Quote from: GnomeWorks;350050You claim it's a shield. Why? What makes you so certain that they did it for any reason other than that one?

Because of exactly what I said in the next paragraph.  Quoting by part does horrid things to context.  

An RPG convention is a rubbish way to raise public awareness for a cause that isn't RPG-related already.  It's not a political forum, nor is it one with much influence or impact on the outside world.

There are many much better arenas one could broach the issue, and indeed, it seems the issue is already well known and widely debated in the country already.  

QuoteEh, I'm a philosophy student. You have no idea how often I hear that my efforts are a waste of time.

I'm going for a degree in computer history.  You've got nothing on me.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;350055My complete and utter hatred of Platonic forms pretty much makes any reasonable response to this impossible... but I'll try.

Sub in "the very definition of trolling" then.  I was going for a touch of hyperbole.  

QuoteI find the basic premise of this opinion very strange. Do you people not engage in discussion - argument, even - over a variety of topics with your social circle? I do this all the time, on a regular basis. I can't recall the last time a day went by where I didn't get in an argument.

When there are people who disagree, of course arguments occur.

When no one does, but someone insists on arguing about it anyway?  They tend not to remain friends after a while, or at the very least create a lot of pointless strife and piss everyone off.  

I had a guy like that in one of my previous game groups.  He was a pain in the ass, and eventually quit the game because everyone was tired of his shit and he knew it.

The specific effects of sexual violence on victims are clearly observable in the form of lesions formed upon and within brain tissue. Consequently, anyone who, by accident or design, inflicts such violence is beating the victim not on the head but directly on 'exposed' brain tissue.

Care to offer me a philosphical defence of that?

Quote from: StormBringer;350003But, it shouldn't be a problem, right?  I mean, you don't even really have to play, you can just organize the event and let us know how it turned out.  I am sure the average game store customer will be swayed by your cogent moral argument when you explain that you are hosting a event that simulates the aftermath of gang rape.

Hey StormBringer, for my own clarification could you please state what you understand my cogent moral argument to be?

Quote from: paul b;350061hey stormbringer, for my own clarification could you please state what you understand my cogent moral argument to be?

"wah!  Mommy took my toys away!"

Quote from: J Arcane;350056Because of exactly what I said in the next paragraph.  Quoting by part does horrid things to context.  

Fair enough.

QuoteAn RPG convention is a rubbish way to raise public awareness for a cause that isn't RPG-related already.  It's not a political forum, nor is it one with much influence or impact on the outside world.

There are many much better arenas one could broach the issue, and indeed, it seems the issue is already well known and widely debated in the country already.  

Doesn't it make sense, though, to use the medium you're most familiar with to make political points, if that is one's goal? Artists do it all the time, why not game design?

QuoteI'm going for a degree in computer history.  You've got nothing on me.

Hmm... perhaps, good sir. Perhaps.

QuoteSub in "the very definition of trolling" then. I was going for a touch of hyperbole.

I don't get it.

QuoteWhen no one does, but someone insists on arguing about it anyway? They tend not to remain friends after a while, or at the very least create a lot of pointless strife and piss everyone off.

You seem to be equating argument with anger. I don't understand that equivalence.

I argue about things all the time. It doesn't mean I'm emotionally attached to the things I'm arguing about. The same goes for the vast majority of my social circle, which covers a lot of ground in terms of employment, education, social status, background, and interests.

Quote from: Diavilo;350058Care to offer me a philosphical defence of that?

...of what, exactly?

Fact is fact. If that actually happens, then there's not really much more to be said about it than that. Since you're bringing it up, and I have little reason to doubt you, I'm willing to accept that that is a thing that happens.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;350063Doesn't it make sense, though, to use the medium you're most familiar with to make political points, if that is one's goal? Artists do it all the time, why not game design?

I tend to think a lot of those similar artists in other mediums are also pillocks, so this line isn't liable to garner much sympathy from me.

This is about as meritorious as piss Christ and pregnant Britney.

QuoteI don't get it.

AS in, for your sake, read my line as "Most people tend to regard deliberately starting an argument where none was present as pretty much the very definition of trolling."

QuoteYou seem to be equating argument with anger. I don't understand that equivalence.

I argue about things all the time. It doesn't mean I'm emotionally attached to the things I'm arguing about. The same goes for the vast majority of my social circle, which covers a lot of ground in terms of employment, education, social status, background, and interests.

I think you're find most average people do not argue for fun, nor do they go out of their way to start them when they have no stake in either potential side.

Starting an argument for argument's sake is often a poor idea in most any of the social circles I've been apart of.

I personally find it more strange how some people apparently equate good conversation or discussion with argument.  As if the former is somehow impossible without the latter, which is frankly bollocks, and makes me wonder what their social lives are like.

Quote from: Paul B;350061Hey StormBringer, for my own clarification could you please state what you understand my cogent moral argument to be?

Clearly, you think that anyone who objects is some kind of prude or has an obsolete moral structure.  Let's see how your views survive contact with the real world.  If this is all just moral hysteria, when do you plan on setting up a session of the Gang Rape jeepform?

Quote from: J Arcane;350066I tend to think a lot of those similar artists in other mediums are also pillocks, so this line isn't liable to garner much sympathy from me.

This is about as meritorious as piss Christ and pregnant Britney.

Heh... I didn't say that I agreed with it, or thought it was effective. Just saying that perhaps that's what they were thinking.

I would tend to agree with you, though. It does seem a pretty craptastic way to try to get your message across. Certainly isn't the first thing that would cross my mind, that's for sure.

QuoteAS in, for your sake, read my line as "Most people tend to regard deliberately starting an argument where none was present as pretty much the very definition of trolling."

Which doesn't really make sense to me, because - while that certainly does seem to be part of trolling - trolling to me also implies a certain level of spite.

QuoteI think you're find most average people do not argue for fun, nor do they go out of their way to start them when they have no stake in either potential side.

Starting an argument for argument's sake is often a poor idea in most any of the social circles I've been apart of.

Fair enough, on both counts.

QuoteI personally find it more strange how some people apparently equate good conversation or discussion with argument.  As if the former is somehow impossible without the latter, which is frankly bollocks, and makes me wonder what their social lives are like.

It occurs to me that we may just be having a terminological issue, here. It's very possible that what I call an argument you would simply call a discussion.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;350068Which doesn't really make sense to me, because - while that certainly does seem to be part of trolling - trolling to me also implies a certain level of spite.

I think most do it more for their own amusement than any sense of malice, although I suppose you could interpret that in itself as a kind of spite.

I've been known to wade in like a good 4channer and drop a trollpost now and again, and it certainly wasn't for any reason other than because it's hilarious fun.  

QuoteIt occurs to me that we may just be having a terminological issue, here. It's very possible that what I call an argument you would simply call a discussion.

Perhaps.  An argument to me implies a sense of two-sided verbal combat, of the sort that online seems to seek out as much as possible, but in terms of real life discussion usually leads nowhere good.  There's nothing wrong to me with two people discussing something on which they agree, or have no divisive opinion on, but to hear some people online tell it that would be the death of all talk.

Argument, discussion or whatever this has turned into, I'm afraid I've become lost.  My understanding is this:

J. Arcane posted a thread about some kind of weird pseudo-LARP game which uses gang rape as a theme while at the same time issuing a disclaimer saying it isn't supposed to be fun, presumably to deflect criticism by saying that it serves some higher moral purpose.

Paul B. equates the revulsion of multiple posters to this game to the reaction some parents had to early RPG's.

Stormbringer and several others criticize him for the comparison.

Gnomeworks urges civilized debate over name calling and gets into a long debate about it with J. Arcane.

My thoughts on this "game" as has been more eloquently stated by others, is that turning a violent criminal act which can cause great physical and mental harm to the victim into a game both diminishes the seriousness of the crime and tarnishes RPG's and LARP by associating itself with those genres.

Is anyone actually saying that this is an appropriate subject for a game?  Or that the person who did this, probably as an excuse to act out deviant impulses under the guise of jeepforming or whatever should be immune from criticism?

Holy shit, this is how they think they are educating people ? No, let's organize a march or support shelters or even inform people about shelters or hold seminars in schools or something, no, they choose to make a game where a normal rational person actually get's to play a rapist. This is what bothers me the most. Honestly, I am not too worried about the hobby. Now, I know you guys are gonna go all dogpile mode on me, so GnomeWorks, just chill out for a moment and go read Anais Nin or something.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: StormBringer;350067Clearly, you think that anyone who objects is some kind of prude or has an obsolete moral structure.

Ah, I see.

I'm having trouble reconciling your understanding with the fact that I actually said the opposite, repeatedly, throughout this very thread. Please do go ahead and check.

I'll wait. It won't take long, buttercup.

Quote from: David R;350082Holy shit, this is how they think they are educating people ? No, let's organize a march or support shelters or even inform people about shelters or hold seminars in schools or something, no, they choose to make a game where a normal rational person actually get's to play a rapist. This is what bothers me the most. Honestly, I am not too worried about the hobby. Now, I know you guys are gonna go all dogpile mode on me, so GnomeWorks, just chill out for a moment and go read Anais Nin or something.

Regards,
David R

No dogpile here, I agree fully.  It is I think worth further note that the authors have attempted a modicum of secrecy around the whole thing.

If you're seriously attempting to raise awareness of something, telling people to refer to it only by codewords to avoid Google, and hiding it in obscure filesharing sites, doesn't seem to be a good way of doing so either.  

If this is a thing to be proud of, as a genuine attempt towards a good faith analysis of the situation, you'd think the author wouldn't be so afraid to be associated with it.

However, I am personally proud to say, that this thread is now the #2 result on Google for "gang rape rpg", followed by links to stories about actual gang rapes, FATAL, and the Violence RPG.  So much for that plan.