Although I'm not interested in FtA I just want to say that I have been very satisfied with all the products I have bought from Clash. Honesty is rare commodity in this hobby and it's something that I associate with Clash. I don't want to get into the whole proofreader/playtester discussion, but if Clash says the product was playtested to his satisfaction and any "bugs" were corrected, I'll take his word for it...something I can't say I'll do for most rpg designers.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RAlthough I'm not interested in FtA I just want to say that I have been very satisfied with all the products I have bought from Clash. Honesty is rare commodity in this hobby and it's something that I associate with Clash. I don't want to get into the whole proofreader/playtester discussion, but if Clash says the product was playtested to his satisfaction and any "bugs" were corrected, I'll take his word for it...something I can't say I'll do for most rpg designers.

Regards,
David R

If this were one of Clash's personal endeavors, I wouldn't doubt him for a second, though I've found that several of the third-party BMG releases suffer in this department (i.e., they often seem to lack the benefit of extensive testing in actual play and have a "rushed to production" feel). I know, because I actually bothered to play them (sometimes I didn't have a choice). Since some butt-hurt individual will no doubt ask for examples, I'll give them. . .

I can think of two such games right off the top of my head -- Point Buy Numbers and Sponge Monkeys from Outer Space. Both of these games suffer from oversight that I believe would have been caught if either had been playtested thoroughly. PBN is, for the most part, a copy and paste hack of a pre-exisitng product that carries over the major (and oft mentioned) flaws from said product. Sponge Monkeys lacks a clearly defined premise. Both of these are rather large gaffes that any credible measure of blind playtesting would have uncovered.

[Edit: I guess I should mention that, although I disclosed these issues in reviews, I didn't need to ask pointed questions because I wasn't paying for the products. I am considering paying for FtA and, thus, I'm asking pointed questions because I want to make sure that I'm not buying Fantasy Sponge Monkeys or Point Buy Dungeons.]

Quote from: jdrakehIf this were one of Clash's personal endeavors, I wouldn't doubt him for a second, though I've found that several of the third-party BMG releases suffer in this department (i.e., they often seem to lack the benefit of extensive testing in actual play and have a "rushed to production" feel). I know, because I actually bothered to play them (sometimes I didn't have a choice). Since some butt-hurt individual will no doubt ask for examples, I'll give them. . .

James, I don't know much about the industry but isn't FtA one of Clash's "personal endeavours" by this I mean surely he would apply the same standards for all his products.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RJames, I don't know much about the industry but isn't FtA one of Clash's "personal endeavours" by this I mean surely he would apply the same standards for all his products.

Read my entire post. The answer is clearly "no" as products authored by Clash himself stand head and shoulders above several third-party products published under his imprint (again, see Sponge Monkeys from Outer Space and Point Buy Numbers).

Indeed, I went back and read my RPGNow reviews of the products in question and realized that I was pretty generous with the 3-Star ratings. . . because I knew and like the publisher (Clash). If you read the actual reviews, the products merit a 2-Star rating tops.

No, the same QC standard is not applied across all BMG products. I get the impression that, in the case of imprint material, it is the actual designer who is in charge of primary QC. Some do a good job (Kyle) and some seem to have ignored it completely (Shanya).

Quote from: jdrakehNo, the same QC standard is not applied across all BMG products. I get the impression that, in the case of imprint material, it is the actual designer who is in charge of primary QC. Some do a good job (Kyle) and some seem to have ignored it completely (Shanya).

Interesting, I wasn't aware of this.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RInteresting, I wasn't aware of this.

Regards,
David R

Be aware that this is just my opinion as a game reviewer who had the opportunity to compare numerous products from literally hundreds of designers side-by-side. Though it all my inbox was literally flooded with whiney "I deserve special treatment!" complaints from many publishers, some of whom post here. It's worth mentioning that Clash wasn't one of them.

[Edit: Just had a thought. It is entirely possible that the seeming "Let the designer deal with QC" approach has changed in the intervening year. It has been a while since I looked at a BMG product. I think that Tribes of Mother Night was the last.]

James, interesting views on some of the games over at BMG and as usual your comments on the industry were appreciated. As far as FtA is concerned if Clash says there was enough playtesting, it's good enough for me.

Pundit, good job on the FtA thread. I've linked the thread to my group who may be interested in your game.

Regards,
David R

The question of exactly what the playtesting consisted of has been answered to the best of my ability in the FtA Q&A thread on the Pundit's Forum.  

As to why there's only two sets of playtesters mentioned in the PDF, that's because if you look at the credits its not divided by playtest rounds, but by playtests of the alpha version and the beta version.

In reality, there IS an inconsistency there, but its not what is being implied here; rather, its that Settembrini should probably have been listed in both the Alpha and Beta playtests, the way that Esteban was.

Round 1 of playtesting consisted of everyone listed in the "Alpha Credits", and was run by me personally. Round 2 consisted of Settembrini and Federico Pereira in two different groups (one here in Uruguay, the other consisting of a number of playtest sessions in Germany), and I was not directly involved. Both of these were with the "Alpha" rules.

Round 3 consisted of the people mentioned in the "Beta" credits, and I was not directly involved in these playtests in any way, they were organized and supervised by Clash.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jdrakehI can think of two such games right off the top of my head -- Point Buy Numbers and Sponge Monkeys from Outer Space. Both of these games suffer from oversight that I believe would have been caught if either had been playtested thoroughly.

James, BMT consists of a number of imprints. Clash is Flying Mice. Point Buy Numbers is Chine Games. Sponge Monkeys is Timeless Games. Three different companies, three different ways of doing things. You can't compare one to the other. They all work independently of one another.

Speaking for Sponge Monkeys, it was play tested. I don't know what your definition of thoroughly is, so I can't comment on that. It was play tested for four or five months. No, it didn't include a lot of setting detail (your main complaint with the game), but that wasn't the thrust of the game. It was designed to be a simple game that required little character development. The play test focused on the mechanic (the part you liked), not the life and times of the Sponge Monkeys. Nonetheless, the short comings you mentioned in the game are valid. These are things I took to heart as I developer, and have since incorporated into my designs. That's where you, the reviewer, plays a crucial role.

I am only wading in here, because it's unfair of you to paint Clash with a broad brush. Clash is very meticulous in his work. He is also a longtime game designer. He is also (and this is most rare) a decent human being.

Quote from: RPGPunditAs to why there's only two sets of playtesters mentioned in the PDF, that's because if you look at the credits its not divided by playtest rounds, but by playtests of the alpha version and the beta version.

Ah, that would be the problem! Typically, the terms 'alpha' and 'beta' refer to rounds of playtest as well as game revisions

Quote from: JohnnyWannabeThese are things I took to heart as I developer, and have since incorporated into my designs.

I saw that in The Creep Chronicle (my only complaint with it was a lack of thorough editing/proofreading). Very good stuff, per my review at Flames Rising.

Quote from: jdrakehI saw that in The Creep Chronicle (my only complaint with it was a lack of thorough editing/proofreading). Very good stuff, per my review at Flames Rising.

Yes, I saw the review. Thanks. As for editing/proofreading . . . well . . . damn it all! Just once I'd like something to go out that door that didn't have a "there" for "their" or an "accept" for "except" or a paragraph that mysteriously ends, mid-sentence.:mad:  

Ah well, you know how it goes.

Back to FtA - and all of Clash's projects for that matter. As an insider, I can tell you he spends a lot, and I mean a lot, of time before he lets anything go out the door. When I first got into this "game designer" malarky he was working on Cold Space, a good year or two before it saw the light of day. As a selfish gamer, I kept pressuring him to release Cold Space. I wanted to play the game. It was a long wait.

Quote from: flyingmiceZomben: The print book has a short pdf preview in gray scale. I'll be generating one for rpgnow tonight. It was late by the time I got done uploading last night.

I'm looking forward to see that. I'd especially like to see the character sheet... This is one of the first things I check before any purchase.

I'm looking forward to getting a copy once I have a paycheck come in. I was looking for a traditional-school fantasy role-playing game to play with my dad and some friends some time, and it's either this or D&D Cyclopedia. I've got the latter, but I'm enthusiastic about F:TA! as well.

And I can get a copy of it new, in print, which is a plus. Of course, I'll be watching reviews and stuff too.

Quote from: SkyrockI'm looking forward to see that. I'd especially like to see the character sheet... This is one of the first things I check before any purchase.

The Character Sheet is AWESOME! It wasn't mine or Clash's, it was designed by one of my friends, Cristian, and he did an incredible job.  Originally he just designed it for the playtest, but it looked so awesome that we decided that neither Clash nor I could do as good a job.

Clash, is there anywhere you could post the character sheet? Because I agree that this is DEFINITELY something gamers should get the chance to see to help them decide.

RPGPundit