Quote from: Benoist;506329You mean the least GM castration? I think I'd nominate OD&D (1974) for that, partly by design, and partly by accident and/or tradition (like the fact that it's linked to Chainmail and basically is predicated on the notion you will act as a wargames referee and house rule the game as you go).

Don't bother Beno. By arguing with It you make an assumption that:

1) It does not come here only to troll.
2) It does not sniff glue, riding Itself of any thought.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;506268You don't get out much, do you?

Weirdo.

QuoteBecause that is after all the premise of the thread.

No, it was a refutation of Two Fishes statement that it was a PA trope.

QuoteNo wait, it's the only point about this mess you were capable of arguing. Then by all means don't let me stop you

Keep drinking that coolaid!

QuoteDude, you volunteered for the war the minute you started posting on theRPGsite. But stay focused soldier, and you'll make it through.

and you're different how, exactly?

Oh yes, you come here once a few months to say how above it you are.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;506154My opinions were solely about the "sex for mechanical bonus" mechanic as a matter of game design.

snap

Anyone who's slightly curious about my opinion on the "commit sex for a mechanical benefit" mechanic, need only read them for an analysis of the mechanic, why it fails, and 3 better ideas to replace it.

Ok Daddy, I got you wrong. I think I agree with you here. I dont find the "sex-rules" so bad really, but I also dont find it really inspiring mechanicaly nor thematically appropriate.  

Quote from: VectorSigmaThat's all well and good, but I only give a shit about the author's design goals insomuch as they jibe with my at-the-table goals.

Agreed.

Quote from: RincewindAnd that is the problem - commentary. When you get a copy of Call of Cthulhu, it oozes a specific mood and theme of the game - you have Sanity mechanic, you have very deadly combat, you have monsters that have attacks like "Tentacle, 100% - kill 1d4 investigators". But do the creators of Call of Cthulhu bother to tell you, that if you use those rules straight - ahead to deliver a dungeon crawling game, you will probably not get a very good mechanic for it?

No, because writers of Call of Cthulhu do not presume they need to "comment" on their game - because commentary is where postmodern shit becomes postmodern art.

This I cannot agree with.

If we were talking about boardgames or cargames, ok, I would agree, since in these type of games the rules tend to automatically translate into the playing-style. But with roleplaying-games its a differnt story. Everyone that has played a couple of games in this hobby knows that its a very common thing for a player to bring a whole package of playing assumptions and pre-conceptions (that he probably absorbed with his first games and groups) and replicate it to all games he meets thereafter, simply ignoring Gamemastering/How to Run the Game chapters - and thats OK for most games, really. EXCEPT for a game that adjudicates a very specific playing style, as is the case of Apocalypse World. So, in this case, I find not only valid, but mandatory, that the "commentary" on how to use these rules be present on the book.

So, I think we will have to agree to disagree here.

*shrug* I tried to dissuade you, and you still buy into AW's theories. Go out and have fun with the game then, but expect no applause from me. You bought into the illusion of the Special Flower game. But if you have fun with it - good.

Quote from: One Horse Town;506343No, it was a refutation of Two Fishes statement that it was a PA trope.

No, you have a drum you like to beat, and you're using a comment I made in passing as an excuse to beat it. Here i'll make an actual assertion for your benefit. I think that the sex moves cheapen sex in the game. They make it into a commodity, and make it more difficult for the player to create sincere intimacy for their PCs. I think this is very fitting to the post-apoc genre. I wouldn't go so far as  to call it a trope of the genre, but it definitely fits my sense of what PA is all about. It fits with the whole question of whether or not people can maintain humanity and decency in the face of scarcity and the struggle just to survive. I'm sure you will disagree, but i'm equally sure that I do not care.

First you said it, then you denied it, then you admitted it, now you don't.

1, 2, 3, or 4?

Quote from: Rincewind1;506355*shrug* I tried to dissuade you, and you still buy into AW's theories. Go out and have fun with the game then, but expect no applause from me. You bought into the illusion of the Special Flower game. But if you have fun with it - good.

I'm sure he'll really enjoy the game, purely to spite you.

Quote from: two_fishes;506369I think that the sex moves cheapen sex in the game. They make it into a commodity, and make it more difficult for the player to create sincere intimacy for their PCs. I think this is very fitting to the post-apoc genre. I wouldn't go so far as  to call it a trope of the genre, but it definitely fits my sense of what PA is all about. It fits with the whole question of whether or not people can maintain humanity and decency in the face of scarcity and the struggle just to survive.

Ok, I admit it makes sense (in a Blindness way.. you know.. the book by Saramago ?).

But I dont think its mechanical counterpart makes sense and fits well with the system as a whole. It sounds forced to me.

Quote*shrug* I tried to dissuade you, and you still buy into AW's theories. Go out and have fun with the game then, but expect no applause from me. You bought into the illusion of the Special Flower game. But if you have fun with it - good.

Hey Rince, come on. You didnt even read the game, man. Try it. Who knows? Maybe you even like it.

Quote from: Ladybird;506374I'm sure he'll really enjoy the game, purely to spite you.

I thing you give me more credit then I deserve. I'd love nothing more then for this to be true, for as a certain genius of English language said - better bad press, then no press at all.

Then again, I'm no bloody Pope of RPGs to have to give out blessings and whatsonot, or for them to matter . But I will warn against the advice of AW and their ilk.

Quote from: silva;506352Ok Daddy, I got you wrong.

Thank you for being even-tempered enough to say that.

Quote from: silva;506352I think I agree with you here. I dont find the "sex-rules" so bad really, but I also dont find it really inspiring mechanicaly nor thematically appropriate.

And that's fine. Agree or disagree, you were both sincere enough to seek clarification, and well-tempered enough to listen when I said you misunderstood me. Both of those I appreciate very much.

And I'll say it again:

Your game. Your rules. Your fun.

Enjoy AW, however you choose to play it. No matter what anyone says.

One nit: The other two quotes in your reply aren't from me. (I don't think. I don't remember saying them.) Without attribution, it makes it seem as if they are. If you have the time, I wouldn't mind clearing that possible misunderstanding up.

Quote from: silva;506376Ok, I admit it makes sense (in a Blindness way.. you know.. the book by Saramago ?).

Yeah I can see the connection. I do see a kind of theme running through a few of Vincent Baker's games. He often has mechanical temptations to do the wrong thing built into the game. In Dogs in the Vinyard it's violence. In Poison'd it's, I dunno, just everything, I guess. And then you see it here too. I think there's an implicit question asking the players, Will you do what's easy and benefitting you but wrong, or will you do what's difficult but right?

Quote from: chaosvoyager;506268So what? The situation is still far worse with traditional games and their linear adventures. But why do traditional games have so many adventures of that kind anyway? Seriously, it's endemic. There should be a rule against it.

Regular games are not made to "tell stories", that is not their goal.  If story happens, it is a coincidental byproduct.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;506412Regular games are not made to "tell stories", that is not their goal.  If story happens, it is a coincidental byproduct.

I happen to agree with this.

But AW is still an RPG.

Quote from: Chaosvoyager

Quote from: BenoistWhat I'm going to do instead is post about stuff like "how to make a Cthulhu adventure that isn't a railroad" at some point.

Excellent, because the main rulebook doesn't exactly provide a lot of guidance on this.

Just saw this now. Yes, this touches my earlier point about the default linear/railroady playing-style suggested in the GM´s / "How to Play" chapters in most games. But then, as Butcher, Two-Fishes and Elliot Willen said, it was (is ?) kind of the norm in the industry (from mid-80s until now ?).

Here in Brazil the situation was worst. Without internet and Amazon, the hobby consisted of GURPs, AD&D and Vampire. I didnt knew more "sandboxy/open-ended" style games/modules like Griffin Mountain and Wilderlands of High Fantasy existed until the late-90s.

Quote from: silva;506472Just saw this now. Yes, this touches my earlier point about the default linear/railroady playing-style suggested in the GM´s / "How to Play" chapters in most games. But then, as Butcher, Two-Fishes and Elliot Willen said, it was (is ?) kind of the norm in the industry (from mid-80s until now ?).

Here in Brazil the situation was worst. Without internet and Amazon, the hobby consisted of GURPs, AD&D and Vampire. I didnt knew more "sandboxy/open-ended" style games/modules like Griffin Mountain and Wilderlands of High Fantasy existed until the late-90s.

I had not bought a single module outside Warhammer line, and yet I can easily grasp a concept of sandbox. It's really not that hard - 3e's DMB gives advice how to do it.

Call of Cthulhu is an investigative game, so obviously the sandbox willbe a bit limited (there is a finite amount of ways how you can analyse something, or pick up a clue), but it's doable. I'd need to read it's GMing advice section to give a specific commentary how well it supports it.