Quote from: pawsplay;352586So it's in there. Glad we're clear on that.

Except, it isn't in there.  You will note it clearly says 'perversions'.  If you can find somewhere in the Werewolf book where it specifically says 'rape'...  Oh, but that's right, you don't have the book, you just invent what you need.

QuoteCall me a liar again, StormBringer, you silly old thing. Shoulda admitted you were paste when I offered you the chance. But no, you couldn't bring yourself to actually consult the rules, so now you're in the shit. I win, you lose. I get tired of this crap sometimes, but when people want to do anything other than talk like reasonable people... well, sometimes you just have to rub people's faces in the truth.

Certainly.  You are an unremitting liar.  You have no idea what is in the rules, and you will absolutely not find a paragraph in that book that says 'your character will rape when under the Taint of the Wyrm'.  On top of that, how would you know if I consulted the rules?  You still don't have a copy.  You are talking out of your ass.  Your sole piece of supporting evidence is a snippet from an unofficial Wikia fanpage.

And since you didn't listen when other people mentioned it, I will re-iterate:  none of that fucking matters anyway.  There is an exceptionally rare chance, that if you botch a shitload of rolls and decide that 'perversion' is 'sexual perversion', you might just do some very bad things to people.  A situation that does not occur 99.99% of the time.  A situation that is just as easily resolved with:

"Oh, crap, that was my last botch.  I guess my guy goes off to do terrible things and then impales himself on a glaive.  I will make a new character and wait until the story has an opening."

Whereas, you are defending a jeepform whose sole purpose is to simulate gang rape.  That is 100% of the purpose of the session.  Gang rape.  It's not a bold stance on freedom of expression.  It's about gang rape.

You utterly fail to see the context, and in so doing, you are defending a game about gang rape.  This is where your fervent Devil's advocacy has led you.  To defend a game about gang rape.  I hope that is a legacy you cherish, because memories are not short around here.

QuoteEnjoy your cannibal rapist PC game, fuckers.

Enjoy your gang rape game, douchebag.

Stormbringer, there's no point in discussing anything with someone who only brings lies to the table.

Edit: In other words, what J Arcane said.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;352610Amazing how different conversations go when you've got something resembling your real name as your screen nick, and your own picture as your avatar.

But kyle, I really am the brother from another planet

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;352628But kyle, I really am the brother from another planet

Only when you've been smoking something...

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;352631Only when you've been smoking something...

Which is often.

That's why I sometimes wake up and go "fuck, did we really play My Life with Master"....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;352627Stormbringer, there's no point in discussing anything with someone who only brings lies to the table.

Edit: In other words, what J Arcane said.

Regards,
David R

True enough.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;352610Pffft, pawsplay is just another BNG. Another bitter non-gamer hiding behind internet anonymity. Amazing how different conversations go when you've got something resembling your real name as your screen nick, and your own picture as your avatar.

Actually, I'm quite googleable. I put up a press release on this site just this last month for my latest project. As for being a non-gamer, I'm looking to wraup up my 1st level to 18th level D&D 3e campaign soon.

Oh, and hey... I was vindicated. It's you that's feeling bitter.

Quote from: StormBringer;352613Except, it isn't in there.  You will note it clearly says 'perversions'.  If you can find somewhere in the Werewolf book where it specifically says 'rape'...  Oh, but that's right, you don't have the book, you just invent what you need.

You don't have the book, either.

QuoteYou utterly fail to see the context, and in so doing, you are defending a game about gang rape. This is where your fervent Devil's advocacy has led you. To defend a game about gang rape. I hope that is a legacy you cherish, because memories are not short around here.

Raping humans and animals for Gaia. Backatcha!

Quote from: pawsplay;352698You don't have the book, either.

Except that I do have the book, which is why I was able to report on the actual wording, and you aren't.

QuoteRaping humans and animals for Gaia. Backatcha!

Which would be a valid point, if there was anything about rape in the section of Werewolf you brought up.  But there isn't.  On the other hand, you are defending a jeepform called 'Gang Rape'.

You can try to paint your picture of Werewolf as much as you want, but it is quite clear at the moment that you are repeating lies with a frequency that you hope will make them stick.  Unfortunately, this is a forum populated by people who play games, and a wide range of them at that.  It was quite clear to everyone that you are absolutely unfamiliar with Werewolf specifically, and likely a vast majority of other RPGs, as soon as your first post hit the database.

So, do go on with your attempts at portraying Werewolf or any other games as having a central focus on rape, murder, or any other activity you choose, all the while defending a jeepform called 'Gang Rape'.  It is only your own reputation that will suffer.  The irony of you trying to play up elements that don't exist in other games to support the 'Gang Rape' jeepform is delicious to me.

And, since it applies remarkably well to your 'argument', a freebie for you:

per⋅vert
–verb (used with object)

  1. to affect with perversion.
    2. to lead astray morally.    
3. to turn away from the right course.
    4. to lead into mental error or false judgment.
    5. to turn to an improper use; misapply.    
6. to misconstrue or misinterpret, esp. deliberately; distort: to pervert someone's statement.      
7. to bring to a less excellent state; vitiate; debase.
    8. Pathology. to change to what is unnatural or abnormal.    
9. to convert or persuade to a religious belief regarded as false or wrong.

Hence, perversion isn't rape.  Much like your bad faith argument is a perversion of good discourse, your use of 'perversion' to mean 'rape' is a deliberate misinterpretation.

Quote from: StormBringer;352765Except that I do have the book, which is why I was able to report on the actual wording, and you aren't.

But you're unwilling to quite it verbatim.

QuoteIt was quite clear to everyone that you are absolutely unfamiliar with Werewolf specifically, and likely a vast majority of other RPGs, as soon as your first post hit the database.

Other than, you know, playing in a year long campaign of it. By the way, the wyrm frenzy isn't the only rape. As several people have already noted, rape of humans and wolves is also mentioned in the backstory.

I'm disappointed that people would lack the conviction to say, "Yes, Werewolf is a game full of rape and other topics that many, if not most, mainstream individuals would find unsavory." I'm still scratching my head at people claiming demonic possession isn't a Christian belief. Obviously not all Christians, but certainly orthodox Catholics, as well as the likes of Jack Chick.

Quote from: pawsplay;352784But you're unwilling to quite it verbatim.

Again, you don't seem to understand the protocol.  I don't have to quote anything.  This isn't tBP.  You must support your argument, or you are lying.  That is how it works in the adult world.

EDIT:
An example, so you can't whine later about not understanding.  The section under discussion could very well be titled "How to play 'Rapewolf: the Rapening' in three easy steps".  It isn't my responsibility to prove that it doesn't say that.  It is your responsibility to show that it does.  When you make an assertion without supporting evidence of any kind, it is a lie.  Worse, it is an intentional lie, because you have already admitted you don't have the passage to hand, nor have you even seen the book itself for a year or more.  You can scream all day about all the elements of rape in Werewolf, but that doesn't change the fact that you have no idea what is in the book.  Every time you mention it, you are cementing your position of bad faith and lies even more.

QuoteOther than, you know, playing in a year long campaign of it. By the way, the wyrm frenzy isn't the only rape. As several people have already noted, rape of humans and wolves is also mentioned in the backstory.

Did you play that year long campaign as playtesting prior to writing the rulebooks?

QuoteI'm disappointed that people would lack the conviction to say, "Yes, Werewolf is a game full of rape and other topics that many, if not most, mainstream individuals would find unsavory."

It is not lack of conviction to refute outright lies when they are presented as truth.  In fact, supporting truth is the very core of conviction.  Shall I show you another definition?  You seem to be having problems with them.

QuoteI'm still scratching my head at people claiming demonic possession isn't a Christian belief. Obviously not all Christians, but certainly orthodox Catholics, as well as the likes of Jack Chick.

You should be scratching your head over that.  No one has said it is not a Christian belief.  You made that up as part of your strawman army.  And I am relatively certain that no one around here puts any stock whatsoever in what Jack Chick believes.

You have squandered any legitimacy capital you may have started with on defending an activity that seeks to simulate gang rape.  When your future 'contributions' to a thread are summarily dismissed out of hand, look back to this thread.  Then, you need not ask why your opinions are not taken seriously.

Quote from: StormBringer;352815Again, you don't seem to understand the protocol.  I don't have to quote anything.  This isn't tBP.  You must support your argument, or you are lying.  That is how it works in the adult world.

No, that's pretty much how it works in the teenaged world. In the adult world, people dont withhold information because it might harm their argument, insist people quote from rulebooks that aren't physically present, or call someone a liar would might be telling the truth. If you want to call someone a liar, where's the evidence?

This could have been a much more civil discussion, but guess what? The people who own the rulebooks didn't feel like weighing in. Instead, people started talking about stuff they actually didn't know about. Owning a rulebook is not a substitute for reading it.

In the end, you get people saying I misrepresented or emphasized wrongly some elements of Werewolf. That's a matter of opinion, and a far cry from "lying." Meanwhile, some people reading the thread may have dropped off. You may have done them a disservice if they left believe those elements were not present in Werewolf, which is what you have said.

When you tell me I won't be taken seriously, that doesn't sound like friendly advice to me. It sounds like a hollow prediction. Maybe it makes you feel better to say that, but the fact is, only time will tell. From my standpoint, you embarrassed yourself, and everyone who argued I was lying and had access to the rulebooks embarrassed themselves. It would have taken seconds to look it up. Instead, you were busy making smug pronouncements, throwing around rhetorical terms as if they were snowballs, and making ad hominem attacks.

What could easily have been an adult discussion, you made into a contest of invective, and then you tripped over yourself because you argued emotionally instead of logically. Also, this is not a court of law. Every participant in this discussion has an equal responsibility to reason. You did not hold up your end of things.

I did not come here to defend Gang Rape or the people who play it, but to critcize the idea it should not exist simply because gang rape is vile. RPGs are full of vile things, even very popular ones, such as Werewolf. That itself does not constitute a proper argument. I have no problem with the position that Gang Rape is not a good or wortwhile activity for most people, I agree. I have a problem with saying its existence is somehow beyond the pale. From what footing can that be argued? Gang Rape sucks because it is in bad taste, not because it's immoral, and the hand-wringing and outrage is embarrasssing to me, as a gamer, because it's so hypocritical.

I am startled to learn that so many people could take away the conclusion Werewolf was about "good guy werewolves." It's about monsters. They're heroic, sure, but not what I would consider particularly ethical. In the end, they're a bunch of murderous religious fanatics deciding who are chosen to live and who are not. They murder, rape, vandalize, cannibalize, and terrorize. It's not exactly the Power Rangers. To conclude otherwise, you would either have to ignore the unsavory points, or have a decidedly non-modern view of right and wrong. If you think all that stuff is ok, then I guess I have no further argument, but I have no reason to suspect most gamers seriously feel it would be a good idea to "cull" humanity to restore nature.

Quote from: StormBringer;352815You should be scratching your head over that.  No one has said it is not a Christian belief.  

Quote from: Kyle AaronDemonic possession is not part of modern Catholic or Baptist doctrine.

So... what are you saying, exactly?

Quote from: pawsplay;352854No, that's pretty much how it works in the teenaged world.

And there is your problem.  You are in way over your head, and don't realize it.

QuoteOwning a rulebook is not a substitute for reading it.

You have done neither, hence, your standing in this discussion is approximately zero.

QuoteI did not come here to defend Gang Rape or the people who play it, but to critcize the idea it should not exist simply because gang rape is vile. RPGs are full of vile things, even very popular ones, such as Werewolf.

You failed on both counts.  No one is saying it shouldn't exist, although some may wish it didn't.  What you see are people condemning this specific expression in a jeepform, as well as the stated purpose of the jeepform to raise awareness.  As well, people here are making the strongest statement possible that this particular jeepform, and other activities or games like it, are absolutely not representative of RPGs as a whole.

On the second count, you utterly failed to demonstrate that RPGs of any kind are full of vile situations.  At best, by whining incessantly for others to do your research for you, it could be demonstrated that in exceptionally rare instances, there are some moderate to highly questionable actions in a quite specific mechanic in Werewolf.  However, you didn't demonstrate that.  You also failed utterly to demonstrate the particular rule in question is absolutely iron-clad and must be played out during the session.

Finally, then, you have completely failed to demonstrate any of your assertions.  You simply kept repeating the same untruths often and loudly enough in the hopes they would gain some traction, much like the individual you mentioned earlier, Jack Chick.  You now have first hand experience as to why no one takes him seriously either.

Quote from: pawsplay;352856So... what are you saying, exactly?

That you have immense reading comprehension and basic vocabulary problems.

doc⋅trine
–noun
  1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.
     2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.      
3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

be⋅lief
–noun  
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.      
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.      
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.      
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Kyle says it is not in current Christian doctrine, which is not the same as current Christian belief.  I presume there are individuals of various stripes who believe in any number of things; those are not, by default, part of their religious doctrine.

The difference is quite stark, when you understand that words have meaning.  A meaning that is often independent of your particular desire to mislead and obfuscate.