Blimey, this has blown up a bit since i last looked.

Some people believe and some don't. Deal with it.

In response to the title of this thread though, why are religious people so anti-atheist? They're still going to heaven right?

Much like the success of D20, the success of the Bible is because of the quality of the system. :mischief:

Yep the thread title is very militant. I would respond to this question if asked in person "Why do theist oppose freedom?"

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI'm not correcting anyone, I'm suggesting that people moderate the tone of their posts... and yet you felt compelled to throw the words "bigot" and "zealot" at me.

That sounds like A) you're full of shit when you say you're limiting yourself to people who want to correct others and B) you're contributing exactly to the phenomenon that I'm talking about.

So please... moderate your tone.

Hey, asshat - I didn't use the words "bigot and zealot" as an original production - I was paraphrasing someone ELSE who said you were - so sling your outrageous arrows at the right people.

Quote from: Calithena"Darwinists" is a singularly poor choice for the group of people you mean, WK.

I didn't SAY they were "Darwinists" - I said the concept of being very good at acquiring what you want and keeping what you get with no regard to others is very "Darwinian" - there's a difference.

I think folks need to be a bit more precise about who they're attributing what to around here.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe focus of secularism is rather to remove religious privilege and have religion treated, at the political level, as just another belief system with no added benefits, special treatment or political powers.

I learned the other day that any private school in Australia that has a church on its land does not have to pay land tax.

Quote from: CalithenaHinterwelt, I don't really think of myself as 'spritual' either. When I think of spiritual-but-not-religious people I think of some pagans, unitarians, yogis, who are alive to the spiritual dimension of the world, celebrate it and accept it, but don't necessarily connect it to any unified theology or conception of a higher power.

I'm alive to the spiritual dimension of the world as well, but I'm deeply suspicious of it, and it gives me a sort of vertigo bordering on nausea, but I can't shake it completely no matter how much I drink. And can't really honestly say that I want to, even though it terrifies me. I definitely don't know what any of it means, but I'm profoundly not at home in the cosmos. Kafka's "Castle" seems a pretty good portrayal of my religious sensibility, so long as you take it as a serious portrayal of religious life and not just as a parody.

Thanks Calithena, that clarifies things a bit. Just so you now, I do not view the word "spiritual" the way you have defined it. I meant, almost precisesly, the way you describe your beliefs. Essentially, whatever the specific belief, you hold them deep within yourself. Hmm, not expressing it anybetter than you have already.

Thanks again for your insight.

Bill

Quote from: PseudoephedrineMr. Analytical> You may be surprised to learn that as a particular person, your experience and attitudes are not typical of other persons in the world. I too am an atheist, and I have little to no interest in proselytising unless drawn into an argument, but we are neither aberrant nor typical in this regard. Many people who are atheists do choose to proselytise. They are the persons being dealt with in this thread.

People like this are a good example....

http://www.amazon.com/End-Faith-Religion-Terror-Future/dp/0393035158

I think maybe we've devoted plenty of digital space to this man elsewhere around here, have we not?

Why yes - yes we have.

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3503

He was just "shooting down many of the silly objections that religious people (especially in the U.S.) level against atheism and atheists" - while writing a book declaring religion to be something that needs to be stamped out.

Haha. Silly religious people! See, Atheists aren't ALL out to get you! Only one's publishing best-sellers and being discussed seriously on RPG sites.

Please note: Yes, of course, we KNOW not ALL Atheists are like Mr. Harris. Its only the very small, vocal minority that feels the way he does. As usual, these rants are not directed at the vast majority of peace-loving Atheists who have no desire to press their views upon those who believe in a Magic Deer.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalFirstly, it's rather fitting that you should take issue with that particular statement as I wrote it with you in mind as you seemingly have no problem talking in broad generalisations about atheists...

You mean like clarifying that this discussion is about some atheists instead of misinterpreting it to pertain to all atheists as you suggest?  It's fitting that you now contend the exact opposite of what each of us has already clearly posted?  You call for "moderation" in language and you see this as fitting?  What the fuck are you on about, man?

!i!

Quote from: PseudoephedrineMr. Analytical> You may be surprised to learn that as a particular person, your experience and attitudes are not typical of other persons in the world. I too am an atheist, and I have little to no interest in proselytising unless drawn into an argument, but we are neither aberrant nor typical in this regard. Many people who are atheists do choose to proselytise. They are the persons being dealt with in this thread.

Word, dawg.  It's perfectly possible to disagree on one's belief structure, without being a raging asshat to everyone who doesn't agree with it.  You and I disagree I suspect quite strongly in our belief strustures, and yet somehow, I've never found reason to call you a bigot or an idiot, because you aren't one.  

Mr. A and GRIM however are, and mistake being called on their behavior, for being called on their belief structures.  

Quote from: CalithenaI'm alive to the spiritual dimension of the world as well, but I'm deeply suspicious of it, and it gives me a sort of vertigo bordering on nausea, but I can't shake it completely no matter how much I drink. And can't really honestly say that I want to, even though it terrifies me. I definitely don't know what any of it means, but I'm profoundly not at home in the cosmos.

Yanno, I feel very much the same way.  I have experienced some things in my life that have made it abundantly clear to me that there is something going on here behind the curtain of everday life, and it scares the living shit out of me.

The presently lapsed state of my religious practice has, unfortunately, more to do with a profound terror of the supernatural than a shaking of belief.

Quote from: One Horse TownBlimey, this has blown up a bit since i last looked.

Some people believe and some don't. Deal with it.

In response to the title of this thread though, why are religious people so anti-atheist? They're still going to heaven right?

As I stated before, I thought of starting a thread about people of faith witnessing to atheists but it seemed self evident and already answered...there mandates (for the most part) tell them too. Atheists, as have been pointed out, do not have a uniform scripture. And, to reference my original post, I was nto saying all atheists are proselytizers, and I was hoping to see why some feel they should. I view a person's spiritual beliefs as very private. And while two atheists I know share this view, I know several who feel the need to convince you of their belief structure. I was wondering if atheists here have the same view and what their reasons were. As an extension, I also was interested in other non-atheist's experiences likewise.

However, to quote Spike, it seems he was correct.

QuoteI forsee this ending badly. We've got too many people with too many philosophy degrees and not enough to do for it to go any other way.

Bill

Quote from: JimBobOz... the consensus is that the atheists talking a lot about religion on therpgsite are zealots and bigots. That means you, Akrasia, GrimGent, etc...

Gee thanks for calling me a bigot.  How helpful.  And nice to see that you somehow speak on behalf of the 'RPGsite consensus'.  :rolleyes:

I'm an atheist and I think that I have good rational grounds for being an atheist.  All I've done here is try to explain and defend those grounds (mainly against people who claim that atheism involves 'faith', a claim that I think is manifestly false).  

I've generally tried to respond to your own arguments and claims in the 'other thread' in a reasonable manner.

I've never said that people should be forced to abandon their religious beliefs and practices (despite your wild accusations of 'totalitarianism', etc.).  Naturally, as an atheist, I think those beliefs are false, but I hardly see how that makes me a 'zealot' or a 'bigot'.  After all, any religious person thinks that people who don't hold his/her religious beliefs are incorrect as well.

It seems that your definition of a 'zealot and a bigot' is simply someone who disagrees with you.
:shrug:

Thanks Hinterwelt for your cool questions as a follow-up. I was going to say some things about my issues (con and pro) with churches etc. but I think I've done enough soul-baring for one day. I think I need to go find some people and convince them that old-school D&D is better than their favorite game now instead.

Quote from: CalithenaThanks Hinterwelt for your cool questions as a follow-up. I was going to say some things about my issues (con and pro) with churches etc. but I think I've done enough soul-baring for one day. I think I need to go find some people and convince them that old-school D&D is better than their favorite game now instead.

I may just join you.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt... I view a person's spiritual beliefs as very private. And while two atheists I know share this view, I know several who feel the need to convince you of their belief structure...

I don't know what you mean by 'spiritual beliefs' and 'very private'.  

Atheists don't have 'spiritual beliefs' so the claim doesn't even make sense with respect to them.  In any case, most religious people will say, if asked, 'I'm a Muslim/Christian/Buddhist/whatever'.  Some of them will try to proselytize, and some won't.  But belonging to those religions involve endorsing a particular set of beliefs and values.   That's pretty public.  

Atheists don't hold 'spiritual beliefs' and think that good reasons exist for rejecting the supernatural conception of 'God' posited by extant religions (and supernatural beliefs more generally, so even religions that don't have an anthropomorphic conception of God, like Buddhism, are out).

Some are vocal in expressing their views, others aren't.  In my case, I generally 'get vocal' when I encounter someone asserting something false about atheism.  I don't view that as 'proselytizing'.  If others do, I can't help that.

Quote from: Calithena... There are no good arguments for the existence of God....  

Among people who practice intellectual hygeine, in the current historical situation, the atheist has God on his side. Maybe the best arguments aren't completely 100% until the end of time decisive, but they're way stronger on his side of the argument.

None of this prevents us from acknowledging the historical contributions or failings of members of various religions...

Exactly.  :cool:
 
And yet, according to many people who frequent this forum, for an atheist to point this out in discussion is proselytizing.
:rolleyes: