Quote from: StormBringer;352103Except that the vast majority of the population is not worried about demon possession, whereas gang rape is a very real possibility in any number of places.  Trivializing one is not the same as trivializing the other.

Secondly, even the people who believe in demon possession would be horrified by gang rape, and would reasonably be offended by this jeepform.

I am assuming you have some means of demonstrating this equivalence between demonic possession and gang rape that exists outside of your mind?  Because you keep bringing it up as an a priori statement.  This notion you keep returning to, that an irrational belief of an exceptionally small fringe population has the exact same weight as a real criminal act that horrifies, upsets, and offends the vast, vast majority of the general population has to have some underlying basis, right?  I mean, you didn't just wander in here to play Devil's Advocate without any kind of plan, did you?  

For example, your lack of understanding and knowledge about Werewolf is all encompassing.  What you assert as a plain truth about the rules is clearly just your recollection of the anti-social behaviour displayed by your particular group.  You make wild assumptions about 'conservative' Christians that simply are not true.  And you continue to present these ideas as though they are irrefutable, even though several people have pointed out how utterly mistaken those assumptions are.

In other words, you are in way over your head here.

You're supposed to say "excuse me" after you fart.

Quote from: David R;352098Actually, you're wrong. Many people here have not played Werewolf but have heard of it or know what it's about or maybe even read it, but don't like it for a variety of reasons, none of which has anything to do with "playing a  demon possesed cannibal rapist murderer" - if the game has changed so much I'd like to see some evidence of this.

How does that make me wrong? I never said everyone here played it, just that many people have. If there are 8000 posters and 80 have played it, that's "many." Certainly more than have ever played Gang Rape.

QuoteLike I said in my early post. You just keep dismissing context and intent, making it seem unimportant. At the end of the day, rape is the same in every game. If you put up with it in one game (something which you have not supported with evidence btw*) you must put up with it in every game. No, criticism allowed.

So the rape in Werewolf... is okay? It's different in some way that makes it not bad? Maybe it's cute rape?

Quote from: pawsplay;352106I never said they shouldn't be offended. That's their choice. I just don't view "gang rape" as something ex cathedra to the world of gaming. For instance (I say in summary), rape, possession, cannibalism, murder, and necrophilia are canonical aspects of playing a garou in Werewolf. If the objection to Gang Rape is that it is "not fun," I'm not sure it's much of a defense for Werewolf to say it's okay because it IS fun. Viewing objectionable material as fun does not cleanse it.

You really shouldn't try to use big Latin words when you don't understand what they mean.

I'm pretty sure the Pope has nothing to do with, nor any concern towards the contents of any given roleplaying game.

Quote from: pawsplay;352106If the objection to Gang Rape is that it is "not fun," I'm not sure it's much of a defense for Werewolf to say it's okay because it IS fun. Viewing objectionable material as fun does not cleanse it.

Nobody here said they objected to GangRape becaue it was "not fun".

Regards,
David R

Quote from: pawsplay;352108So the rape in Werewolf... is okay? It's different in some way that makes it not bad? Maybe it's cute rape?

Again, never raped anyone in a Werewolf game.  Not once.  Killed a lot of things, most all of them not human, never raped anyone.  Never found myself in a situation where I was somehow forced by the game to rape someone.  Wasn't necessary in any way, if there was indeed mention of it in the books, it sure as shit never came up in my games.

Just.  Didn't.  Happen.  No matter how much you want to believe it's impossible.

Which is why it's fucking ludicrous to compare it to this game, even if these elements were technically present in some after thought of a pretentious yob on page 235.  It wasn't what the game was about.

Where as it is absolutely and unequivocably what this entire game is about, what it's mechanics are about, what they seek to simulate.  That's what it is.  An RPG, about gang rape.  Period.

Just give it a fucking rest already, this shit isn't going to work.

Quote from: pawsplay;352106For instance (I say in summary), rape, possession, cannibalism, murder, and necrophilia are canonical aspects of playing a garou in Werewolf.

Except they aren't.  You have been advised of this.  Now you are simply lying.

Quote from: pawsplay;352107You're supposed to say "excuse me" after you fart.

I will take that as your concession that you were wrong in your premise to begin with, wrong to continue with your specious and unsupportable arguments, and finally that you are unable to gracefully admit you were either trolling or playing Devil's Advocate very poorly.

Quote from: pawsplay;352108How does that make me wrong? I never said everyone here played it, just that many people have. If there are 8000 posters and 80 have played it, that's "many." Certainly more than have ever played Gang Rape.

If there are 80 people out of 8000 that have participated in an activity, that is also known as "1%".  There is no reasonable definition of 'many' that includes one in one hundred.

QuoteSo the rape in Werewolf... is okay? It's different in some way that makes it not bad? Maybe it's cute rape?

No, the 'rape' in Werewolf only exists in a specific group.  Clearly, in this case, the one you were involved in.

You really blew it with the Wikia article, however.  Check out the home page, which really should have been your first step before posting the link:

Quote from: Wikia introThe (Unofficial) White Wolf Wiki is a collaborative encyclopedia project where you can find out about the worlds and systems created by White Wolf Publishing, Inc, publisher of many roleplaying games, board games, card games, novels and more. The White Wolf Wiki started in May 2004, and currently has 4,740 articles.

Emphasis mine.

In other words, anything posted there is the interpretation of people who are not employed by White Wolf.  That is what 'unofficial' means.  There could be an article about Werewolf playing exactly like an episode of My Little Pony.  And that carries about as much weight as your assertions regarding Werewolf at this point.

You should probably try your strategy over at tBP.  The mods are more than willing to sweep in at a moment's notice when you are thoroughly embarrassed in public like this.

Quote from: pawsplay;352108How does that make me wrong? I never said everyone here played it, just that many people have. If there are 8000 posters and 80 have played it, that's "many." Certainly more than have ever played Gang Rape.

You're wrong because of your characterization of the game. You implied that gamers didn't realize that Werewolf was about rape, muder and cannibalism.

QuoteSo the rape in Werewolf... is okay? It's different in some way that makes it not bad? Maybe it's cute rape?

Not at all. It's not central to the game. It's not the focus of the game or most of it's players and like I said earlier, it's part of the dark mythology of the setting. It's not what the designers envisioned their game is about. It's sure as hell not supposed to be fun. It's probably something that most WhiteWolf gamers choose not to explore.

Like I said, you keep dismissing the details. Context and intent.

Regards,
David R

The sad part is, this whole pathetic attempt at trolling could've turned out a lot better if he'd just picked Vampire instead.  

Werewolf was always the least morally ambiguous/questionable game in the line, frankly, which is why I liked it so much.

I got the feeling that part of this debate is based on the assumption that the purpose of "Gang Rape the RPG" is to gather together simulate gang rape - end of the story.

However, the book explicitly states that simulating gang rape is

centred around the idea of
using fiat as a means of
oppression. The game mechanics
were conceived for the purpose
of playing gang rape, but are equally
useful for playing any kind of oppression,
like for example bullying/mobbing.

and later

Additionally, and naturally, the game is
also about admitting that we all have
the capacity to fantasise about these
things. And just maybe, or so I imagine,
you might find nuances of things in here
that actually turns you on. For some,
control can be a great turn-on. Naturally,
I am only saying this to raise the
stakes of playing.

Add the exemplification of "fiat" as "the GM decides what happens in the game without consulting the players or "the objective rueles. (I'm still quoting the rulebook ad verbatim) and what you get is that "Gang Rape" is about admitting the glee of total control, not only physical but also psychological - including being a traditional GM.

[Which is the conclusion I flatly refuse without even going into the joys of debating if simulating gang rape = itching to practice it].

Again though, this debate pre-supposes that Gangrape is a game.  The definition of a game is:

1. an amusement or pastime: children's games.  
2. the material or equipment used in playing certain games: a store selling toys and games.  
3. a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.

Whatever criticisms there may be of Werewolf, it is undeniably a game.  On the other hand, I can't give Gangrape the benefit of the doubt that it is an "amusement or pastime" because the people who made it admit that it is a forum for acting out oppression and can be disturbing.  In the alternative, if the people "playing" Gangrape are doing it for their own amusement or for that of spectators then they are a sick bunch of pervs.   Pretending it is a game and trying to legitimize it by calling it an RPG is just plain offensive.

Quote from: Reckall;352122I got the feeling that part of this debate is based on the assumption that the purpose of "Gang Rape the RPG" is to gather together simulate gang rape - end of the story.

However, the book explicitly states that simulating gang rape is

centred around the idea of
using fiat as a means of
oppression. The game mechanics
were conceived for the purpose
of playing gang rape, but are equally
useful for playing any kind of oppression,
like for example bullying/mobbing.

and later

Additionally, and naturally, the game is
also about admitting that we all have
the capacity to fantasise about these
things. And just maybe, or so I imagine,
you might find nuances of things in here
that actually turns you on. For some,
control can be a great turn-on. Naturally,
I am only saying this to raise the
stakes of playing.

Add the exemplification of "fiat" as "the GM decides what happens in the game without consulting the players or "the objective rueles. (I'm still quoting the rulebook ad verbatim) and what you get is that "Gang Rape" is about admitting the glee of total control, not only physical but also psychological - including being a traditional GM.

[Which is the conclusion I flatly refuse without even going into the joys of debating if simulating gang rape = itching to practice it].

Self-defeating Post is Self-Defeating.

Quote from: pawsplay;352067The focus of Werewolf is playing a demon-possessed cannibal rapist murder. True, it lacks that total "gang rape" focus, but who likes those dodgy microgames, anyway?

Not me.

But you're being stupid again. If it were just you we could forgive it, but you're doing it on purpose as a rhetorical trick. Stop it, don't be an arsehole.

Quote from: pawsplayTo you [demon posessions are not real]. To a conservative Christian, they are very real.

Only to the true nutters. Which is not the majority. It's like saying that CIA mind control computer chips are real to some paranoid schizophrenics, so we must take the issue seriously when designing games.

No.

Quote from: pawsplaydo you want to either concede that a game isn't vile and offensive simply because it offends someone on reasonable grounds

I turn to our excellent British-derived common law, which generally asks us to consider what a reasonable person would think.

A reasonable person will not be offended by a story or game about werewolves, because a reasonable person does not think they actually exist. You'll note there were no protests outside the cinemas when Van Helsing or Underworld came out - not even "conservative Christians." Reasonable people were indifferent to these movies, because reasonable people know that werewolves and demons do not exist.

Whereas gang rape does actually exist, and does offend reasonable people. Which is the entire point of this "gang rape rpg" - it offends reasonable people and this feeling of offence should be explored in the "game".

Again, you know all this. You're being stupid again. If it were just you we could forgive it, but you're doing it on purpose as a rhetorical trick. Stop it, don't be an arsehole.

Quote from: David R;352115Not at all. It's not central to the game. It's not the focus of the game or most of it's players and like I said earlier, it's part of the dark mythology of the setting. It's not what the designers envisioned their game is about. It's sure as hell not supposed to be fun. It's probably something that most WhiteWolf gamers choose not to explore.

Then why are their rules for it? If the rules say my character may suddenly murder a teammate or commit rape, how am I supposed to interpret that?

Quote from: Grimjack;352128Again though, this debate pre-supposes that Gangrape is a game.  The definition of a game is:

1. an amusement or pastime: children's games.  
2. the material or equipment used in playing certain games: a store selling toys and games.  
3. a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.

Whatever criticisms there may be of Werewolf, it is undeniably a game.  On the other hand, I can't give Gangrape the benefit of the doubt that it is an "amusement or pastime" because the people who made it admit that it is a forum for acting out oppression and can be disturbing.  In the alternative, if the people "playing" Gangrape are doing it for their own amusement or for that of spectators then they are a sick bunch of pervs.   Pretending it is a game and trying to legitimize it by calling it an RPG is just plain offensive.

If Gang Rape is an exercise in oppression, how is that not a competitive activity?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;352258Only to the true nutters. Which is not the majority. It's like saying that CIA mind control computer chips are real to some paranoid schizophrenics, so we must take the issue seriously when designing games.

Ok, so you want to call every orthodox Catholic in the world and most Baptists nutters, and then you want to call me a troll. If C.S. Lewis is a "nutter," I'm not sure we have enough common ground to continue discussion.