Quote from: Kyle Aaron;352044Don't be stupid, pawsplay. There's a difference between

"this vile thing exists in the game setting, but we don't roleplay it," and

"this vile thing exists in the game setting, and not only do we roleplay it, but it's the whole point of the thing."

Half-orcs are supposed to be mostly the result of a male orc raping a female human. But when someone has a half-orc PC, they don't roleplay out Daddy raping Mummy. It happened somewhere off-screen in the past.

You know this, stop being a cocksmock.

The focus of Werewolf is playing a demon-possessed cannibal rapist murder. True, it lacks that total "gang rape" focus, but who likes those dodgy microgames, anyway?

Quote from: StormBringer;352066No, they really don't.  If you mean the transmission of the curse in classic literature, that would still be an incredible stretch.  To the breaking point, in fact.

Look, I don't have my rulebooks any more. I can't give you a page number. But someone who has the books can do a little digging and come up with a good quote, I'm sure.

QuoteBecause Satanic possessions aren't real?

To you. To a conservative Christian, they are very real. Worse than rape, since being raped won't actually damage your immortal soul. So, do you want to either concede that a game isn't vile and offensive simply because it offends someone on reasonable grounds, or do you want to agree that any game featuring demon possession is vile and offensive and should never exist? I'm not saying Gang Rape is a great idea for a game. On the other hand, anyone who wants to claim it's going to sully the innocent, virginal character of the RPG hobby is a hypcritical apologist. Ok, it crosses a line. So do other games, in various ways, including some very popular ones.

What about GURPS WWII? There are people alive today who were vets of that conflict, people who survived Auschwitz and the bombing of London and Berlin. Is GURPS WWII inappropriate for that reason? There are millions of people in the world who believe war is wrong and always wrong.

Quote from: David R;352033And yet many people don't find this objectionable ? Why ?

Probably because many people here have played Werewolf, and none to few have played Gang Rape, I'll say. Just like few people here would find Werewolf objectionable, but most would object to "exorcising" a teenager with schizophrenia, whereas some evangelical Christian fora would probably have the opposite bias.

Quote from: pawsplay;352067The focus of Werewolf is playing a demon-possessed cannibal rapist murder.

I think you would have a hard time proving that.

Quote from: pawsplay;352068To you. To a conservative Christian, they are very real. Worse than rape, since being raped won't actually damage your immortal soul. So, do you want to either concede that a game isn't vile and offensive simply because it offends someone on reasonable grounds, or do you want to agree that any game featuring demon possession is vile and offensive and should never exist?

This is my favorite Straw Man Arguement evar!

You should go meet some conservative Christians instead of fearing them as your personal boogieman.

Quote from: pawsplay;352068What about GURPS WWII? There are people alive today who were vets of that conflict, people who survived Auschwitz and the bombing of London and Berlin. Is GURPS WWII inappropriate for that reason? There are millions of people in the world who believe war is wrong and always wrong.

When you read GURPS WWII, you will find that SJG does not encourage Players to reenact the atrocities of WWII. SJG has a habit of not pushing game material that would be considered objectionable by any rational standard.

Quote from: pawsplay;352069Just like few people here would find Werewolf objectionable, but most would object to "exorcising" a teenager with schizophrenia, whereas some evangelical Christian fora would probably have the opposite bias.

Sorry, just because one fringe group finds objectionable activities acceptable does not mean that another objectionable activity is equally acceptable for a seperate group.

Quote from: pawsplay;352067The focus of Werewolf is playing a demon-possessed cannibal rapist murder. True, it lacks that total "gang rape" focus, but who likes those dodgy microgames, anyway?

I never raped anyone in any of my Werewolf games, nor did I ever eat anyone, and the game's morality mechanics rather made those poor choices should any of us have chosen to do so.  "Demon-possessed" is a ridiculous interpretation of the metaphysics of the original game that really only applys to the bad Werewolves the players are supposed to be fighting.

"Murder" in terms of yes, we killed people, bad people, and you're uncharitably referring to that as murder to twist it to fit your point, you're telling a half-truth at best.  "Murder" in the sense that most rational people use it, unjustified, cold-blooded, senseless killing, not so much, no.

If the current "revamped" edition has modified the game in such a way as to make your hyperbole actually true, then sure, I'll condemn that game like I've condemned this one, but the impression I get is that it's not actually true at all, you're just taking subsurface thematic elements and exaggerating and misinterpreting them to twist to fit whatever ridiculous point of devil's advocacy you're aiming for.

I suggest if you want this conversation to continue, you start citing some fucking sources, because right now you just look like another pretentious ass, picking a different game but still playing the same old lame "But D&D is about murder and genocide and robbery!" card that wasn't funny when Costikyan did it, and sure as hell isn't terribly amusing or poignant in your hands.

Quote from: pawsplay;352068Look, I don't have my rulebooks any more. I can't give you a page number.

Then you aren't speaking from any level of evidence.  You are simply making things up.  You will find that to be extremely counter-productive around these parts.

QuoteBut someone who has the books can do a little digging and come up with a good quote, I'm sure.

I do have the books.  They say nothing like that.

QuoteTo you. To a conservative Christian, they are very real. Worse than rape, since being raped won't actually damage your immortal soul. So, do you want to either concede that a game isn't vile and offensive simply because it offends someone on reasonable grounds, or do you want to agree that any game featuring demon possession is vile and offensive and should never exist?

You will need to come up with an argument that is both supported and coherent before you start making demands as to concessions.  I am quite sure there are some in the equestrian world that find Bella Sara quite offensive.  That doesn't mean their opinion should hold an equal weight.  Additionally, you have failed to show that a belief in demon possession is either reasonable or rational.  Nor have you shown that 'demon possession' carries equal weight as gang rape in anything like a similar number of either the general population, or in the sub-set of the gamer population.

However, in some parts of the Middle East and Africa (among others), being raped is a good deal worse than demon possession, because being raped will get you killed, or raped a second time by the village elders.  Demon possession will simply subject one to an exorcism.  Do you really think you are up for a game of one-upmanship of this nature?

If you have some means to show that demon possession is real, or that demon possession is the point upon which most RPGs revolve, or that any of this has any level of correspondence to an activity that is predicated on imagining the act of gang rape, please continue.  I suspect you don't, so I will politely invite you to discontinue your line of reasoning.  It is not serving you or your specious argument.

QuoteI'm not saying Gang Rape is a great idea for a game. On the other hand, anyone who wants to claim it's going to sully the innocent, virginal character of the RPG hobby is a hypcritical apologist. Ok, it crosses a line. So do other games, in various ways, including some very popular ones.

Aside from the aforementioned misery tourism of most Forge games and FATAL, I presume you will be able to name at least one where the entire focus of the game is towards an activity such as gang rape.  I further presume you have a 'very popular' game in mind where the mechanics are entirely purposed for detailing these heinous acts in terms of precise minutiae.

QuoteWhat about GURPS WWII? There are people alive today who were vets of that conflict, people who survived Auschwitz and the bombing of London and Berlin. Is GURPS WWII inappropriate for that reason? There are millions of people in the world who believe war is wrong and always wrong.

I presume you do have the GURPS WWII supplement you are referring to, unlike the Werewolf book.  Further, I will expect your reply to cite the pages where SJGames details the aspects of concentration camps, and the exact game mechanics for the rapid and large scale murder of 'undesirables' by the Nazis, and how to implement that in a given campaign.

Or, you don't, and this is another smokescreen.

It would behoove you to get the file for Gang Rape linked earlier in the thread and give it a read through.  So far, you have cited at least two sources and admitted to not currently owning one of them while making an argument predicated on its contents.  The mechanics for the jeepform are actually rather disturbing in their own right.  After which, you can carry on with an informed opinion to at least a portion of this discussion.

Quote from: J Arcane;352081I never raped anyone in any of my Werewolf games, nor did I ever eat anyone, and the game's morality mechanics rather made those poor choices should any of us have chosen to do so.

Actually, a Wyrm frenzy may compel your garou to do those things, whatever your intentions. Whether you were a homid, lupus, or metis determined what your default unsavory behavior would be, with eating people and performing depraved sex acts being two of the possibilities.

Quote"Demon-possessed" is a ridiculous interpretation of the metaphysics of the original game that really only applys to the bad Werewolves the players are supposed to be fighting.

Demon-possessed is literally true. Demon, or daemon, refers to a spirit, and is present in the phrase eudaimonia as well as pandemonium. In this particular case, the spirits in question are pagan nature spirits who encourage their adulation, making them false gods/devils from a Christian standpoint. Jack Chick wrote one of his tracts in which he explicitly identifies a Wiccan's familiar as a demon spirit.

I cannot fathom how you came to the conclusion the PCs are "good" and the Black Spiral Dancers are therefore the "bad" werewolves. In this case, good is definitely a relative term.

Quote"Murder" in terms of yes, we killed people, bad people, and you're uncharitably referring to that as murder to twist it to fit your point, you're telling a half-truth at best.  "Murder" in the sense that most rational people use it, unjustified, cold-blooded, senseless killing, not so much, no.

How about hot-blooded slaughter? How about cold-blooded killing in the name of ecological warfare?

QuoteIf the current "revamped" edition has modified the game in such a way as to make your hyperbole actually true, then sure, I'll condemn that game like I've condemned this one, but the impression I get is that it's not actually true at all, you're just taking subsurface thematic elements and exaggerating and misinterpreting them to twist to fit whatever ridiculous point of devil's advocacy you're aiming for.

I suggest if you want this conversation to continue, you start citing some fucking sources, because right now you just look like another pretentious ass, picking a different game but still playing the same old lame "But D&D is about murder and genocide and robbery!" card that wasn't funny when Costikyan did it, and sure as hell isn't terribly amusing or poignant in your hands.

I played in a lengthy campaign under the old rules. I actually don't know anything about the current version. I'm not hyperbolizing. It's all in there. Pretending anything otherwise is a whitewash. I'm not playing around with context. If you look in the books, you will find that werewolves engage in rape, and you will find rules that tell you that when you botch a frenzy under certain circumstances, your character will do about the most vile things imaginable under the circumstances.

No, I don't have the books, haven't in years. So what? If you have the books, you can read them for yourself. If you don't own them, your objection is pretty hollow.

Quote from: StormBringer;352088However, in some parts of the Middle East and Africa (among others), being raped is a good deal worse than demon possession, because being raped will get you killed, or raped a second time by the village elders.  Demon possession will simply subject one to an exorcism.  

Exactly. Every culture, every individual, has a different view of ultimate evil. For a modern humanist, the loss of individual dignity is probably one of the greatest evils, but for a Christian, the loss of the immortal soul is a greater peril than any mortal suffering.

Quote from: jeff37923;352078I think you would have a hard time proving that.

You're playing a werewolf. Werewolves kill, rape, and cannibalize. Ergo...

QuoteThis is my favorite Straw Man Arguement evar!

You should go meet some conservative Christians instead of fearing them as your personal boogieman.

Don't be preposterous. Many of my relatives are Baptists. I don't have a problem with their beliefs, in fact, I am willing to try to see things from a viewpoint other than my own. Demon possession is a literal belief of Christianity, held by everyone from Jerry Falwell to C.S. Lewis. Perhaps you have more familiarity with liberal Christian sects and are unfamiliar with some of these concepts. In the Bible, Jesus performs an exorcism on an insane person.

I wouldn't go yelling strawman and then ascribing a pile of attitudes to me which I do not have. I'm not mocking conservative Christians; I am informing you, the uninformed, about some aspects of mainstream religion with which you are unfamiliar.

QuoteSorry, just because one fringe group finds objectionable activities acceptable does not mean that another objectionable activity is equally acceptable for a seperate group.

You are talking about acceptability in a universal sense, which I was not. My point was that different groups have different opinions about what "is" acceptable.

It's a Wiki, but here's a source for you:

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Frenzy_(WTA)

QuoteLupus Garou in Thrall will attack their own fallen packmates and deliberately try to kill them. This is atrributed to the influence of Beast-of-War.

Homid Garou in Thrall will attempt to devour the flesh of fallen comrades and foes, engaging in cannibalism. This is atrributed to the influence of Eater-of-Souls.

Metis Garou in Thrall will rape fallen packmembers and foes and engage in necrophilia. This is atrributed to the influence of the Defiler.

There ya go. Rape, necrophilia, murder, cannibalism.

Quote from: pawsplay;352069Probably because many people here have played Werewolf, and none to few have played Gang Rape, I'll say. Just like few people here would find Werewolf objectionable, but most would object to "exorcising" a teenager with schizophrenia, whereas some evangelical Christian fora would probably have the opposite bias.

Actually, you're wrong. Many people here have not played Werewolf but have heard of it or know what it's about or maybe even read it, but don't like it for a variety of reasons, none of which has anything to do with "playing a  demon possesed cannibal rapist murderer" - if the game has changed so much I'd like to see some evidence of this.

Like I said in my early post. You just keep dismissing context and intent, making it seem unimportant. At the end of the day, rape is the same in every game. If you put up with it in one game (something which you have not supported with evidence btw*) you must put up with it in every game. No, criticism allowed.

Edit: Your "evidence" that Werewolf is about rape, cannibalism and murder is the wikiquote ? This is why gamers should not be offended by GangRape ?

Regards,
David R

Double post

Quote from: pawsplay;352095Exactly. Every culture, every individual, has a different view of ultimate evil. For a modern humanist, the loss of individual dignity is probably one of the greatest evils, but for a Christian, the loss of the immortal soul is a greater peril than any mortal suffering.

Except that the vast majority of the population is not worried about demon possession, whereas gang rape is a very real possibility in any number of places.  Trivializing one is not the same as trivializing the other.

Secondly, even the people who believe in demon possession would be horrified by gang rape, and would reasonably be offended by this jeepform.

I am assuming you have some means of demonstrating this equivalence between demonic possession and gang rape that exists outside of your mind?  Because you keep bringing it up as an a priori statement.  This notion you keep returning to, that an irrational belief of an exceptionally small fringe population has the exact same weight as a real criminal act that horrifies, upsets, and offends the vast, vast majority of the general population has to have some underlying basis, right?  I mean, you didn't just wander in here to play Devil's Advocate without any kind of plan, did you?  

For example, your lack of understanding and knowledge about Werewolf is all encompassing.  What you assert as a plain truth about the rules is clearly just your recollection of the anti-social behaviour displayed by your particular group.  You make wild assumptions about 'conservative' Christians that simply are not true.  And you continue to present these ideas as though they are irrefutable, even though several people have pointed out how utterly mistaken those assumptions are.

In other words, you are in way over your head here.

Quote from: David R;352098Edit: Your "evidence" that Werewolf is about rape, cannibalism and murder is the wikiquote ? This is why gamers should not be offended by GangRape ?

I should have held off my response above until I got to that part.  Then I could have just laughed and pointed without wasting all those electrons.

Quote from: David R;352098Edit: Your "evidence" that Werewolf is about rape, cannibalism and murder is the wikiquote ? This is why gamers should not be offended by GangRape ?

Regards,
David R

I never said they shouldn't be offended. That's their choice. I just don't view "gang rape" as something ex cathedra to the world of gaming. For instance (I say in summary), rape, possession, cannibalism, murder, and necrophilia are canonical aspects of playing a garou in Werewolf. If the objection to Gang Rape is that it is "not fun," I'm not sure it's much of a defense for Werewolf to say it's okay because it IS fun. Viewing objectionable material as fun does not cleanse it.