegroup from The Plastic Soldier Company is going to over take them due to better prices, better kits, and more detailed / realistic rules. The Fall of the Reich book is out this month and I think that will be the big turning point as it's a period more people play.
Warlord's Hail Ceaser, Pike and Shotte, Black Powder, and Bolt Action are all very accessible and well supported. They're all by Rick Priestly who designed Warhammer in the first place and he's a very competent designer.
Quote from: David Johansen;706456The problem with historicals is that they tend to be pretty specific in terms of who is fighting who. Of course, it's not an absolute limitation. At my store we recently ran the Romanian invasion of Finland and the Finish counter strike using Flames of War. I knew we shouldn't have taken that wrong turn at Abaqurerie.
Perhaps that is why HeroScapes historical units caught on with some players. You could goof around as you pleased just laying out sides and having at it. Or actually recreate historical events within the limits of the terrain availible. But the base game did not lock you down.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;706420I'd just like to weigh on in GW real quick: fuck them, fuck their Scientology-like business model (drain money from the faithful, quash dissent, always be on the PR attack and never defense, sue sue sue anyone who so much as publishes something that rhymes with a term they think they own, and so forth) and most of all: FUCK. FINECAST.
Finecast is dead! (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?36951-Finecast-is-Dead)
Quote from: Blackhand;709194Finecast is dead! (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?36951-Finecast-is-Dead)
Can't say I'll miss it.
I got out of GW before Finecast was introduced, now I've heard nothing good about it. Sounds like a massive miscalculation.
GW being GW, I don't expect we'll see a big sale on the remaining Finecast stock. ;)
Quote from: VectorSigma;709756GW being GW, I don't expect we'll see a big sale on the remaining Finecast stock. ;)
It's probably going to be rebranded "limited run" and marked up 40%.