Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Replace it with boobs and gaming.

Or a nice tight butt if that's your thang.

So:

huh? I meant if you wanted to get rid of religion you would have to change what boobs and gaming are.


That just seems wrong man!

Bill

Don't you ever change boobs and gaming! Unless you're making them more universally to my liking.

Quote from: James McMurrayDon't you ever change boobs and gaming! Unless you're making them more universally to my liking.

Well, many gamers would like to figure out a way to bring the two together.  And I ain't talkin' man-boobs.

That's what getting married is for.

Quote from: James McMurrayThat's what getting married is for.

  I hate to break it to you bub but you don't need to be married to have access to boobs and gaming.

When did I say you did? I said the purpose of marriage is boobs and gaming, not that the only source of boobs and gaming is marriage.

Quote from: James McMurrayAtheists proselytize for the same reasons that theists do, ranging from a need to belong, a need to feel superior, a need to "help others see the truth," a belief that "he can't really be happy if he believes that," or any of a thousand other possible desires, practically none of which is a good enough excuse.

I'm a bit late to the game, but I'll echo Zachary's vote.  I think you've pretty much nailed it, and what you wrote has been about the only way I've been able to get certain vehement atheists to shut the fuck up.

The only thing that I might add is that it may also be a sort of reaction formation.  When faced with perceived fanaticism on one front, people sometimes assume an opposing fanaticism, not so much out of intellectual or philosophical conviction, but out of emotional need or defensive posturing.  We have a text book case of this running about here on these fora.

!i!

Quote from: HinterWelt... They are wrong and need to be shown the truth.
My reply is that they aren't wrong, they just believe differently than you...

Quote from: HinterWelt... Sigh. Yes, i did not use a fully qualified statement. Religious beliefs...

Quibble: this makes no sense.  If the proposition "astrology is bunk" is true, and someone else believes in astrology, then they are wrong.  Of course you might not care that they're wrong.  But they're still wrong.  It doesn't matter if the proposition in question concerns a religious belief or not.

Anyhow ...

I don't care about 'converting' other people to atheism.  However, I do care about  the widespread anti-atheist prejudice that exists in the U.S. – look here to see what I mean: http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=26611 .

What gets me involved in arguments with people over atheism is when they make some false claim about what atheism involves.  I feel a natural desire to point out that their mistake.  And then an argument gets going (well, sometimes).

QuoteAtheists proselytize for the same reasons that theists do, ranging from a need to belong, a need to feel superior, a need to "help others see the truth," a belief that "he can't really be happy if he believes that," or any of a thousand other possible desires, practically none of which is a good enough excuse.

I was going to leave this one but since people are popping up and agreeing with it, despite it being a crock of shit, I guess I'd better speak up.

Of the examples given...

If you want to belong, you knuckle under to the dominant view, that social pressure is how many religions/cults (same thing) perpetuate and pressure people.

A need to feel superior? No, I don't think so, after all there's no claim to absolute truth here, the scientific viewpoint is, after all, subject to change. One can certainly point to things like higher IQ, education level and lower crime and divorce rates amongst atheists as a group if one WANTS to feel superior though.

The happiness thing is an odd one, since happiness is considered a total irrelevence compared to truth in many arguments with theists. Some of us feel bad for people that they're wasting their one real life acting like its a waiting room for an eternal country club, but that's not quite the same thing.

I don't think the reasons are at all similar to the theist motivations which really boil down to 'Assimilate'.

Quote from: GRIMI was going to leave this one but since people are popping up and agreeing with it, despite it being a crock of shit, I guess I'd better speak up.

Of the examples given...

Well, focus on the real meat of the statement: "...or any of a thousand other possible desires, practically none of which is a good enough excuse."  Do you disagree with that part?  Do you disagree with my contention that it's sometimes a reaction formation?

The question James addresses isn't "Why do people become atheists?"  It's "Why do (some) atheists become so anti-religious?"*

!i!

(*I added "some" myself in the hope of clarifying the question in the thread title.)

(P.S. I think your remark about theists wanting to assimilate is way off if you're referring to all theists, or even most.)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWell, focus on the real meat of the statement: "...or any of a thousand other possible desires, practically none of which is a good enough excuse."  Do you disagree with that part?  Do you disagree with my contention that it's sometimes a reaction formation?

(*I added "some" myself in the hope of clarifying the question in the thread title.)

(P.S. I think your remark about theists wanting to assimilate is way off if you're referring to all theists, or even most.)

Some are less evangelical than others but if they weren't about assimilation and continuance in some fashion they wouldn't perpetuate. Certainly the more successful religions are more aggressive and its written right into their 'memetic code'.

I think the why anti-religious argument has been pretty well answered, why become atheist is different for everyone but this was 'why evangelise it'.

I don't see what I do as being evangelical, rather I criticise and draw attention to the flaws in supernaturalist thinking. I don't generally go into the positives of my beliefs (beliefs, not faiths) unless somebody asks.

I agree that sometimes it is simply a counter-reaction to theist propagandising, but I don't agree that there's 'never a good enough excuse'. When people are propagating - successfully! - supernaturalist ideas, often dangerous ones, you're remiss in not countering that both for their sake and the sake of society as a whole. I think that's a very good, concrete and actual reason, compared to, say, oh 'I'm worried about your immortal soul'.

Akrasia and Grim, I appreciate you defending our honour but there really is no point.

For a while this topic was bottled up in the Kafka-esque nightmare of bullshit that is the 10 myths about atheism thread.  Then we got the religion thread and the particularly nasty piece of trolling that is this thread.

This is a forum on which american christians call atheists zealots and bigots without a trace of irony.  Note the use of identity politics language... identity politics that largely sprung up in response to the white christian concensus in US politics.

I really suggest that you leave them to their backslapping.

QuoteIf you want to belong, you knuckle under to the dominant view, that social pressure is how many religions/cults (same thing) perpetuate and pressure people.

Not if you want to belong to a counter culture, or belong and be rebellious, or any of a large number of other reasons someone might want to belong but not want to be Christian (or Muslim, or whatever).

QuoteA need to feel superior? No, I don't think so, after all there's no claim to absolute truth here, the scientific viewpoint is, after all, subject to change. One can certainly point to things like higher IQ, education level and lower crime and divorce rates amongst atheists as a group if one WANTS to feel superior though.

Are you claiming that there are no atheists that like to point out their superior intellect by bashing religions?

QuoteThe happiness thing is an odd one, since happiness is considered a total irrelevence compared to truth in many arguments with theists. Some of us feel bad for people that they're wasting their one real life acting like its a waiting room for an eternal country club, but that's not quite the same thing.

Wow, good thing I didn't say "this is an immutable and final list from which you must pick your reasons for proselytizing."

Quotebut I don't agree that there's 'never a good enough excuse'.

Then I guess it's a good thing I didn't say "there's never a good excuse."

Did you read what I said, or just look at it in little chunks of 5 words or less and get pissed off?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalAkrasia and Grim, I appreciate you defending our honour but there really is no point.

For a while this topic was bottled up in the Kafka-esque nightmare of bullshit that is the 10 myths about atheism thread.  Then we got the religion thread and the particularly nasty piece of trolling that is this thread.

This is a forum on which american christians call atheists zealots and bigots without a trace of irony.  Note the use of identity politics language... identity politics that largely sprung up in response to the white christian concensus in US politics.

I really suggest that you leave them to their backslapping.

Are you saying I'm a white American Christian backslapper? Or is there room in your ideas about what this thread is for people to actually discuss things?

I don't know how to describe my own attitude towards religion. I can't quite call myself an atheist, or even an agnostic, but on the other hand I certainly don't qualify as a 'person of faith'.

That said, I have sympathy with militant atheists. Religious talk makes no fucking sense at all. It's like

Santa Claus...psych!

Easter Bunny...psych!

Tooth Fairy...psych!

God...oh, come on...haven't you gotten the fucking hint by now?

The reason I'm not an atheist, if I'm not, is just that I've had a lot of uplifting experiences of a certain kind, experiences of the beauty of the world and something that I'd nonsensically describe as 'the infinite worth of my fellow human beings', that I connect with a certain kind of religious sensibility, and I find in certain traces of religious language a connection to something so wondrous I can't quite bring myself to deny it, even if I also couldn't affirm it, and even if I certainly have no idea at all what it all means.

But it's quite likely that my attitudes here are a product of a sensitive psychology, childhood brainwashing, and maybe too many controlled substances, the combined effects of which I'm ultimately too weak-minded to throw off. I guess I hope that's not true, but I've got nothing to convince an atheist otherwise, and really nothing to convince myself either...I just can't quite let go of this dreamy I-know-not-what full of love and hope and beauty at the center of my mind. I don't feel good about having to admit that, but that's where I'm at.