QuoteSo one can create a "faith" and use that "faith" to support a personality cult without having to bring the supernatural into the picture at all, right?

Absolutely.
If I haven't been clear before I'm against ALL faith, not just religious faith. The pernicious unreason and inability to process data that is also present in most political ideologies and nationalism.

QuoteAccepting that interpretation, for the sake of argument, the point is that Stalin's purges were not caused by religion and his atheism didn't stop him.  As you point out, "atheism HAS no motivational dogma".  That cuts both ways.  While that means it may not have motivated Stalin to kill, it certainly didn't give him any pause about killing, either.

Nope, that would depend on other views and moralities. Still, it wasn't motivating his purges, which is a step up on religious dogmas.

Quote"Motivational dogma", as you put it, can cut either way.  It depends on what the motivation is.  Sure, it  can motivate people to destroy unbelievers and treat them as inhuman but it can also motivate people to help the poor and outlaw slavery.  And absence of "motivational dogma" also cuts both ways.  Sure, it won't motivate a person to destroy the unbelievers or treat them as inhuman, but it also won't motivate them to help the poor or outlaw slavery.

Or, given those examples, it can lead to the workhouse and runaway capitalism. (Protestant work ethic) or can lead to slavery (Curse of Ham, Dominionism).

Of course, without god people are more likely to turn to rational examinations of such things, which does seem to lead to perfectly functional moral codes and prohibitions against such behaviour.

QuoteLet's not pretend that humans haven't been treating each other horribly, long before formal religions and formal dogma was used to justify it.  What Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot show is that while people can use God as a justification for their inhumanity toward others, they have little difficulty finding or creating other justifications in the absence of any belief in God.  The abuse of religion to justify horrible things is not the problem.  It's simply a symptom of the real problem.

It isn't abuse of the religion though, its a function of the religion's 'programming'.

Quote from: GRIMNope, that would depend on other views and moralities. Still, it wasn't motivating his purges, which is a step up on religious dogmas.

Not sure I follow this, why is mass slaughter for materialist dogma better than mass slaughter for religious dogma?  From the perspective of the victims it all seems much of a muchness.

Dogma can be dangerous, I'm not sure it matters much whether that dogma is religious or otherwise.

Quote from: ZalmoxisTo the athiests I ask a similar question. If you reject God, if you believe God does not exist, then why do you care about arguing with those who do? It's not like anyone is likely to ever be swayed by your argument. The whole thing (from both sides) seems absolutely pointless to me.

Well the atheistic argument relies on evidence, so hope springs eternal that people will apply the same decision making criteria they do in every other area of their life to the question(?) of religion as well.

As to why.

Look at the US government, look at the mess in Africa, look at the continuing nonsense over abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage. Look at the Islamic situation, the tibetan situation, Northern Ireland (still) even.

If these illogical beliefs were entirely personal then there wouldn't be a need, but these people want to change the world for everyone based on their illogical nonsense.

So GRIM, is your firm belief that it's a mistake to hold firm beliefs?

Sounds like a dogma to me

Quote from: GRIMIt isn't abuse of the religion though, its a function of the religion's 'programming'.

I think that's simply wrong.

The Albigensian crusade was justified as a war of the faithful upon heretics, however at the time it was widely perceived as a land and property grab by Northern nobles against Southern.  Correctly perceived as it happens.  The justification was religious, but the motivation was fiscal.

The Salem witch trials were in large part inspired by religious hysteria, but analyses of property ownership before and afterwards has indicated that the accusers often ended up getting property previously held by the accused.  Again, fiscal motivations were present, though here not the primary cause.

The conquest of the New World was motivated primarily by the desire for gold, read the pitch documents of the time promoting the conquest, religion was merely used as a justification.

The fact that people say they are doing something for god does not make it so, people lie, sometimes even to themselves.

As someone once said, the love of money is the root of all evil, including by and large religious evil.  Justifications and motivations can and often are very different things.

Quote from: SettembriniYou´d never have such a discussion like this in a German forum.

Until now, I'd never had this discussion on an American Forum. I think you're allowing your own views to bias the discussion. While I would agree it is an issue in some parts of my nation, I wouldn't say the problem is the same as our news media makes it out to be.

As usual, the country portrayed by the news media and the country as it really exists are two separate, and often unequal things.

Quote from: BalbinusNot sure I follow this, why is mass slaughter for materialist dogma better than mass slaughter for religious dogma?  From the perspective of the victims it all seems much of a muchness.

Dogma can be dangerous, I'm not sure it matters much whether that dogma is religious or otherwise.

It doesn't.
Religion tends to do it more 'efficiciently' though.
What I'm arguing against is this idea that 'atheism' somehow motivated Stalin, or Hitler or Pol Pot or any of the other's purges.

That's nonsense.

Quote from: GRIMWell the atheistic argument relies on evidence, so hope springs eternal that people will apply the same decision making criteria they do in every other area of their life to the question(?) of religion as well.

As to why.

Look at the US government, look at the mess in Africa, look at the continuing nonsense over abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage. Look at the Islamic situation, the tibetan situation, Northern Ireland (still) even.

If these illogical beliefs were entirely personal then there wouldn't be a need, but these people want to change the world for everyone based on their illogical nonsense.

Yeah, sure, but look at Stalin, look at Hitler, look at Rwanda or Yugoslavia (and that was not primarily a religious conflict, it was ethnic).

Tibet has bugger all to do with religion.  As for Northern Ireland, it's tribalism, neither faith advocates the slaughter of the other, the fighting is simultaneously about faith and in contradiction of it.

People kill each other.  Reasons vary.  Take away one reason and we'll just find others.

Quote from: GRIMIt doesn't.
Religion tends to do it more 'efficiciently' though.
What I'm arguing against is this idea that 'atheism' somehow motivated Stalin, or Hitler or Pol Pot or any of the other's purges.

That's nonsense.

I'm not persuaded religion is better at it.  Obviously atheism didn't cause Pol Pot or whatever, but dogma did.  Whether that dogma is religious or materialist makes little odds.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonSo GRIM, is your firm belief that it's a mistake to hold firm beliefs?

Sounds like a dogma to me

Its my firm belief that its a mistake to hold unevidenced and unverifiable beliefs I believe there to be sufficient proof of that.

Quote from: JimBobOzHe's largely resonsible for turning that one into a 500+ post thread, or close enough...

Simply because I reply to what other people have said?  Because I reply to their questions and challenges to my arguments, and in turn question and challenge them?

Anyhow, I don't recall forcing you to take part in that thread.  If you don't like it, ignore it.  It's not hard to do!
 

Quote from: JimBobOz... plus posting similarly annoying stuff in other threads.
...

Like where?

Quote from: JimBobOz.... He's not there to respond to what people have said, but has a few things he wants to talk about ...
...

False.

Check out my most recent reply to you in the 'other thread':
 http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=76747&postcount=496

You will note that I responded to your points without even mentioning the gratuitous attacks that you made towards me in your post.

Quote from: JimBobOzAnd we've barely seen him in the roleplaying section.
...

Bullshit

I had over 400 posts, almost entirely in the 'roleplaying section' before that 'atheism' thread started almost 2 months ago.  I continue to post in the RPG section regularly (see the Wilderlands threads, the threads that I've started on Rolemaster, Elizabethan sourcebooks, etc.).

Just because you don't read the RPG threads that I participate in doesn't mean that I'm 'not active' in the RPG section.

Quote from: JimBobOzThat's why he gets shit here...

You know what man, you're the only regular poster who has 'given me shit' more than once here.  Seriously.  

If you find me so annoying, why do you keep replying to my posts, taking part in my threads, etc.?  Why don't you just put me on your ignore list and put yourself out of my misery?

Look, despite some of our past run-ins JimBob, I've actually always thought that you were basically a decent, albeit prickly, guy.

Now I see that I was mistaken.  You're a rude jerk.  I can understand why Calithena has you on his ignore list.

Quote from: BalbinusI'm not persuaded religion is better at it.  Obviously atheism didn't cause Pol Pot or whatever, but dogma did.  Whether that dogma is religious or materialist makes little odds.

To me either. but historically, and in the present time, religion seems to me to be a more clear and present danger to that which I hold dear. Plus we're arguing religion in this thread

Quote from: GRIMIf I haven't been clear before I'm against ALL faith, not just religious faith. The pernicious unreason and inability to process data that is also present in most political ideologies and nationalism.

I think it is impossible to live without faith.  I've yet to meet an atheist who doesn't hit a "just because" moment.

Quote from: GRIMNope, that would depend on other views and moralities. Still, it wasn't motivating his purges, which is a step up on religious dogmas.

Only if you assume that religious dogmas only motivate bad things and not good things.  

Quote from: GRIMOr, given those examples, it can lead to the workhouse and runaway capitalism. (Protestant work ethic) or can lead to slavery (Curse of Ham, Dominionism).

Yes, you can keep selecting the bad and I can keep selecting the good and neither changes the fact that you can get bad and good from religious dogma.

Quote from: GRIMOf course, without god people are more likely to turn to rational examinations of such things, which does seem to lead to perfectly functional moral codes and prohibitions against such behaviour.

Given that we've never had a perfectly dogma-free society without a religious heritage present in the culture, we don't really know.  I do, however, know that nations who have gone out of their way to try to suppress religion have a pretty good track record of stepping all over individual rights.

Quote from: GRIMIt isn't abuse of the religion though, its a function of the religion's 'programming'.

Not really.  Plenty of the abuses you are talking about directly contradict principles of various religions.  There is a reason why so many modern totalitarian governments consider Christianity to a problem rather than a tool they can use.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineAkrasia's pretty reasonable. He's certainly very forceful in his arguments, and he refuses to let folks get away with what he thinks are shoddy arguments, but neither of those are particularly dependent on his being an atheist (though obviously, they are part of the ground of his choice to become an atheist). He's not proselytising except in the loosest sense of the word.

Thanks man!

Of course you realise that, in posting this, you're expressing a view dangerously contrary to the 'RPGsite consensus' (as declaimed by JimBobOz).

Quote from: John MorrowNot really.  Plenty of the abuses you are talking about directly contradict principles of various religions.  There is a reason why so many modern totalitarian governments consider Christianity to a problem rather than a tool they can use.

Even the good is motivated by the bad.
Charitable works motivated by the opportunity to witness, to imprint and spread the meme to others.
Sure, most religions seem fluffy if you're very, very selective, but even John Lennon, new testament Jesus talked about swords and dividing people.
A religion that doesn't imprint new victims gets out evolved in 'mindspace'.

The reason totalitarian government regard it as a problem is that its a rival and it has people deferring to a different higher authority than them.