There will be spoilers in this thread, but please give it a few days for those catching up.
I've watched the first two episodes. I'm enjoying it. The writing feels like Willow. There are parts that feel really out of place, especially the character of Kit. She talks and acts like she's a modern American and not a character from a fantasy world.
Yes, for those of us wary of culture war identity poiltics bullshit, there's a gay kiss. I wouldn't even mention it, but here we are, where it's a talking point to pander to the woke idiots out there, instead of telling a good story. Thankfully, that's about the end of it. There hasn't been any condescening speeches or posturing.
So, after a couple of days, we can talk about spoilers, but I'm interested in everyone's first impressions. I'm fairly positive.
I read the first two books of the series written by Chris Claremont and they were great. Sadly the third book took took its own sweet ass time to come out and I lost interest in the trilogy.
If they can stay close to Claremont's story, the series should be a success.
The series plot isn't based on Claremont's books. It's an original plot.
I found the plot to be very derivative and generic. There are a few diverse/woke touches in the casting, but the writing is extremely cliche. Aside from the casting, the characters are still written as well-trod archetypes: the princess who isn't satisfied with her arranged marriage, the loyal knight torn between contrasting oaths, the wise old mentor, the young chosen one who is ignorant of their destiny, the criminal rogue who is press ganged into joining the quest, the evil villains who do evil for inexplicable reasons, the princeling kidnapped by the villain for dark designs, etc.
But at least it's not dripping with the obnoxious contempt for straight white males like She-Hulk was.
What in the actual, factual fuck is up with the end credit music?
Watching modern adaptions is like walking down the hallway with the school bully that always knocks your books out of your hands, but thinking "today I think he might give me a cookie instead!"
I stopped torturing myself/hate watching, years ago.
Quote from: Thornhammer on December 03, 2022, 07:00:21 PM
What in the actual, factual fuck is up with the end credit music?
Yes, that's my least liked part of the series. It's like those 90's films that smash cut to a rock song.
Specifics for eps 1-2.
I don't like Kit. She's the prototypical whiny princess who don't wanna get arranged married. Bitching that they should marry whomever they want.
I do like that Sorscha dressed her down for being a petulant twat.
Beyond that, Ruby Cruz plays the character like a 2022 American dropped into a fantasy world. It's downright jarring.
Arik, I actually do like. Everyone takes him for a fluff head, but there's depth of character that peeks out at the appropriate moments.
Spoiler. I actually did not expect Dove/Brunhilde to be Elora Dannan. I mean, as soon as Willow walked up to her, I was like "Oh, yeah. Of course.".
The cliff scene. What the heck was that? It seemed like the scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where the perspective was forced to look like a much further drop, but they didn't really demonstrate that. It came off as a really tall cliff that just wasn't that tall in another scene... ???
Willow. I'm dissapointed that he's not a sorcerer by now. He's still the pig farmer with a few stage tricks and a wand. Sorscha even says he'll never be a true sorcerer.
I hope this is a "setting up obstacles" moment.
I liked the de-aging CGI for the flashback scenes. Was it even CGI, or just makeup?
It's in an odd place. I can see this series going Hard Woke, but so far there's nothing that's too aggregious, or couldn't be taken as setup for future payoff. (Willow wanting to train Elora from an early age, Sorscha wanting to protect her...)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 03, 2022, 08:18:39 PM
Specifics for eps 1-2.
I don't like Kit. She's the prototypical whiny princess who don't wanna get arranged married. Bitching that they should marry whomever they want.
I do like that Sorscha dressed her down for being a petulant twat.
Beyond that, Ruby Cruz plays the character like a 2022 American dropped into a fantasy world. It's downright jarring.
Arik, I actually do like. Everyone takes him for a fluff head, but there's depth of character that peeks out at the appropriate moments.
Spoiler. I actually did not expect Dove/Brunhilde to be Elora Dannan. I mean, as soon as Willow walked up to her, I was like "Oh, yeah. Of course.".
The cliff scene. What the heck was that? It seemed like the scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where the perspective was forced to look like a much further drop, but they didn't really demonstrate that. It came off as a really tall cliff that just wasn't that tall in another scene... ???
Willow. I'm dissapointed that he's not a sorcerer by now. He's still the pig farmer with a few stage tricks and a wand. Sorscha even says he'll never be a true sorcerer.
I hope this is a "setting up obstacles" moment.
I liked the de-aging CGI for the flashback scenes. Was it even CGI, or just makeup?
It's in an odd place. I can see this series going Hard Woke, but so far there's nothing that's too aggregious, or couldn't be taken as setup for future payoff. (Willow wanting to train Elora from an early age, Sorscha wanting to protect her...)
Is "Kit" the Katness-looking chick? I thought the main character was supposed to be Elora Dannan, the baby from the original Willow movie?
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 03, 2022, 08:18:39 PM
It's in an odd place. I can see this series going Hard Woke, but so far there's nothing that's too aggregious, or couldn't be taken as setup for future payoff.
What series are you watching? The only male characters (other than Willow) are totally outshined by all of the women. It so woke that the primary female characters can't even be
in love with a man. And Willow is being set up to be a spectator in his own series (Boba Fett, is that you?). Every character we're supposed to like is a whiny, female, teenage narcissist, and the male characters are old, incapable, or "toxic" (how dare the prince like having sex with multiple women! Only powerful women like She-Hulk are allowed to have sex without consequences). This thing is so woke that it makes caffeine blush...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 03, 2022, 10:14:39 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 03, 2022, 08:18:39 PM
It's in an odd place. I can see this series going Hard Woke, but so far there's nothing that's too aggregious, or couldn't be taken as setup for future payoff.
What series are you watching? The only male characters (other than Willow) are totally outshined by all of the women. It so woke that the primary female characters can't even be in love with a man. And Willow is being set up to be a spectator in his own series (Boba Fett, is that you?). Every character we're supposed to like is a whiny, female, teenage narcissist, and the male characters are old, incapable, or "toxic" (how dare the prince like having sex with multiple women! Only powerful women like She-Hulk are allowed to have sex without consequences). This thing is so woke that it makes caffeine blush...
These shows and movies are meant to demoralize and normalize, and it's working. I regularly see things described as "not really woke" that would have been considered very woke 5 years ago.
Tolerance varies. Personally I'm totally burned out on it to where I can't watch new stuff because the first time I hear "have to work twice as hard as a white guy" or see a Detroit cop acting like a 1960's Deep South redneck Sheriff, I have to nope out.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 03, 2022, 10:22:59 PMThese shows and movies are meant to demoralize and normalize, and it's working. I regularly see things described as "not really woke" that would have been considered very woke 5 years ago.
Tolerance varies. Personally I'm totally burned out on it to where I can't watch new stuff because the first time I hear "have to work twice as hard as a white guy" or see a Detroit cop acting like a 1960's Deep South redneck Sheriff, I have to nope out.
Yup. Many people give in just to get new content.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 03, 2022, 08:30:57 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 03, 2022, 08:18:39 PM
Specifics for eps 1-2.
I don't like Kit. She's the prototypical whiny princess who don't wanna get arranged married. Bitching that they should marry whomever they want.
I do like that Sorscha dressed her down for being a petulant twat.
Beyond that, Ruby Cruz plays the character like a 2022 American dropped into a fantasy world. It's downright jarring.
Arik, I actually do like. Everyone takes him for a fluff head, but there's depth of character that peeks out at the appropriate moments.
Spoiler. I actually did not expect Dove/Brunhilde to be Elora Dannan. I mean, as soon as Willow walked up to her, I was like "Oh, yeah. Of course.".
The cliff scene. What the heck was that? It seemed like the scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where the perspective was forced to look like a much further drop, but they didn't really demonstrate that. It came off as a really tall cliff that just wasn't that tall in another scene... ???
Willow. I'm dissapointed that he's not a sorcerer by now. He's still the pig farmer with a few stage tricks and a wand. Sorscha even says he'll never be a true sorcerer.
I hope this is a "setting up obstacles" moment.
I liked the de-aging CGI for the flashback scenes. Was it even CGI, or just makeup?
It's in an odd place. I can see this series going Hard Woke, but so far there's nothing that's too aggregious, or couldn't be taken as setup for future payoff. (Willow wanting to train Elora from an early age, Sorscha wanting to protect her...)
Is "Kit" the Katness-looking chick? I thought the main character was supposed to be Elora Dannan, the baby from the original Willow movie?
Yes. And I thought the main character was supposed to be the one the series is named after.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 03, 2022, 10:28:26 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 03, 2022, 10:22:59 PMThese shows and movies are meant to demoralize and normalize, and it's working. I regularly see things described as "not really woke" that would have been considered very woke 5 years ago.
Tolerance varies. Personally I'm totally burned out on it to where I can't watch new stuff because the first time I hear "have to work twice as hard as a white guy" or see a Detroit cop acting like a 1960's Deep South redneck Sheriff, I have to nope out.
Yup. Many people give in just to get new content.
I have a friend who is the walking personification of "Don't ask questions, just consume product and get excited for next product." I'm talking every Disney and WB's movie and show, every (ugh) CW show. Slap an IP on it, and he eats it up, defends it, then tries to get others to "enjoy" it.
He's a really nice fella, good to game or talk lore with, but his "must see" Evangelicalism can be annoying, and his taste is utter dog shit.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 03, 2022, 10:14:39 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 03, 2022, 08:18:39 PM
It's in an odd place. I can see this series going Hard Woke, but so far there's nothing that's too aggregious, or couldn't be taken as setup for future payoff.
What series are you watching? The only male characters (other than Willow) are totally outshined by all of the women.
What series are
you watching? Boorman has been shown to be just as competent, plus he's got more experience than the others, to where he's slapped down some of the idealism of the young characters.
QuoteIt so woke that the primary female characters can't even be in love with a man.
Wat? Where did the show demonstrate that she can't be in love with a man? Her objection was to an arranged marriage.
QuoteAnd Willow is being set up to be a spectator in his own series (Boba Fett, is that you?).
That I'm worried about. I expected Willow to have become an accomplished sorcerer. But then, they also de-powered Elora Dannan to the point where she can't even cast a beginner spell, and Willow believes she's lost her aptitude for magic at all.
QuoteEvery character we're supposed to like is a whiny, female, teenage narcissist,
I'm not sure we're supposed to like them. Like I said, Sorscha berated Kit for being a petulant child.
Quoteand the male characters are old, incapable, or "toxic" (how dare the prince like having sex with multiple women! Only powerful women like She-Hulk are allowed to have sex without consequences). This thing is so woke that it makes caffeine blush...
Again, wat? The problem they had wasn't that the prince liked having sex with multiple women. The problem was they questioned his ability to "settle down" with just one.
Some of your criticisms I agree with, but others seem like you're jumping at woke shadows.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 03, 2022, 10:45:15 PMI expected Willow to have become an accomplished sorcerer. But then, they also de-powered Elora Dannan to the point where she can't even cast a beginner spell, and Willow believes she's lost her aptitude for magic at all.
That's every sequel of the past decade. Every hero that finished the movie or series as a hopeful winner, poised to right wrongs, is revealed to now be washed up and a failure. Only new DELUXO-BRAND tick box cardboard hero can clean up the shit the stupid old person left behind them.
Cue old hero turning evil, or dying pointlessly, once the cameo used for the trailer is over.
I wonder if Dove's issue in the carriage wasn't due to her dalliances with the prince.
Also didn't like Kit. Or her girlfriend. Prince Hastur just sorta occupies space.
The other guy, Boorman, he's cool. Dove is surprisingly good.
I'm on the fence about it in general, but it started off better than Andor and that took until episode 3 to get good, so it'll at least get next week.
Well.....if you can't tell from my username....Willow and the three books hold a special place in my heart.
I made it about 30 minutes of the first episode and quit. I mean I already knew there would be lgbt in there somewhere, that's a given anymore.
What really disappointed me was the lack of anything resembling a well crafted story. The producer told all you need to know about the series with this title from bounding into comics
'Willow' Producer Jonathan Kasdan Says Sequel Series' Central Lesbian Romance "Keeps Alive That Spirit Of Moving The Fantasy Genre Into A Contemporary Sound"
Wokeywood has truly lost its ability to craft and present a compelling story. I just want a good fantasy story....and this ain't it. The princesses horrible CW performance at the dance and the prince being......well milquetoast.
But I'm not pissed or angry....I've moved on. Enjoy it if you like it and have a blessed day.
Isn't this show on disney+? Why would anyone be surprised it might smash some queers into it or otherwise be some degenerate mutation of what the original story/product was? I can not see any scenario where I would pay for disney + at all, that company has looong since shown they rather push an agenda rather than make money, or simply push an agenda until they brain wash everyone into consuming what they offer regardless of degenerate content/modern problems mashed into what ever they are producing. Hard Pass.
I noticed some Lovecraft and King in Yellow references, oddly. Pnakotic, Hastur, Immemorial City... I think the writer is secretly a nerd
End of Ep 3 is unwatchable.
There is no lighting.
Being atmospheric and being viewable are not mutually exclusive concepts, for fuck's sake.
Quote from: oggsmash on December 05, 2022, 05:21:13 AM
Isn't this show on disney+? Why would anyone be surprised it might smash some queers into it or otherwise be some degenerate mutation of what the original story/product was? I can not see any scenario where I would pay for disney + at all, that company has looong since shown they rather push an agenda rather than make money, or simply push an agenda until they brain wash everyone into consuming what they offer regardless of degenerate content/modern problems mashed into what ever they are producing. Hard Pass.
yup, this. and we all know dumb disney has the agenda
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 03, 2022, 10:45:15 PM
Wat? Where did the show demonstrate that she can't be in love with a man? Her objection was to an arranged marriage.
Now that I've re-watched, I'm even more convinced that the princess doesn't want the arranged marriage because she's a lesbo. Care to refute?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 07, 2022, 09:18:23 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 03, 2022, 10:45:15 PM
Wat? Where did the show demonstrate that she can't be in love with a man? Her objection was to an arranged marriage.
Now that I've re-watched, I'm even more convinced that the princess doesn't want the arranged marriage because she's a lesbo. Care to refute?
That you're convinced? You can be convinced about whatever you like.
Ep 3. Saving spoilers for a couple of days, but the choice of music at the end of the episode was pretty cringe.
There's a reference to An American Werewolf in London
I gave a shit about Willow once, in 1988, and it will never, ever, ever happen again.
EDIT: OK, that was a bit over the top. Sorry. However, out of all the disappointing fantasy movies I've ever watched, Willow is kind of iconic for me. It's like the Last Jedi of fantasy movies, so determined to subvert all the fantasy cliches, and yet, in the end, so deeply cliched itself.
Ep 4. I really liked. I guess I'm too dense to understand the hate for the show.
I will agree that Kit and Elora are really jarring. Kit especially but Elora has her moments. They really don't 'feel' like fantasy world characters. More like Tik Tok Teens dropped into a fantasy world.
Holding spoiler comments for a couple of days.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 15, 2022, 12:58:10 AMI guess I'm too dense to understand the hate for the show.
You don't need to be dense, you just need to have shitty taste.
McDonalds is the world's most popular restaurant chain, and The Fast And The Furious franchise is the 6th most lucrative movie franchise in history.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 15, 2022, 12:58:10 AM
Ep 4. I really liked. I guess I'm too dense to understand the hate for the show.
I will agree that Kit and Elora are really jarring. Kit especially but Elora has her moments. They really don't 'feel' like fantasy world characters. More like Tik Tok Teens dropped into a fantasy world.
Your second sentence answers the question posed by your first sentence. People are sick of fantasy filled with modern, out of place characters and messaging.
Willow was a kids movie from over 30 years ago yet the sequel is a show that you can't even watch with your kids. It isn't just Disney, you see the same thing with shows like Riverdale and even Winx Club (a badly drawn copy of Sailor Moon whose live action version is TV-MA WTF?)
Perhaps the Critical Drinker can explain it to you, in his own inimitable style...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLRHR2Nou8A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLRHR2Nou8A)
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 15, 2022, 04:53:49 PM
Perhaps the Critical Drinker can explain it to you, in his own inimitable style...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLRHR2Nou8A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLRHR2Nou8A)
I've seen videos on my feed from Critical Drinker and Overlord DVD and Nerdrotica bashing the show. I haven't watched any of them because I'm super critical of some of these new shows, and I'm enjoying Willow. I think I'll finish the season before watching any critical videos.
Ep 4 spoilers.
I loved this episode. Castle Nokmar was properly menacing. I loved seeing General Kale again, even if only as a spectre. Jade had some really great moments. I thought she was headed towards the annoying female does everything right and rubs men's noses in it character, but this episode showed she has some depth. And the actress sold it. I like her a lot more than Kit or Elora at this point. :o
Favorite part was when they wound up in the tower, and Willow busts in and reminds them that's exactly what he warned them not to do. ;D
The end, while I really hate the use of pop music in the end credits, this one wasn't that intrusive, and the imagery of the Immemorial City was simply great.
Ep 5.
Saving spoilers for a couple of days. I'll say, the word for this episode is frustrating.
Merry Christmas Mother f****ers.
So, ep 5. There were plenty of moments in this ep that felt like Willow. The brownies... yes original Willow had silly brownie comic relief. The moment when Elora Danan did the butterfly thing. Borman doing the charming rogue thing with the leader of the skull people.
But, and this is a big but (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X53ZSxkQ3Ho). The intro fight/chase set to the most annoying modern music, and the last half of the episode turning into a teenager drama fest... it was a Prom in the woods! Fully half of this episode could have been ripped out and I wouldn't have missed it.
Hrrrhhh. I dunno. It's like the show has schizophrenia. One moment it's good, and the next it's taking a juicy shit on the TV screen.
If I had a magic wand, I'd give this show a do-over, and send the people making the bad decisions back in time to write for Beverly Hills 90210.
Note that I haven't mentioned the gay thing yet. That's because it's the least of this show's problems. And only in that bad teenage drama garbage way, not the gayness itself.
Episode 6, another one shot primarily in Dark-o-vision.
Decent apart from that.
Christian Slater is good, as are the bad guys in this one.
So far, 3 and 6 have basically been dungeon crawls and the only episodes I liked. 5 was the worst of the lot, really uneven and annoying. It occurred to me that what's happened is that Frajeen and Rool are drunk and writing the scripts. There was probably some dust of broken heart involved in episode 5 as well.
My brother put episode 6 on, and I was so checked out I put my headphones on and played Prodeus.
I saw out of the corner of my eye that there was a troll that talked like one of the bigfoots from that commerical, and Kit got Madmartigan's sword. Otherwise I was shooting chaos demons in the face with a shotgun.
Dissapointing. I really don't want to invest any more attention into the show knowing it's going to swerve between awful and decent at a moment's notice. Maybe I'll go watch some hate reviews and get some entertainment out of that.
Even the hate reviews couldn't entertian me, and apparently, they couldn't entertain anyone else.
'Willow' Cancelled On Disney Plus (https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2023/03/15/willow-cancelled-on-disney-plus-after-betraying-the-original-movie-and-fans/?sh=17b069271548)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 16, 2023, 12:50:12 AM
Even the hate reviews couldn't entertian me, and apparently, they couldn't entertain anyone else.
'Willow' Cancelled On Disney Plus (https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2023/03/15/willow-cancelled-on-disney-plus-after-betraying-the-original-movie-and-fans/?sh=17b069271548)
(sad trombones)
The best part is that now there's a big round of whining about how the cancellation is a slap against LGBTQWTFBBQ types.
I feel kinda bad for Warwick Davis though.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 16, 2023, 12:50:12 AM'Willow' Cancelled On Disney Plus (https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2023/03/15/willow-cancelled-on-disney-plus-after-betraying-the-original-movie-and-fans/?sh=17b069271548)
My two main takeaways are these:
1) Not every old movie or TV show needs to be a multi-generational franchise. Some movies are just movies, especially those that have a very narrow audience age range. This is because most movies don't have a broad enough background to support a sequel or a TV show. Even Star Wars, as good as it was, doesn't have much to offer once you remove Luke, Vader, and the Jedi. They had to completely rewrite much of the established lore just to have new shows like Andor or Mandalorian to the point where they are just generic sci-fi series.
2) Disney+ is screwed. For these subscription services to work, they need a constant input of new shows to get new subscribers and to keep their current subscribers from canceling their subscription. Yet Disney has realized that it can't afford to produce quality shows with the money it currently makes from subscribers. So it either needs to go into debt and hope new people show up or it needs to cancel a bunch of projects and hope people don't leave. Hope isn't much of a business plan.
Personally, I just rotate through the streaming services, Netflix one month, Paramount+ the next, etc. For the price of one streaming service, I can watch 100% of the shows that all these services create.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 17, 2023, 10:32:50 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 16, 2023, 12:50:12 AM'Willow' Cancelled On Disney Plus (https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2023/03/15/willow-cancelled-on-disney-plus-after-betraying-the-original-movie-and-fans/?sh=17b069271548)
My two main takeaways are these:
1) Not every old movie or TV show needs to be a multi-generational franchise. Some movies are just movies, especially those that have a very narrow audience age range. This is because most movies don't have a broad enough background to support a sequel or a TV show. Even Star Wars, as good as it was, doesn't have much to offer once you remove Luke, Vader, and the Jedi. They had to completely rewrite much of the established lore just to have new shows like Andor or Mandalorian to the point where they are just generic sci-fi series.
2) Disney+ is screwed. For these subscription services to work, they need a constant input of new shows to get new subscribers and to keep their current subscribers from canceling their subscription. Yet Disney has realized that it can't afford to produce quality shows with the money it currently makes from subscribers. So it either needs to go into debt and hope new people show up or it needs to cancel a bunch of projects and hope people don't leave. Hope isn't much of a business plan.
Personally, I just rotate through the streaming services, Netflix one month, Paramount+ the next, etc. For the price of one streaming service, I can watch 100% of the shows that all these services create.
No, Disney+ isn't screwed, all of the streaming services are!
There's no market for THAT many streaming services, at most Netflix + 1 or 2 more that concentrate the output of the studios.
The proof is that Disney & Warner have already said they will put some stuff on other services (likely Netflix).
When they sell the rights to Netflix they cash on it if it's a hit or a flop, they have no further risk.
The crazy idea was to transition away from physical media at all, that was their other cash cow before putting it on cable or open TV. But there was a secondary market, people buying and selling their DVDs plus the dreaded piracy, so they transition to a model that's easier to pirate, then they get greedier and don't want Netflix making any money, so they stop selling to it and become their direct competitors, so now they all have their own little walled garden where I need to sell my liver to afford it.
To put the cherry on top here comes a recession/depression... They all are fucked, imagine México, where even people who CAN buy the original often times buy the pirate, Netflix with adds costs 5 bucks/month here, for the same price I can go buy 10 pirate DVDs (100 pesos for Netflix vs 105 pesos for the piracy), each with a season of one of their shows or a movie. That's if I don't want to spend my time downloading it for free.
I bet the same is true the world over, and to make things worst for them now I would need to pay in excess of 600 pesos to have all the streaming services, they choose to get fucked with a baseball bat wrapped in barbwire sideways.
Not that I would dream of committing piracy or am recommending anyone do so or even saying I condone it, I'm just explaining the economical reality of how hard they are fucked and that it was of their own making.
Oh! Best of all? I have to sell my liver to watch their woke wankery!
Speaking of how fucked Disney is, the parks are failing:
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 17, 2023, 12:38:55 PMNo, Disney+ isn't screwed, all of the streaming services are!
There's no market for THAT many streaming services, at most Netflix + 1 or 2 more that concentrate the output of the studios.
The proof is that Disney & Warner have already said they will put some stuff on other services (likely Netflix).
When they sell the rights to Netflix they cash on it if it's a hit or a flop, they have no further risk.
All the big streaming services are hurting but IMO Disney is hurting more than most. Simply because starting their streaming service has split their focus. We saw with Star Wars that Disney was having a hard time coming up with good ideas for movies, now they have to make movies and TV shows that all mesh with one another. Marvel has been especially hit as now you need to watch the movies to understand the TV shows and watch the TV shows to understand the movies. And bad shows make people less interested in the movies and vice versa so it is a compounding failure. It's all too much.
Warner Brothers has been affected less because the DCEU was already a huge mess and HBO Max didn't make it worse. (i.e. they had less to lose).
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 17, 2023, 05:20:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 17, 2023, 12:38:55 PMNo, Disney+ isn't screwed, all of the streaming services are!
There's no market for THAT many streaming services, at most Netflix + 1 or 2 more that concentrate the output of the studios.
The proof is that Disney & Warner have already said they will put some stuff on other services (likely Netflix).
When they sell the rights to Netflix they cash on it if it's a hit or a flop, they have no further risk.
All the big streaming services are hurting but IMO Disney is hurting more than most. Simply because starting their streaming service has split their focus. We saw with Star Wars that Disney was having a hard time coming up with good ideas for movies, now they have to make movies and TV shows that all mesh with one another. Marvel has been especially hit as now you need to watch the movies to understand the TV shows and watch the TV shows to understand the movies. And bad shows make people less interested in the movies and vice versa so it is a compounding failure. It's all too much.
Warner Brothers has been affected less because the DCEU was already a huge mess and HBO Max didn't make it worse. (i.e. they had less to lose).
Oh, they ARE hurting the most, and now they're hiring the writers for Rick and Morty to write the Marvel stuff, doubling, tripling and quadrupling down on stupid with the swapping of characters. They are loosing about 1.5 Billion per quarter on the Direct-to-Consumer side of things. Meaning merch, streaming, etc, even the Parks (which used to fund their other stupid stuff) are falling way behind the competition.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 17, 2023, 05:20:23 PM
Marvel has been especially hit as now you need to watch the movies to understand the TV shows and watch the TV shows to understand the movies. And bad shows make people less interested in the movies and vice versa so it is a compounding failure. It's all too much.
Warner Brothers has been affected less because the DCEU was already a huge mess and HBO Max didn't make it worse. (i.e. they had less to lose).
In terms of stocks, all of Netflix (NFLX), Disney (DIS), Warner Bro (WBD), and Amazon (AMZN) have gone down more than the S&P 500 over the past year. The one that has held on the best is Netflix, but Disney is doing second-best. Warner Brothers has fallen the most.
I don't have a strong opinion on the business models. I know that my movie and TV tastes are not representative of what is most successful in the market.
Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2023, 06:39:49 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 17, 2023, 05:20:23 PM
Marvel has been especially hit as now you need to watch the movies to understand the TV shows and watch the TV shows to understand the movies. And bad shows make people less interested in the movies and vice versa so it is a compounding failure. It's all too much.
Warner Brothers has been affected less because the DCEU was already a huge mess and HBO Max didn't make it worse. (i.e. they had less to lose).
In terms of stocks, all of Netflix (NFLX), Disney (DIS), Warner Bro (WBD), and Amazon (AMZN) have gone down more than the S&P 500 over the past year. The one that has held on the best is Netflix, but Disney is doing second-best. Warner Brothers has fallen the most.
I don't have a strong opinion on the business models. I know that my movie and TV tastes are not representative of what is most successful in the market.
Stock "value" is a meme as proven by the stonks guys. It's worth X because people think it's worth X.
Disney is loosing Billions every quarter in revenue, the market will catch up to it soon.
My issue is that the series felt like Willow when they got it right. I gave it a huge chance because of that. But when they got it wrong, they got it terribly wrong, and so, IMO, they alienated the Willow fans, and didn't manage to draw in new fans from... whatever goddamn source they were aiming for. Tik Tok addicts? Comatose patients? Porcelian garden gnomes? I got no clue.
Hell, I wanted to love this show. I couldn't make it 15 min. through the first episode. I've been extremely sad to see shows get cancelled over the years.......but not this one. It's more relief, like putting it out of its misery.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 17, 2023, 10:24:20 AM
I feel kinda bad for Warwick Davis though.
Yeah, me too. None of this was his fault.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 17, 2023, 10:32:50 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 16, 2023, 12:50:12 AM'Willow' Cancelled On Disney Plus (https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2023/03/15/willow-cancelled-on-disney-plus-after-betraying-the-original-movie-and-fans/?sh=17b069271548)
My two main takeaways are these:
1) Not every old movie or TV show needs to be a multi-generational franchise. Some movies are just movies, especially those that have a very narrow audience age range. This is because most movies don't have a broad enough background to support a sequel or a TV show. Even Star Wars, as good as it was, doesn't have much to offer once you remove Luke, Vader, and the Jedi. They had to completely rewrite much of the established lore just to have new shows like Andor or Mandalorian to the point where they are just generic sci-fi series.
2) Disney+ is screwed. For these subscription services to work, they need a constant input of new shows to get new subscribers and to keep their current subscribers from canceling their subscription. Yet Disney has realized that it can't afford to produce quality shows with the money it currently makes from subscribers. So it either needs to go into debt and hope new people show up or it needs to cancel a bunch of projects and hope people don't leave. Hope isn't much of a business plan.
Personally, I just rotate through the streaming services, Netflix one month, Paramount+ the next, etc. For the price of one streaming service, I can watch 100% of the shows that all these services create.
I think franchises strangle creativity more than anything else. Yeah, it's nice to have a highly detailed fictional universe, but at a certain point it either loses it identity and becomes generic, or it remains idiosyncratic but crowds out any other potential stories, and/or it turns into a turd due to poor direction or was never good in the first place. Meanwhile, there are a ton of IPs that died in the cradle when they could've contributed to the genres. Many of those are still unique to this day. This goes across genres.
I'm disappointed that TSR's Star*Drive died. The setting's individual parts aren't unique, but the whole is. In trying to be generic, it produced something that isn't replicated elsewhere. It would've been a great setting for a crpg, since it has several adventures and metaplot developments to serve as the plot.
I want to see urban fantasy crpgs that aren't Harry Potter.
I want to see more creativity.
Not just cancelled, but getting pulled completely from streaming in a week.
It was a disappointment, but that seems a little harsh.
Quote from: Thornhammer on May 19, 2023, 08:08:37 PM
Not just cancelled, but getting pulled completely from streaming in a week.
It was a disappointment, but that seems a little harsh.
If it's not pulling in views... *shrug*
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 19, 2023, 09:56:20 PM
Quote from: Thornhammer on May 19, 2023, 08:08:37 PM
Not just cancelled, but getting pulled completely from streaming in a week.
It was a disappointment, but that seems a little harsh.
If it's not pulling in views... *shrug*
If it's not driving subscriptions up, remember where they get their money in the streaming model.
Quote from: Thornhammer on May 19, 2023, 08:08:37 PM
Not just cancelled, but getting pulled completely from streaming in a week.
I don't understand the economics here. The IP is owned by Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm produced the show. So how are their ongoing costs associated with just keeping the show on Disney+?
Clownfish TV seems to think that they are doing this so they can sell the streaming rights to some other streaming service but I don't see why anyone else would want to pay for a known loser with no prospect of a season 2.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 20, 2023, 03:02:32 PM
Quote from: Thornhammer on May 19, 2023, 08:08:37 PM
Not just cancelled, but getting pulled completely from streaming in a week.
I don't understand the economics here. The IP is owned by Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm produced the show. So how are their ongoing costs associated with just keeping the show on Disney+?
I don't know much about the nuts and bolts of streaming services, but I imagine the costs involve having hard drive space dedicated to holding a whole series. It's gotta be huge to store a modern TV show digitally. I know Netflix would rotate shows and movies in an out on a regular basis. If a show isn't performing they might want to use that storage space for a show that's getting more views.
And if it's not performing, it's not going to be appealing for another service to pick it up.
That's nonsense. Hard drive space is easy to buy. No, they're probably removing it so they can make it a tax writeoff. HBO Max did that for a bunch of their stuff recently. Legally, they have to keep private copies in perpetuity as evidence.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2023, 08:37:57 AM
That's nonsense. Hard drive space is easy to buy. No, they're probably removing it so they can make it a tax writeoff. HBO Max did that for a bunch of their stuff recently. Legally, they have to keep private copies in perpetuity as evidence.
This is correct, the big expense is the band width, keeping a show/movie that gets very few people watching and drives zero people to subscribe it's better to write it off.
But don't worry, the LGBTQWERTY raised a stink so they are not gonna remove some of those shows because istophobia.
I did a little digging since my last post and here's a quote from an article from Variety:
"A Disney rep confirmed that dozens of titles will be pulled off Disney+ and Hulu (see list below), starting on Friday, May 26. On the earnings call, CFO Christine McCarthy said Disney expects to take a write-down in the June quarter of $1.5 billion-$1.8 billion from removing content from its streaming platforms. By writing down the value of the content assets, Disney can remove that from its balance sheet and reduce its tax bill."
Again, I'm not super familiar with Hollywood accounting but generally if you'll save 1/3 of the loss in taxes. I seems strange that TV shows would have some sort of depreciation value but that's what it appears like. WB did the same thing with the Batwoman movie, figuring that they'll lose less money cancelling it then spending money on advertisement to try and get people to watch it.
I will say that Disney has done this sort of thing before; taking a short term benefit at the costs of term revenue. Bob Iger cancelled the Disney Infinity game and shut down their entire video game division because he was sitting on tons of unsold stock (mostly Marvel characters). The sad part is that the manager that decided to over produce the figures saw it coming and managed to transfer himself out of the video game department before it was shut down. So the person literally responsible for Disney Infinity's failure was the one guy that didn't get laid off.
The assinine thing about streaming services is, when it was just Netflix, I could, y'know, watch stuff with one sub.
Now everybody and their dog has a streaming service, and I've either got to have seperate subs for each distributor, or hop subs.
Right now I have none, I let my brother pay and mooch off of him. I just got tired of it.
It seems to me that the last stage of a property after you pull it off of streaming should be to release it on disc.
Why leave money on the table?
Quote from: Lurkndog on June 01, 2023, 09:30:29 AM
It seems to me that the last stage of a property after you pull it off of streaming should be to release it on disc.
Why leave money on the table?
Because there was no money to be had there.
I mean, if they'd rather take the tax writeoff, that tells me Willow's numbers must've been flat fucking terrible.
Quote from: Lurkndog on June 01, 2023, 09:30:29 AM
It seems to me that the last stage of a property after you pull it off of streaming should be to release it on disc.
Why leave money on the table?
You have it ass backwards, it should be:
Theaters > Disc > Streaming > Open TV
With enough time between each stage as to have an incentive to go to the theater or buy the disc.
Plus streaming is only profitable for the studios IF it's a third party buying the rights from them, which is why Netflix was a good idea up until all the studios decided to commit sepuku by launching their own streaming service thus loosing the money Netflix was paying them and still cutting into Netflix's bottom line without a real monetary profit for the studios.
I know that not many care about this topic anymore but I found out information which may shed some light on what Disney is doing.
Firstly, according to the IRS*, if a TV show or movie costs more than $15 million, it must be treated as an asset and depreciated over 10 years. So, if the TV show costs $100 million, the will get a $10 million depreciation expense for each year for the next ten years**. What Disney is doing this year is taking something called an Impairment which applies if the current asset value (original value-depreciation taken) is significantly higher than the asset's current fair market value. This allows them to write down that asset to its market value and take all that future depreciation expense in 2023. Thus paying less taxes this year at the cost of paying more taxes for the upcoming years. In effect, this all should result in the same taxes being paid and in my own business of commercial real estate we often do this (through another method) if we plan on owning a property for a short period of time.
This also explains why they are cancelling recent shows, as those shows have the most depreciation left in them to move around with this method.
However, this doesn't explains why they had to take the shows off of Disney+ unless they were doing some creative accounting. There is a current law suit where stockholders are claiming that Bob Chepek was being deceptive by having the various studios spend money to make shows for Disney+ but not having those expenses allocated to Disney+ in order to make Disney+ look like it is performing better than it actually is. This looks to me like Disney+ had agreed to pay the various studios money per year for the right to put the show on Disney+ and in order to make it look like those shows have no future income potential, Disney had to cancel the current contract and pull the show. Thus I don't see why they couldn't add these shows back a few years from now.
You might be wondering why they are going through all this effort just to move expenses around, but the consensus I'm seeing is that Disney needs at least $8 billion to pay for the last third of Hulu which is due in January of next year and they are a bit short on liquid assets.
*https://www.irs.gov/publications/p946#en_US_2022_publink1000107351
**There is a another way to calculate depreciation rather than a straight line, but that won't really affect the core issue here.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 07, 2023, 08:25:49 PM
I know that not many care about this topic anymore but I found out information which may shed some light on what Disney is doing.
Firstly, according to the IRS*, if a TV show or movie costs more than $15 million, it must be treated as an asset and depreciated over 10 years. So, if the TV show costs $100 million, the will get a $10 million depreciation expense for each year for the next ten years**. What Disney is doing this year is taking something called an Impairment which applies if the current asset value (original value-depreciation taken) is significantly higher than the asset's current fair market value. This allows them to write down that asset to its market value and take all that future depreciation expense in 2023. Thus paying less taxes this year at the cost of paying more taxes for the upcoming years. In effect, this all should result in the same taxes being paid and in my own business of commercial real estate we often do this (through another method) if we plan on owning a property for a short period of time.
This also explains why they are cancelling recent shows, as those shows have the most depreciation left in them to move around with this method.
However, this doesn't explains why they had to take the shows off of Disney+ unless they were doing some creative accounting. There is a current law suit where stockholders are claiming that Bob Chepek was being deceptive by having the various studios spend money to make shows for Disney+ but not having those expenses allocated to Disney+ in order to make Disney+ look like it is performing better than it actually is. This looks to me like Disney+ had agreed to pay the various studios money per year for the right to put the show on Disney+ and in order to make it look like those shows have no future income potential, Disney had to cancel the current contract and pull the show. Thus I don't see why they couldn't add these shows back a few years from now.
You might be wondering why they are going through all this effort just to move expenses around, but the consensus I'm seeing is that Disney needs at least $8 billion to pay for the last third of Hulu which is due in January of next year and they are a bit short on liquid assets.
*https://www.irs.gov/publications/p946#en_US_2022_publink1000107351
**There is a another way to calculate depreciation rather than a straight line, but that won't really affect the core issue here.
I've heard that speculation about Disney playing shell games with their money before. It really doesn't bode well, as at the end of the day it's not really actual income.
The Hulu thing is hilarious because it was a terrible deal. Disney is on the hook and it does not surprise me they have liquidity problems considering their spending sprees over the last several years.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 01, 2023, 02:00:21 PM
You have it ass backwards, it should be:
Theaters > Disc > Streaming > Open TV
With enough time between each stage as to have an incentive to go to the theater or buy the disc.
Plus streaming is only profitable for the studios IF it's a third party buying the rights from them, which is why Netflix was a good idea up until all the studios decided to commit sepuku by launching their own streaming service thus loosing the money Netflix was paying them and still cutting into Netflix's bottom line without a real monetary profit for the studios.
I mention disc last because some companies, Disney mainly, seem to not release on disc at all if they can help it. For instance, I want Mandalorian blu-rays, and there are none to be had, apart from possibly sailing the high seas. I'm amazed I got Star Wars Rebels on blu-ray.
It used to be that the strategy was to release on disc immediately before the next season dropped. That way the discs on shelves acted as free advertisement to remind people of the show, and if fans bought the discs and rewatched the show, and got stoked to see the new season, so much the better.