Quote from: jeff37923;354511This seems to be a Gross Conceptual Error. How can something that encourages the emulation of the behaviors of Gang Rape be considered anti-rape?

Because in enacting the Gang Rape, everyone realises how awful it is for both victim and perpetrator, lessons are learned, tears flow, and a group hug is enacted. Presumably.

I suppose it's analagous to how making films (ostensibly as entertainment) about the Vietnam war is really anti-war. Think of Gang Rape as the jeepform equivalent of Platoon.

I'm amazed at all the outrage in this thread - it should be perfectly obvious that this is the purpose of the game. Just read what the creator wrote. I reiterate: I think the idea is utterly ludicrous for a host of reasons, but it is highly moral.

Quote from: Cranewings;354501I wonder how many guys that have played the game have said, "wow, being gang raped is bad. I should stop supporting it."

Man, if only I could play this game, I could learn so much about this important issue, and a little bit about myself in the process. Oh well. The link is down. I guess I'll just have to spend the rest of my life Pro-Rape.

Quote from: noisms;354527Because in enacting the Gang Rape, everyone realises how awful it is for both victim and perpetrator, lessons are learned, tears flow, and a group hug is enacted. Presumably.

I suppose it's analagous to how making films (ostensibly as entertainment) about the Vietnam war is really anti-war. Think of Gang Rape as the jeepform equivalent of Platoon.

I'm amazed at all the outrage in this thread - it should be perfectly obvious that this is the purpose of the game. Just read what the creator wrote. I reiterate: I think the idea is utterly ludicrous for a host of reasons, but it is highly moral.

You do understand how absolutely fucking stupid this justification sounds, right?

If you have to go so far as to live action role-play the act of gang rape in order to get it through to someone that gang rape is bad, then you may as well admit that the moral and ethical backbone of that society (and the people you have to go to that length to reach) is as fucked up as a soup sandwich. Some things should not need this level of explanation and direct experience.

Quote from: jeff37923;354549You do understand how absolutely fucking stupid this justification sounds, right?

If you have to go so far as to live action role-play the act of gang rape in order to get it through to someone that gang rape is bad, then you may as well admit that the moral and ethical backbone of that society (and the people you have to go to that length to reach) is as fucked up as a soup sandwich. Some things should not need this level of explanation and direct experience.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say that I personally think the entire idea is ridiculous. I have many times in this thread. You're preaching to the converted.

To be fair I think the goal is slightly more subtle than "make people realise rape is bad". It seems to extend to "make people realise rape is so bad that it motivates them to agitate for reform of the criminal justice system in Sweden so that more convictions for rape are secured". Which is also ridiculous, but perhaps ever so slightly less so.

Quote from: noisms;354720I'm not sure how many times I have to say that I personally think the entire idea is ridiculous. I have many times in this thread. You're preaching to the converted.

To be fair I think the goal is slightly more subtle than "make people realise rape is bad". It seems to extend to "make people realise rape is so bad that it motivates them to agitate for reform of the criminal justice system in Sweden so that more convictions for rape are secured". Which is also ridiculous, but perhaps ever so slightly less so.

Which is the really big problem here.  The game you describe would be called "CSI: Oslo" or "Law and Order: Stockholm Sex Squad" or any of a thousand different titles.  Ones that concentrate on their stated goal: the low rate of conviction.  This jeepform has nothing to do with any of that, just a bizarre set of mechanics that 'emulate' gang rape via really wild misconceptions.

It is as if I were to write a jeepform called "Bloemfontein Banging" to raise awareness of the government's tacit approval of underage forced sex slaves in South Africa, and all the rules concerned shouting lurid details about the sex acts the participants are 'performing' on the player of the '10/12/14yr old child'.  There is no connection between what the author states and what the session is about.

Quote from: StormBringer;354723Which is the really big problem here.  The game you describe would be called "CSI: Oslo" or "Law and Order: Stockholm Sex Squad" or any of a thousand different titles.  Ones that concentrate on their stated goal: the low rate of conviction.  This jeepform has nothing to do with any of that, just a bizarre set of mechanics that 'emulate' gang rape via really wild misconceptions.

It is as if I were to write a jeepform called "Bloemfontein Banging" to raise awareness of the government's tacit approval of underage forced sex slaves in South Africa, and all the rules concerned shouting lurid details about the sex acts the participants are 'performing' on the player of the '10/12/14yr old child'.  There is no connection between what the author states and what the session is about.

Ah, you've been reading your Roland Barthes, haven't you? The Death of the Author! Or should it be the Death of the Designer?

Actually your Bloemfontein Banging is quite a good analogy (although I think Bloemfontein is quite a nice city, isn't it?). You could certainly imagine well-meaning jeepform designers coming up with something like that, although if I can quibble about the goal, I don't think it's so much to raise awareness as it is to make the players understand the issue on a deeper level, which is slightly different.

In many ways this sort of thing is like the kind of shock art which is/was practiced by the avant garde; it's not really very new or original, and nor is the observation that what it amounts to is pretty banal. (Rape is bad, just like the "point" of most shock art is sexism is bad, or racism is bad, or war is bad, or whatever.)

What I'm most surprised about is this idea of yours that people would sit around describing sex acts with children in the imaginary Bloemfontein Banging. What would probably happen in reality is that everybody would sit around feeling very uncomfortable and then decide that they couldn't participate, thus gaining the supposed deeper level of understanding of how terrible child abuse is. Which is presumably the designer's intent, and I don't doubt exactly what would happen in an instance of Gang Rape, if there has ever been one.

The idea that real life pedophiles (or real life gang rapists re: Gang Rape) would use such a thing to get their kicks is just too ridiculous for words; don't you think they're capable of coming up with an infinite number of more disgusting (and to them gratifying) activities? And do you think such people hang out together in cellars cackling like flying monkeys and twirling their moustaches while they play Gang Rape and plot their next dastardly scheme?

Quote from: noisms;354730And do you think such people hang out together in cellars cackling like flying monkeys and twirling their moustaches while they play Gang Rape and plot their next dastardly scheme?

They did with Poison'd, so why not.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;354731They did with Poison'd, so why not.

I think there's a difference between some idiotic geeks letting off steam, which was what that Poison'd thing seemed to be all about (the equivalent of playing Grand Theft Auto 3, really; utterly unedifying and pointless but I suppose playing to the basest of human instincts), and an actual clique of child abusers and rapists drawing inspiration from an RPG.

For what it's worth I have (infinitesimally) more respect for the creator of Gang Rape than for the creator of Poison'd. At least the former seems to have his heart in the right place. The latter is just a purveyor of cheap and trivial dross, mostly.

Quote from: StormBringer;354266To an extent.  The argument was presented, however, that Christianity as a whole believes in demonic possession as a core tenet, when it clearly isn't.  

Nope. I said it was a doctrine, not that it was a doctrine shared by all Christians of all sects. It is Catholic doctrine, it is doctrinal in all sects that teach Biblical literalism, therefore it is a doctrine of Christians. Millions of them.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;354261Case 1:- a game is designed for X, and sometimes sick shit happens in it
Case 2:- a game is designed to have sick shit happen in it.

The two cases are not identical.

And that's why you should read a thread before posting to it.

Who cares if they are identical? What difference does that make if someone becomes offended?

Quote from: Drohem;354313You are an idiot.

But at least I'm rarely at a loss for words.

Quote from: noisms;354720I'm not sure how many times I have to say that I personally think the entire idea is ridiculous. I have many times in this thread. You're preaching to the converted.

To be fair I think the goal is slightly more subtle than "make people realise rape is bad". It seems to extend to "make people realise rape is so bad that it motivates them to agitate for reform of the criminal justice system in Sweden so that more convictions for rape are secured". Which is also ridiculous, but perhaps ever so slightly less so.

Maybe it's for cheap thrills. Who knows? It doesn't matter. It's an activity of consenting adults that is intended to be private. Someone can disapprove of that activity, but claiming it's somehow immorral is a logical error. Werewolf is full of violence, rape, and demonic possession, but as long as you don't play it in times and places where you are likely to traumatize Christian fundamentalist rape victims who have been victims of violence, it's not immoral. Pretend evil is just... pretend. Pretend gang rape is not evil any more than a pretend gun is dangerous or a pretend car is fast.

I wouldn't stock Gang Rape: The RPG at Barnes & Noble, but then, I wouldn't stock gunpowder bombs at Toys R Us, either.

Quote from: noisms;354730Actually your Bloemfontein Banging is quite a good analogy (although I think Bloemfontein is quite a nice city, isn't it?). You could certainly imagine well-meaning jeepform designers coming up with something like that, although if I can quibble about the goal, I don't think it's so much to raise awareness as it is to make the players understand the issue on a deeper level, which is slightly different.

In many ways this sort of thing is like the kind of shock art which is/was practiced by the avant garde; it's not really very new or original, and nor is the observation that what it amounts to is pretty banal. (Rape is bad, just like the "point" of most shock art is sexism is bad, or racism is bad, or war is bad, or whatever.)

These two thoughts pretty much sum up my irritation with such movements:  who thinks this is controversial?  Does there really need to be a national debate about "rape is bad"?  Granted, there are some topics within that structure that can be explored, such as 'rape society' or 'exploitation of the weak'.  Neither of those is addressed, however; the jeepform is just a creepy pseudo-enactment where the 'victim' is presumed to have some level of control over the 'perpetrators'.  At its core, a very wrongheaded assumption, obviously.

QuoteWhat I'm most surprised about is this idea of yours that people would sit around describing sex acts with children in the imaginary Bloemfontein Banging. What would probably happen in reality is that everybody would sit around feeling very uncomfortable and then decide that they couldn't participate, thus gaining the supposed deeper level of understanding of how terrible child abuse is. Which is presumably the designer's intent, and I don't doubt exactly what would happen in an instance of Gang Rape, if there has ever been one.

I don't disagree.  But again, is that really necessary?  I would estimate that the vast majority of people are pretty well decided on their attitudes regarding these things.

QuoteThe idea that real life pedophiles (or real life gang rapists re: Gang Rape) would use such a thing to get their kicks is just too ridiculous for words; don't you think they're capable of coming up with an infinite number of more disgusting (and to them gratifying) activities? And do you think such people hang out together in cellars cackling like flying monkeys and twirling their moustaches while they play Gang Rape and plot their next dastardly scheme?

I don't think I made such an argument.  There is a possible element of psychologically desensitizing certain individuals that may be on the darker edge of a morally grey area.  I would say that number is tiny to vanishingly small, however, and would be as likely set off by The Accused or Bang Bus as this jeepform.  Striving to limit access to a single jeepform that no more than a few handfuls of people know of is a proposition not worthy of consideration.

On the other hand, I do share a concern with Pundit and several others that this jeepform will have consequences for the image of my own hobby.  While this isn't the 'burn everything' craziness of the 80s, most people are still not aware of tabletop RPGs, despite years of Ultima Online and WoW.  I would prefer their view not be tainted by 'that rape game'; novices to RPGs, as with any other field, are definitionally unaware of nuances and subtleties that we grognards take for granted.  Kyle is quite aware that a jeepform is not an RPG by several measures.  New participants, or those interested in participating, will not have the tools to understand the difference.  For them, it's all amateur thespian hour.

Quote from: pawsplay;354779Nope. I said it was a doctrine, not that it was a doctrine shared by all Christians of all sects. It is Catholic doctrine, it is doctrinal in all sects that teach Biblical literalism, therefore it is a doctrine of Christians. Millions of them.

Again, you assert without citation.  That is called a lie.  When you manage to locate a source, I will gladly recant my accusation, but until then, you have no argument.

Quote from: pawsplay;354783Werewolf is full of violence, rape, and demonic possession...

Full of?  Escalating a previous falsehood doesn't bolster your case.

Quote from: StormBringer;354796These two thoughts pretty much sum up my irritation with such movements:  who thinks this is controversial?  Does there really need to be a national debate about "rape is bad"?  

I don't disagree.  But again, is that really necessary?  I would estimate that the vast majority of people are pretty well decided on their attitudes regarding these things.

We're in complete agreement. I just think that the initial impulse on the part of the designer was probably a good one inasmuch as he is trying to make the world a better place - however idiotic his way of going about it is, and however unneccessary and meaningless the results are.

QuoteI don't think I made such an argument.  There is a possible element of psychologically desensitizing certain individuals that may be on the darker edge of a morally grey area.  I would say that number is tiny to vanishingly small, however, and would be as likely set off by The Accused or Bang Bus as this jeepform.  Striving to limit access to a single jeepform that no more than a few handfuls of people know of is a proposition not worthy of consideration.

For what it's worth I think that things like Bang Bus, Grand Theft Auto 3, etc., do have a detrimental effect on our society which it is worth analysing. Where Gang Rape differs is that it is explicitly an exploration of why something is bad, whereas Bang Bus is just plain and simple revelment in nastiness. (A bit like Poison'd.)

QuoteOn the other hand, I do share a concern with Pundit and several others that this jeepform will have consequences for the image of my own hobby.  While this isn't the 'burn everything' craziness of the 80s, most people are still not aware of tabletop RPGs, despite years of Ultima Online and WoW.  I would prefer their view not be tainted by 'that rape game'; novices to RPGs, as with any other field, are definitionally unaware of nuances and subtleties that we grognards take for granted.  Kyle is quite aware that a jeepform is not an RPG by several measures.  New participants, or those interested in participating, will not have the tools to understand the difference.  For them, it's all amateur thespian hour.

That's valid, but I think the number of novices to the hobby who first encounter Gang Rape, as opposed to D&D, GURPS, Shadowrun or Exalted, is vanishingly small. The main image problem for the hobby is the idea that it's the realm of nerdish singletons living in their mothers' basements, not that it's a hobby in which people enact simulated gang rape.