Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalAkrasia and Grim, I appreciate you defending our honour but there really is no point.

For a while this topic was bottled up in the Kafka-esque nightmare of bullshit that is the 10 myths about atheism thread.  Then we got the religion thread and the particularly nasty piece of trolling that is this thread.

This is a forum on which american christians call atheists zealots and bigots without a trace of irony.  Note the use of identity politics language... identity politics that largely sprung up in response to the white christian concensus in US politics.

I really suggest that you leave them to their backslapping.

WTF is your damage man. Do you think I am a Christian? A troll? A Christian Troll?

Man, you need help. You should seek it. Really. Persecution complexes are not healthy.

Bill

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThis is a forum on which american christians call atheists zealots and bigots without a trace of irony.  Note the use of identity politics language... identity politics that largely sprung up in response to the white christian concensus in US politics.

But I'm also calling you guys zealots and bigots, as well as a little bit loopy.

I didn't know I was an American Christian. I thought I was a Australian Jew.

So when you tell me I'm delusional and GRIM tells me I "enable" genocide, that's only because I want to feel a sense of identity with American fundamentalist Christians.

...

Wow, the shit you learn on t3h intarweb!

Quote from: CalithenaI don't know how to describe my own attitude towards religion. I can't quite call myself an atheist, or even an agnostic, but on the other hand I certainly don't qualify as a 'person of faith'.

That said, I have sympathy with militant atheists. Religious talk makes no fucking sense at all. It's like

Santa Claus...psych!

Easter Bunny...psych!

Tooth Fairy...psych!

God...oh, come on...haven't you gotten the fucking hint by now?

The reason I'm not an atheist, if I'm not, is just that I've had a lot of uplifting experiences of a certain kind, experiences of the beauty of the world and something that I'd nonsensically describe as 'the infinite worth of my fellow human beings', that I connect with a certain kind of religious sensibility, and I find in certain traces of religious language a connection to something so wondrous I can't quite bring myself to deny it, even if I also couldn't affirm it, and even if I certainly have no idea at all what it all means.

But it's quite likely that my attitudes here are a product of a sensitive psychology, childhood brainwashing, and maybe too many controlled substances, the combined effects of which I'm ultimately too weak-minded to throw off. I guess I hope that's not true, but I've got nothing to convince an atheist otherwise, and really nothing to convince myself either...I just can't quite let go of this dreamy I-know-not-what full of love and hope and beauty at the center of my mind. I don't feel good about having to admit that, but that's where I'm at.

Interesting position. Do you feel pressured to join an "established" church? Do you feel the need to convince people of your beliefs?

Would you describe yourself as having a "spiritual" view of the world? I am not saying necessarily believeing in a god so much as viewing that "greater than yourself" universal something you mention in your post as a universal presence. I am just interested in your views since you seem to be expressing an agnostic view but without acknowledging religions.

Thanks for your post. It is just the kind of thing I was shooting for with the original post.

Bill

Quote from: JimBobOzSo when you tell me I'm delusional and GRIM tells me I "enable" genocide, that's only because I want to feel a sense of identity with American fundamentalist Christians.

We're winning!

Oh wait, I'm not a fundamentalist anything, nor a Christian anything. Crap!

THEY'RE WINNING!!!!

I don't feel in the least bit persecuted.  I think religion has too much power in my society but I'm not persecuted.  I'm not gay for example.  If I were gay I'd feel persecuted and be absolutely right to feel that way... even in this country.

What I object to is the consensus on here, demonstrated nicely above that atheists are essentially a variant of the "fundamentalist zealot" template whereby we all go around proselytising and have beliefs and are bigots.  I object to that consensus and I object to the tone of the remarks on here.

The fact that people object to all theists being lumped together in a thread that is not only entitled "why are atheists so anti-religious" but also seems to conclude it's because we all want to feel supperior is frankly beyond belief... it really is.

My "damage" is that frankly I don't like the concensus that has emerged on here about the nature of atheism and I don't like adherrents of that consensus using language that you'd normally find coming out of the mouth of one of the people who are daily mistreated as a result of the attitudes of the christian majority in the US.

Frankly, the only place I've seen similar use of identity politics to defend a group with such entrenched and wide-reaching power is THIS place.  While the self-delusion and political naievete on display here isn't quite at the levels of stormfront you seriously are heading in that direction.


I don't have a problem with people engaging in this kind of pointless and fruitless discussion that never changes any minds but I really could do without the victim rhetoric.

Quote from: GabrielBut, if your beliefs restrict my rights as a human being, then not only are you irrational, but you're fucking dangerous.

The Founders of the United States claimed, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."  First, do you believe that all humans are equal and, if so, on what grounds (in what way are they equal)?  Second, from where are your "unalienable Rights" endowed?  Why do you claim that you have rights as a human being?  What are they?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalFor a while this topic was bottled up in the Kafka-esque nightmare of bullshit that is the 10 myths about atheism thread.  Then we got the religion thread and the particularly nasty piece of trolling that is this thread.

Well, shit.  Here I was going on about "reaction formations" to perceived fanaticism and someone steps up to the plate with a live example.

!i!

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe fact that people object to all theists being lumped together in a thread that is not only entitled "why are atheists so anti-religious" but also seems to conclude it's because we all want to feel supperior is frankly beyond belief... it really is.

No, you're clearly not feeling persecuted.  Nor engaging in identity politics.  Nor victim rhetoric.  You're reading all this clearly and objectively, without mis-step, and arriving at logical conclusions.

Whatever, man.

!i!

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhat I object to is the consensus on here, demonstrated nicely above that atheists are essentially a variant of the "fundamentalist zealot" template whereby we all go around proselytising and have beliefs and are bigots.  I object to that consensus and I object to the tone of the remarks on here.

For a guy calling himself "Mr. Analytical", your reading comprehension skills are rather poor. The consensus is not that atheists are zealots and bigots - some say they are, some don't - rather, the consensus is that the atheists talking a lot about religion on therpgsite are zealots and bigots. That means you, Akrasia, GrimGent, etc.

There is argument about the qualities of atheists in general; there is little argument about the qualities of the atheists who are enthusiastic about discussing religion here. i.e., you.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThis is a forum on which american christians call atheists zealots and bigots without a trace of irony.  Note the use of identity politics language... identity politics that largely sprung up in response to the white christian concensus in US politics.

Let me ask you something out of curiosity.  If white American Christians have a pretty good deal going, why shouldn't they do everything they can in their power to maintain their advantage, privilege, and position in society at the expense of others outside of their group?  What's in it for them to help atheists and minorities?

Don't you see - they CAN'T be bigots or zealots because THEY'RE RIGHT. Its the religionists who are the benighted and mislead and need to have their views corrected.

I'll say it again - I'm an agnostic, but I do realise the contributions of religion to our Civilization, and feel that NO MATTER THE SOURCE of some of our laws and such, they're generally good rules to live by.

Also, to those living overseas who think they "know" what Christianity (mainline at least) is in the US, shut up. Your views come from movies like "Jesus Camp" and "unbiased" news reports about how gays are being rounded up an interred and how Bush is some far-right wacko (as I've said before, he's a frickin' METHODIST! The only thing seperating his denomination from Athiests is that he has to get up for church on Sunday morning) and horror stories about Tinky Winky and such. America is NOT like that any more than all Brits are gap-toothed football yobbos. Its just political or cultural "shorthand" for those unwilling or unable to do the research to find out the truth.

There are lots of Atheists that Don't make a big noise about it.

 There are lots of Christians who don't make a big fuss about it all.

There are lots of Jews who don't make a deal about it.

There Muslins that don't make a big fuss about it.

 These above groups are mostly average everyday people. Sometimes people from  one of the above group can be friends with someone in the other groups - and the topic of Religion never come up.
 If it does come up ..its more along the lines of : "Oh you have to go to a  church (Or temple, Synagogue , Mosque) function   that night? Then I guess we re-schedule that game for a different time ...How does next Tuesday work for you?"

 I used to be an atheist. For close to 10 years I was. I was never a "pain in the Ass" about it with friends of mine that had beliefs or were faithful.

Its just a matter of simple manners.
Hell's Bells!... you might even find somebody game with or even date if you don't get too hung up about these things.

- E.W.C.

Quote from: John MorrowLet me ask you something out of curiosity.  If white American Christians have a pretty good deal going, why shouldn't they do everything they can in their power to maintain their advantage, privilege, and position in society at the expense of others outside of their group?  What's in it for them to help atheists and minorities?

Yup, sounds very Darwinian to me - survival of the fittest. Too bad they have to go and do all those charitable works and spend billions in private funds every year to screw up a perfectly good argument.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNo, you're clearly not feeling persecuted.  Nor engaging in identity politics.  Nor victim rhetoric.  You're reading all this clearly and objectively and arriving at logical conclusions.

  Firstly, it's rather fitting that you should take issue with that particular statement as I wrote it with you in mind as you seemingly have no problem talking in broad generalisations about atheists whilst whining about theists being lumped together.

  Secondly, as I said, I don't feel persecuted.  I know what persecution is and I'm not a victim of it.  That doesn't mean that there's not unacceptable shit going on and the tone of "these atheists are basically just religious fundementalists" that permeates these discussions is clearly unacceptable.  It's low level passive aggressive hostility.

  Thirdly, atheists have been and continue to be a persecuted minority in the US and from the point of view of the planet as a whole, I am a member of a minority.  Any theist that uses identity politics to put down or make the kind of generalisations I've seen on this forum about atheists is, frankly, beyond the pale.  It's on a par with white guys who moan about political correctness gone mad or talk about feminazis.

  I have no problem with people engaging in these discussions, but I do object to the tone in which they are conducted.  Your response to my post is another example of this... you characterise me as someone who is claiming to be persecuted thereby pushing me into the realms of conspiracy theorists and other extreme nutjobs.

  This is a forum on which we, supposedly, speak our minds and I'm aware I'm from a more secular culture than a lot of you lot are from but I'm saying, as an atheist I feel uncomfortable and if you were to change the tone of what you say I would feel less uncomfortable.

  I mean, it's quite possible that Bill wasn't looking to troll when he started this thread but it looks to me like a rally for this board's consensus... namely that atheists are extremists.  That's what I felt the original post was clearly about and, surprise surprise, I find a lot of people patting each other on the back about how right they are that atheists are proselytising inadequates.

  I post on a number of forums where religion gets discussed and I know I used to argue religion back on RPGnet but on none of these forums is there the kind of low-level simmering antipathy that I feel right now on this forum.

  So, I'm calling people on it.  If we can cut out the clearly inflammatory language then maybe we can move forward.  Hell, I don't even believe that most of you are that hostile to atheism... but the language says otherwise.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI post on a number of forums where religion gets discussed and I know I used to argue religion back on RPGnet but on none of these forums is there the kind of low-level simmering antipathy that I feel right now on this forum.

I'm pretty sure it's not low-level simmering.