Quote from: Paul B;349804Kneejerk moralists crack me up. It's BADD all over again!

OMG think of the children.

Quote from: Paul B;349810Who's apologizing?

Kneejerk moralism is still funny and quaint and old-fashioned, though. Way to raise the bar!

Quote from: Paul B;349820Uh...that's a pretty slippery slope. Do tacky fanservice RPG book covers get a pass? Howzabout thinly veiled racism? Genocide?

Quote from: Paul B;349848I'll be sure to wag my disapproving finger at those damned boffer LARPers and SCAers next time they try and spread their filth.

Thanks for the tip!

Quote from: Paul B;349985Hey, so let's get real for a sec.

Anyone here go through the BADD old days? Show of hands please. Thank you.

Ever have a red-faced housewife show up on your parents' doorstep and demand they talk about your immoral, Satanic habits? Ever have your shit taken away from you because, well, all the other parents thought it was a good idea? And did having your shit taken from you save your soul? Your morality?

Here's the thing. Self-righteous moralists are never in it for the saving. Never. Ever. They don't give a flying fuck about protecting anyone from anything. They're self-righteous moralists because it's a way to earn points, to draw lines, to win some specious fight you didn't even know you were in.

So when I see some kneejerk moralist going off on something so utterly irrelevant, that's what's happening: They're at it again. Them. Oh please just fucking shoot me already, it's 1985 all over again.

For the record, since reading comprehension seems to be at an all-time low (either in this thread or on this board in general), I've never actually stated my opinion on this piece. Go ahead, check the record. I'll wait. Are you done?

If you were curious -- and if you were, you'd have asked me -- I personally think the gang rape thing is fucked up. But whatever. Who cares? Parents shouldn't -- they're the ones responsible for instilling values into their kids, not some misguided, pretentious "game" creator. Gamers worried about how a "gang rape gang" will make roleplaying look? OH PLEASE: first off, generating a dozen pages of talk about it means you've just given this piece of shit more traction than the last few FtA! threads gave that game; second off, gamers have way more pressing issues with image than an obscure experimental RPing exercise actually played by...tens of people.

Please, for fuck's sake, just read. Ask me questions! But don't you go putting bullshit into my mouth that I never said.

And the kneejerk moralists can blow me. You're serving nobody but yourselves.

Quote from: Paul B;350008Ah. I'm seeing the basic problem here.

There's a fundamental difference between:

"This game is pretentious, offensive shit." That's criticism.

and

"This game is pretentious, offensive shit that they made," using said pretentious, offensive shit as a means of earning points against them. That's moralising against them.

I'm deeply critical of this game. The OP is not. He's critical of them.

Hey so J Arcane, whoever you are, who are "they" anyway? The Swedes?

You're right, it didn't take long.

You start by dismissing people who find gross moral and ethical failures in a game wholly centered on gang rape as 'kneejerk moralists', then try to make an equivalence to people who were mistaken about Satanism in D&D with a game wholly centered on gang rape, spending the entire time downplaying the completely natural reaction of well-socialized gamers to the idea of a game wholly centered on gang rape.  While your well-polished emo cynicism likely plays well with the twats you associate with, you then fail to have the strength of your convictions by hosting a jeepform of this scenario to show the 'mundanes' what kind of hysterical moralists they are to their faces.

In short, you are a douchebag and a coward.  You think your high-minded defence of this jeepform in the name of 'Art' is the most moral position available, when in fact, it only further demonstrates what an indefensible and bankrupt ideology 'moral relativism' has always been.

Quote from: forgersthis game [...] is not meant to be fun to play.

The purpose of a game is to have fun. If it is designed specifically not to be fun, it is not a game.

Since this forum is about roleplaying games, this is off-topic for the rpg section. It could perhaps be shunted off to "media and other inspiration", though I'm not sure it deserves to be among "creative media."

Could we have a thread shift, please?

Quote from: StormBringer;350067Clearly, you think that anyone who objects is some kind of prude or has an obsolete moral structure.  Let's see how your views survive contact with the real world.  If this is all just moral hysteria, when do you plan on setting up a session of the Gang Rape jeepform?

Quote from: Paul B;350083Ah, I see.

I'm having trouble reconciling your understanding with the fact that I actually said the opposite, repeatedly, throughout this very thread. Please do go ahead and check.

I'll wait. It won't take long, buttercup.

No problem, man...I'm bored, so I checked for you:

Quote from: Paul B;349804Kneejerk moralists crack me up. It's BADD all over again!

OMG think of the children.

Quote from: Paul B;349985...Self-righteous moralists...self-righteous moralists...

So when I see some kneejerk moralist going off on something so utterly irrelevant...

And the kneejerk moralists can blow me. You're serving nobody but yourselves.

So...let me get this straight.  You object to this game, but you didn't bother mentioning this fact until page 6 or so, when you had previously called anyone who ALSO objected to this game a "kneejerk moralist", repeatedly, for expressing their objection to the game.

So what's the damn problem?  They didn't object in a manner that you found to your liking?

Huh. With reading comprehension skills like that, Stormbringer, it's a wonder you've ever made your way through an RPG book.

The name-calling was sweet, though. I'm glad you care so much.

Quote from: Paul B;350090Huh. With reading comprehension skills like that, Stormbringer, it's a wonder you've ever made your way through an RPG book.

The name-calling was sweet, though. I'm glad you care so much.

"You just don't understand me!  Waaaaahh!"

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;350086The purpose of a game is to have fun. If it is designed specifically not to be fun, it is not a game.

Since this forum is about roleplaying games, this is off-topic for the rpg section. It could perhaps be shunted off to "media and other inspiration", though I'm not sure it deserves to be among "creative media."

Could we have a thread shift, please?

I agree. Based on an actual reading of the PDF posted in the original post, I think that Gang Rape - and maybe jeepforms in general - don't qualify as games so much as some sort of group pseudoeducational activity. Why anyone would want to do such a thing when there are presumably genuinely fun freeform LARPs available at the same convention, I have no fucking idea.

Quote from: Warthur;350114I agree. Based on an actual reading of the PDF posted in the original post, I think that Gang Rape - and maybe jeepforms in general - don't qualify as games so much as some sort of group pseudoeducational activity. Why anyone would want to do such a thing when there are presumably genuinely fun freeform LARPs available at the same convention, I have no fucking idea.

Their lives are boring and their work/home-life carries no meaning for them so they're forced to seek meaning elsewhere?

That's one of my own thoughts as to why "roleplaying" characters evolved out of D&D, and why there was a sort of refocusing on character and "plot" in 80's modules as D&D matured.  It's hard for people to divorce meaning from things, and so you end up with some people who enjoy playing a more "coherent" or "focused" type of game.  At the extreme end of that, you've got these guys, just as you've got the hardcore mega-killer-dungeon fans on the other end.

Exactly why people do deviant things isn't important.

Whats important is that this is not a game. It no more belongs in this subforum than does a transcript of the authour's last group therapy session.

Exploration of the darker side of human nature may or may not be a good or useful thing to do. But it's not fun, and is not a game. This forum is about roleplaying games.

Take it to rpg.net's Tangency Open, where it belongs.

After reading the .pdf in the first post all i could think of was how it seemed more like one of those arty pieces of crap morality filled amature drama club plays that i used to have to sit through in secondary school, well cept for the raping bit but i guess it'll be handled about as well by the idiots who plan to run this train wreck in waiting as the subjects covered in the "plays" i had to put up with back then.

Definitely not a game though under any conceivable context known to man(or beast) so i agree this topic needs to be moved to someplace non rpg related(a bin would be the best place imo).

I read the PDF too, and now I regret it. What a self-important, twee piece of crap. Not to mention off-the-scale creepy.

This thing shouldn't exist. The author waffles early on about whether or not he should have published it. He should have gone with his instincts and deleted the fucking thing.

This is not acceptable or excusable.

Quote from: ticopelp;350125The author waffles early on about whether or not he should have published it. He should have gone with his instincts and deleted the fucking thing.

We can help him out by ignoring him.

A lot of people are acting as if they were personally invited to try out this "game," which they were not. It's nasty, it's dark, and I really can't imagine who I would want to play this with, but in all honesty, if this float's someone's boat, so be it. As I've already said, it's not any creepier than stuff I've known people to do for their own sexual kicks, or as part of performance art for a certain kind of audience.

The reason people should be uncomfortable is the fact that one of the most popular mainstream LARPs (Vampire) necessarily addresses a number of metaphorical rape acts. If you want to argue that no one should ever play a vampire RPG of any sort, I'll agree the gang rape RPG is out of bounds by that criterion.

Adding fantastic elements may create distance and increase comfort, but it in no way changes the moral stakes of a game of pretend.

Ahh yes, the "D&D is genocide" argument.  

I'm sorry to say, but Paul B already beat you to that one.

Quote from: J Arcane;350143Ahh yes, the "D&D is genocide" argument.  

Wow, genocide? Do we have to go any further than armed robbery?