Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 24, 2023, 01:32:15 AM

Quote from: silencio789 on March 23, 2023, 06:06:59 AM
I think drama is not simulation but will and should reflect the society performing it, and indeed may be more about that society than the original creators could have imagined.

We should cast a mix of people in our dramas since we are a society of mixed peoples.

This need not be the same at all times nor statistically accurate on a piece by piece, indeed it is very likely to need to not be so and do over represent  and under represent.

I agree. In another situation, I would not care about a black Aragorn. But in this time and place, I think it's a racist choice, driven by hateful people.

Regarding the MtG set, I don't have it and don't know anything about the creators - so I don't necessarily disagree. But there have been a lot of other mixed race portrayals that I've seen.

I mentioned earlier casting choices like in the MCU movies or Rings of Power. Since the majority of the leading heroes are white, I don't interpret this as anti-white racism. It seems clear in these cases that they're intentionally making characters a mix. Can you give other examples of what you'd consider racist choices?

Quote from: jhkim on March 24, 2023, 02:34:32 PM

Quote from: DocJones on March 24, 2023, 02:19:36 PM

Quote from: Trond on March 24, 2023, 07:51:21 AM
Disney is race swapping Snow White, let that sink in. 😄

It's a shame that we'll never see Scarlet Johansson as Foxy Brown, because it only swaps one way.

I mean, we saw Johansson starring as Motoko Kusanagi just a few years ago.

That's allowed because the Japanese are as horrible as white people. 
You should know that. ;-)

What would happen if they race swapped Rosie Grier and Ray Milland?


We were conquering racism in the 70's and I remember the 1980's when racism was almost dead
...until Obama and the progressives democrats brought it back in 2009.

Quote from: jhkim on March 24, 2023, 02:34:32 PM

Quote from: DocJones on March 24, 2023, 02:19:36 PM

Quote from: Trond on March 24, 2023, 07:51:21 AM
Disney is race swapping Snow White, let that sink in. 😄

It's a shame that we'll never see Scarlet Johansson as Foxy Brown, because it only swaps one way.

I mean, we saw Johansson starring as Motoko Kusanagi just a few years ago.

A particularly bad example, since GITS dwells on identity and souls in a future with artificial bodies.

QuoteSince she has a full cybernetic body, she is not certain her ghost - her soul - retains any humanity. In fact, she speculates on the possibility that she's entirely synthetic, with artificially generated memories designed to fool her into thinking she was once human.

https://ghostintheshell.fandom.com/wiki/Motoko_Kusanagi

Quote from: jhkim on March 24, 2023, 02:39:32 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 24, 2023, 01:32:15 AM

Quote from: silencio789 on March 23, 2023, 06:06:59 AM
I think drama is not simulation but will and should reflect the society performing it, and indeed may be more about that society than the original creators could have imagined.

We should cast a mix of people in our dramas since we are a society of mixed peoples.

This need not be the same at all times nor statistically accurate on a piece by piece, indeed it is very likely to need to not be so and do over represent  and under represent.

I agree. In another situation, I would not care about a black Aragorn. But in this time and place, I think it's a racist choice, driven by hateful people.

Regarding the MtG set, I don't have it and don't know anything about the creators - so I don't necessarily disagree. But there have been a lot of other mixed race portrayals that I've seen.

I mentioned earlier casting choices like in the MCU movies or Rings of Power. Since the majority of the leading heroes are white, I don't interpret this as anti-white racism. It seems clear in these cases that they're intentionally making characters a mix. Can you give other examples of what you'd consider racist choices?

I haven't watched Rings of Power, but from the promo material and stuff I have seen second hand, it does strike me as racist choices. That kind of cloying, forced "diversity" which is driven by politics and a lack of creativity.

For those who don't play Magic, the in-game universe is a multiverse, composed of thousands of separate planes of existence, with only a few special individuals (planeswalkers) able to travel between them. For the most part, each set of cards is set in one of these planes. About half of the sets released so far are set in planes explicitly based on real world mythologies, fables, and stories from a particular culture. Thus far, none of the sets takes place on a plane inspired by sub-Saharan African cultures and mythologies (one plane is based on Egyptian myths). The same is true for Native American myths (one plane has a continent based on Aztec culture, but the set also had a faction of vampires inspired by Spanish conquistadors, so we didn't have a set entirely devoted to them). There are dozens of planes mentioned or visited briefly in the lore, so such a plane might very well exist, but I couldn't find one, nor has a full set been made of one.
In addition, planes based on European myths will often have native characters resembling sub-Saharan Africans, while planes based on other myths will not (except perhaps for planeswalkers visiting from other planes, i.e. not natives).
I could be wrong about that second part, but I'm fairly certain. I played a lot of games in the Tarkir set (based on east Asian cultures), and took a look through the catalogue of cards from Kamigawa (Japan). The only black person I could find in the latter one was Tezzeret, a planeswalker from a different plane.

What was the point of bringing all this up?

When the first Kamigawa set came out, all the way back in 2004, Wizards caught some flak for making the lore of the setting too close to real world cultures, with many accusing them of insensitivity. Specifically, the story focuses on conflict between mortals and spirits, based heavily in Shintoism, which is still practiced by people today.
Despite their claims to wanting to promote diversity and inclusion, I don't believe WotC will produce a set based and focused on fantasy representation of sub-Saharan African or Native American myths. The reason for this is that any attempt to do so will be met with cries of racism and misrepresentation from far-left wokescolds. It won't matter how many cultural consultants they hire, something will ruffle someone's jimmies, and they'll stir up a shit-storm. Actually, it wouldn't matter if their representation was perfect, because:
A) wokescolds will look for things to be offended by
B) in order to create an interesting world with conflict, someone will have to be the bad guy, or represent evil and malicious forces in the world. These factions and cards will be accused of promoting negative stereotypes of whatever ethnic group the set is based on.

There's one way they can do it though, and I've already mentioned an example of how. If they make the central conflict if the story invasion from a culture based on Europeans, who can then be the bad guys. In Ixalan, the Aztec inspired Sun Empire does not, to my knowledge, perform human sacrifices or raids on weaker tribes (if they do, it isn't represented or referenced heavily). Meanwhile, the Spanish inspired vampires have come over to this continent to retake a McGuffin. To be fair, they aren't categorically evil, and the thing they want was theirs originally (stolen and relocated by a planeswalker, not the Sun Empire), but in the end they are invading another continent.
I believe this is the method WotC will go with if they ever do make an African or American inspired plane. Magic sets always have some central conflict with 4+ factions. By adding European inspired invaders, they can avoid having one of the native factions be antagonistic, malicious, or demonic (there's usually one or more).

Which is a long, rambling way of explaining why they made black Aragorn and others. They want to include black people, but don't want to/are too afraid to give them a dedicated story.

Quote from: jhkim on March 24, 2023, 02:34:32 PMI mean, we saw Johansson starring as Motoko Kusanagi just a few years ago.

Well, I can tell YOU'VE never actually seen Ghost in the Shell. Kusanagi's full body combat prosthesis was NOT designed to look Asian. That was purposely expounded upon in the Oshii movie in 1995. She has black hair, light skin, blue eyes and they're NOT with epicanthic folds. An EXACT model of her shell is what The Puppet Master dived into and its blonde haired and blue eyed.

OK, fair points about Ghost in the Shell. It was indeed a bad example. I made an off-the-cuff post that popped to mind when Johansson was mentioned. Sorry about that.

Keeping on Lord of the Rings...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 25, 2023, 12:33:12 AM

Quote from: jhkimI mentioned earlier casting choices like in the MCU movies or Rings of Power. Since the majority of the leading heroes are white, I don't interpret this as anti-white racism. It seems clear in these cases that they're intentionally making characters a mix. Can you give other examples of what you'd consider racist choices?

I haven't watched Rings of Power, but from the promo material and stuff I have seen second hand, it does strike me as racist choices. That kind of cloying, forced "diversity" which is driven by politics and a lack of creativity.

I've seen it. I think calling a lack of creativity is fair. However, uncreative isn't the same thing as racist. I have heard complaints about hating white people, but here, the vast majority of the heroes are white - Galadriel, Elrond, Durin, Gandalf, and the harfoot Nori.

What's known as color-blind casting was introduced decades ago in theater and film, starting with Shakespeare and opera companies giving some token roles to non-white actors while retelling the same traditional European stories. I don't see the practice as racist against white people, nor do I see it as especially progressive.

Quote from: Wheetaye on March 25, 2023, 12:39:30 PM
I believe this is the method WotC will go with if they ever do make an African or American inspired plane. Magic sets always have some central conflict with 4+ factions. By adding European inspired invaders, they can avoid having one of the native factions be antagonistic, malicious, or demonic (there's usually one or more).

Which is a long, rambling way of explaining why they made black Aragorn and others. They want to include black people, but don't want to/are too afraid to give them a dedicated story.

I haven't seen this MtG set, but this does sound probable. I would phrase it more that they think that the mixed-race Lord of the Rings set will make more money than a dedicated African or Native American themed set. It's an uncreative approach - but then creativity isn't always what sells best. Tolkien isn't dull inherently, but he's been done to death umpteen times, so any straight adaptation isn't likely creative. Having characters be a mix of races is also old hat from decades of color-blind casting as an occasional option in theater and film.

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2023, 02:56:12 AM
OK, fair points about Ghost in the Shell. It was indeed a bad example. I made an off-the-cuff post that popped to mind when Johansson was mentioned. Sorry about that.

Keeping on Lord of the Rings...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 25, 2023, 12:33:12 AM

Quote from: jhkimI mentioned earlier casting choices like in the MCU movies or Rings of Power. Since the majority of the leading heroes are white, I don't interpret this as anti-white racism. It seems clear in these cases that they're intentionally making characters a mix. Can you give other examples of what you'd consider racist choices?

I haven't watched Rings of Power, but from the promo material and stuff I have seen second hand, it does strike me as racist choices. That kind of cloying, forced "diversity" which is driven by politics and a lack of creativity.

I've seen it. I think calling a lack of creativity is fair. However, uncreative isn't the same thing as racist. I have heard complaints about hating white people, but here, the vast majority of the heroes are white - Galadriel, Elrond, Durin, Gandalf, and the harfoot Nori.

What's known as color-blind casting was introduced decades ago in theater and film, starting with Shakespeare and opera companies giving some token roles to non-white actors while retelling the same traditional European stories. I don't see the practice as racist against white people, nor do I see it as especially progressive.

Quote from: Wheetaye on March 25, 2023, 12:39:30 PM
I believe this is the method WotC will go with if they ever do make an African or American inspired plane. Magic sets always have some central conflict with 4+ factions. By adding European inspired invaders, they can avoid having one of the native factions be antagonistic, malicious, or demonic (there's usually one or more).

Which is a long, rambling way of explaining why they made black Aragorn and others. They want to include black people, but don't want to/are too afraid to give them a dedicated story.

I haven't seen this MtG set, but this does sound probable. I would phrase it more that they think that the mixed-race Lord of the Rings set will make more money than a dedicated African or Native American themed set. It's an uncreative approach - but then creativity isn't always what sells best. Tolkien isn't dull inherently, but he's been done to death umpteen times, so any straight adaptation isn't likely creative. Having characters be a mix of races is also old hat from decades of color-blind casting as an occasional option in theater and film.

Weak comparison, John.  Shakespeare swapping is done for Acting.  By definition, no Shakespearean actor is a Royal Dane, or a Scottish Warlord, or a Magician.  White, Black, Brown, Yellow or Red, none of them are anywhere near their characters, the White boy matches only skin color.  So what does race-swapping accomplish?  It allows non-white actors to show/learn their skills, and proves that the underlying motivations and emotions in Shakespeare are universal - they are no more restricted to race then they are to time.  See Kurosawa.

White Executives don't think Imaro or Dossouye by Charles Saunders will sell, so to pay lip service to DEI and ESG they raceswap White characters into Black, to the cheers of well-off Y and Zers who have no fucking clue who Charles Saunders, Octavia Butler or Steven Barnes even are.  Black people cheer on Wakanda, a creation of White men, when the world of Steven Barnes' Lion's Blood lies ignored.

A decade ago, Kevin Crawford threw down the gauntlet with Spears of the Dawn.  You don't like fantasy worlds inspired by a certain culture?  Write your own, here's a bunch of Indesign templates and artwork you can use for free.  What was the response - mostly crickets.

Mike Pondsmith and Jerry Grayson were always there but not really Afrocentric.  Now there's Coyote and Crow, Stealing Jordan, Motherlands MMO and a bunch of other POC projects that reference their culture and their experience.  They don't need White people's help, but like all good business owners they'll take anyone's money.

This race-swapping bullshit?  This is white racism by wealthy whites who think getting "White Leftovers" is "Equity".

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2023, 02:56:12 AM
OK, fair points about Ghost in the Shell. It was indeed a bad example. I made an off-the-cuff post that popped to mind when Johansson was mentioned. Sorry about that.

Keeping on Lord of the Rings...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 25, 2023, 12:33:12 AM

Quote from: jhkimI mentioned earlier casting choices like in the MCU movies or Rings of Power. Since the majority of the leading heroes are white, I don't interpret this as anti-white racism. It seems clear in these cases that they're intentionally making characters a mix. Can you give other examples of what you'd consider racist choices?

I haven't watched Rings of Power, but from the promo material and stuff I have seen second hand, it does strike me as racist choices. That kind of cloying, forced "diversity" which is driven by politics and a lack of creativity.

I've seen it. I think calling a lack of creativity is fair. However, uncreative isn't the same thing as racist.

No, but in this case, it's part of the same phenomenon. Lack of creativity and a desire to shoehorn "colored" characters into roles to intentionally replace white characters, because they lack the creativity and skill to make original "colored" characters that are interesting.

QuoteI have heard complaints about hating white people, but here, the vast majority of the heroes are white - Galadriel, Elrond, Durin, Gandalf, and the harfoot Nori.

So, do you think that because they didn't replace all the white characters, that is some evidence that this isn't ideologically driven? I suspect they're smart enough to not alienate the whole fan base all at once. I mean, "Magic The Gathering: KILL WHITEY!" edition might give the game away.

Quote from: crkrueger on March 26, 2023, 06:49:07 AM

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2023, 02:56:12 AM
What's known as color-blind casting was introduced decades ago in theater and film, starting with Shakespeare and opera companies giving some token roles to non-white actors while retelling the same traditional European stories. I don't see the practice as racist against white people, nor do I see it as especially progressive.

Weak comparison, John.  Shakespeare swapping is done for Acting.  By definition, no Shakespearean actor is a Royal Dane, or a Scottish Warlord, or a Magician.  White, Black, Brown, Yellow or Red, none of them are anywhere near their characters, the White boy matches only skin color.  So what does race-swapping accomplish?  It allows non-white actors to show/learn their skills, and proves that the underlying motivations and emotions in Shakespeare are universal - they are no more restricted to race then they are to time.  See Kurosawa.

White Executives don't think Imaro or Dossouye by Charles Saunders will sell, so to pay lip service to DEI and ESG they raceswap White characters into Black, to the cheers of well-off Y and Zers who have no fucking clue who Charles Saunders, Octavia Butler or Steven Barnes even are.

Quote from: crkrueger on March 26, 2023, 06:49:07 AM
This race-swapping bullshit?  This is white racism by wealthy whites who think getting "White Leftovers" is "Equity".

It's reasonable to complain that wringing out yet another Tolkien adaptation or Shakespeare adaptation is unoriginal "leftovers" -- or in general that corporate-produced media tends to be rehashes of age-old properties from 60+ years ago. However, white people are *also* getting unoriginal rehashed stuff. So yes, I think it is equitable in that sense.

Under your critique, it seems like marketing yet another Tolkien rehash with all-white characters is OK, but marketing yet another Tolkien rehash with mixed-race characters is awful because it should be original or at least adapting something new. That seems to me like a double standard. And somehow you don't apply it to Shakespeare - where you say a mixed-race Shakespeare cast is acceptable.

I'd love to see adaptations of Saunders, Butler, or Barnes (for black authors) as well as adaptations of more variety of white authors as well. But if we're going to keep getting rehashes of 60+ year old properties, I think mixed-race adaptations are just as valid as all-white adaptations. They're going to typically be tired and unoriginal rehashes, but 90% of everything is shit - including original works.

Here's a fixed version of one of the cards:



Credit to SensibleTJ.

Greetings!

I think a great deal of the constant fucking race mixing and race swapping is pure, political bullshit. Many programs, movies, whatever media vehicle--even in umpteenth rehashings--should maintain their focus and integrity by remaining true to the original theme and foundation. I prefer that approach, and believe such artistic projects are far superior to the fucking racial mish-mash approach promoted by all of these Woke morons.

I don't want to see an endless parade of black this, black that, white empowered woman that, rainbow hippo something else.

I've seen *many* films, for example, where the setting is Mongolian, Central Asian, Indian, or Chinese--and guess what? Not ONE rainbow hippo, not one white person, and not one black person is to be seen. And, as an added bonus, the men are all masculine and strong, and the women are feminine and normal--and even when the women are doing something heroic or extraordinary--there is zero empowered feminist BS being shoved down your throat.

Pure, glorious ethnic programs and media--without any of the ideological BS. It *can* be done, and has been done, by many, for years and years. Just not here in cucked America. It's very refreshing and enjoyable to experience such mediums where the programs are entirely true to their ethnic and cultural roots and foundations.

I've also seen a few BLACK AFRICAN programs--and not ONE White person in them. Or anything that is stupid Woe politics.

That kind of focus, artistic discipline, and authenticity of context is what is missing in the majority of anything made in America anymore.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Zelen on March 27, 2023, 08:33:36 PMHere's a fixed version of one of the cards:

Credit to SensibleTJ.

Saw that and its definitely an improvement...except for the beard (sad to say).

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2023, 08:58:25 PM
I've seen *many* films, for example, where the setting is Mongolian, Central Asian, Indian, or Chinese--and guess what? Not ONE rainbow hippo, not one white person, and not one black person is to be seen. And, as an added bonus, the men are all masculine and strong, and the women are feminine and normal--and even when the women are doing something heroic or extraordinary--there is zero empowered feminist BS being shoved down your throat.

Pure, glorious ethnic programs and media--without any of the ideological BS.

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2023, 08:58:25 PM
That kind of focus, artistic discipline, and authenticity of context is what is missing in the majority of anything made in America anymore.

I don't know what films you're thinking of, but usually it's the exact opposite. From what I've seen, Chinese films and Indian films are often highly ideological -- it's just that foreigners often don't recognize the ideological war that's being projected. Mainland Chinese cinema projects the government's myth that China is a monoculture without ethnic minorities like the Zhuang or Uyghur. Bollywood is also often seen as projecting a unified or at least moderate culture. Despite being in Hindi, they often downplay Hindu faith to the point of accusations of anti-Hindu bias and promoting Muslim stars. The Indian film board frequently censors independent movies for political content.

Internally, there is a lot of controversy over how films are biased compared to the reality of the country. The U.S. is about 60% white, so inclusion of the 40% non-white minority is often an issue. In India, about 40% of the population speaks Hindi vs Urdu and other languages - and about 80% of the population is Hindu. Those ethnic/linguistic/religious lines are usually the problems.

I feel this is like suggesting that 1950s American films and TV were non-ideological.

Quote from: Wheetaye on March 25, 2023, 12:39:30 PM
....
Which is a long, rambling way of explaining why they made black Aragorn and others. They want to include black people, but don't want to/are too afraid to give them a dedicated story.

Notice how afraid they are of left-wing criticism (they practically bend over backwards to avoid it), but not right-wing.