Quote from: RPGPunditSkach: You obviously haven't been actually paying enough attention to the things Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, etc are saying to their true believers (and remember, each of these guys represent a multi-million dollar organization with millions of supporters, in some cases bigger than many famous corporations), and occasionally even saying when not among the "faithful".

You should try reading, just for starters, Chris Hedge's book, American Fascists. The guy is hardly a "left-wing hack" or something like that, he's a respected foreign correspondent, a devout presbyterian and a graduate of Harvard Divinity School. This is a real christian responding to the hijacking of his religion, and the attempted hijacking of his country.

See, I don't pay as much attention to them for a reason - they just don't have that much power.  I know you think they do.  I know some people think they do - whether hard-core secularists who think any whiff of religion leads directly to fascism do not pass go do not collect $200, or people who (rightly) believe their religion is being hijacked by some nut ball.  But it's not my religion and I don't think religion is automatically a bad thing.

Perhaps the last is the real culprit. There is a narrative out there that says anything to do with the federal government that is touched by religion - however slight or whether or not it has good effects - is tainted. The seemingly logical conclusion is a fear that America is headed for Religious Totalitarianism. But that's just not how this place works.  Odd, but true.

But I will take your suggestion and see if I can get my hands on a copy of Hedge's book.

But let me just make this a numbers game.  How many blinded-by-the-light followers of those three preachers are there? Let's say that that are 5M people who buy into the Religious Right vision as you claim it to be - religious oppression, oppression of gays, women, etc. How many of them vote? How many voters are there in the US?  What percentage of Republican voters is this? And that's a huge number to swallow - that there are 5M people who want the end of the world hurried up so they can meet jesus.

My point is that even if I were to agree with Hedge (that Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson are preaching crazy shit and people are lapping it up), I'm just not convinced that it matters in the grand scheme of American politics. It's a red herring. It's hyperbole to win elections. It's a distraction from serious issues like Justices, War, Taxes, etc.

The Religious Right's hatred for other religions is easily trumped by their desire to get millions of dollars from the federal government. At least since the time of Ralph Reed onwards, the Religious Right's strategy has always been to win each step in their effort by whatever means necessary, including going to bed with people they despise. They realized a long time ago that this was a winning way of doing things. So they don't like that the Scientologists get money too, shit, they'd illegalize Scientology if they could, but ever since the early 90s they've developed a powerful sense of priorities that lets them look the other way at all kinds of hypocrisies.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThe Religious Right's hatred for other religions is easily trumped by their desire to get millions of dollars from the federal government. At least since the time of Ralph Reed onwards, the Religious Right's strategy has always been to win each step in their effort by whatever means necessary, including going to bed with people they despise. They realized a long time ago that this was a winning way of doing things.

Yeah, it took them 40 years in the minority, losing to Democrats who got in bed with anyone to win.  What's the saying - politics makes strange bedfellows?

Quote from: RPGPunditSo they don't like that the Scientologists get money too, shit, they'd illegalize Scientology if they could, but ever since the early 90s they've developed a powerful sense of priorities that lets them look the other way at all kinds of hypocrisies.

This is the part I just don't get, Pundy.  Really. You've mentioned Hedge's book, and I'll certainly give it a look.  But are you really of the opinion that there's any significant, serious movement in the US that has as its philosophy the opression of other religions to the point of making them illegal? I just can't express how perplexing this is.

As an ultimate goal, yes. At the end of the day, the Religious right looks at these people, be they Hindus, atheists or even catholics, as part of a Satanic deception.

Pat Robertson has said as much, that non-christians should not be allowed to vote in the united states:

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'" --from Pat Robertson's "The New World Order," page 218.

"It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who have come into (our) institutions (today) are primarily termites. They are into destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation."--Pat Robertson, New York Magazine

A couple of other quotes:

"How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?"
-- Pat Robertson, The New World Order, p. 227

"There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore."
-Pat Robertson, address to his American Center for Law and Justice

We have enough votes to run the country. And when the people say, "We've had enough," we are going to take over.
-- Pat Robertson, speech given to the "Washington for Jesus" rally, quoted from Robert Boston, The Most Dangerous Man in America, p. 29

Individual Christians are the only ones really -- and Jewish people, those who trust God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- are the only ones that are qualified to have the reign, because hopefully, they will be governed by God and submit to Him.
-- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club television program, January 11, 1985, defending his stance that only Christians and Jews are fit to hold public office

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditAs an ultimate goal, yes. At the end of the day, the Religious right looks at these people, be they Hindus, atheists or even catholics, as part of a Satanic deception.

Pat Robertson has said as much, that non-christians should not be allowed to vote in the united states:

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'" --from Pat Robertson's "The New World Order," page 218.

"It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who have come into (our) institutions (today) are primarily termites. They are into destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation."--Pat Robertson, New York Magazine

A couple of other quotes:

"How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?"
-- Pat Robertson, The New World Order, p. 227

"There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore."
-Pat Robertson, address to his American Center for Law and Justice

We have enough votes to run the country. And when the people say, "We've had enough," we are going to take over.
-- Pat Robertson, speech given to the "Washington for Jesus" rally, quoted from Robert Boston, The Most Dangerous Man in America, p. 29

Individual Christians are the only ones really -- and Jewish people, those who trust God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- are the only ones that are qualified to have the reign, because hopefully, they will be governed by God and submit to Him.
-- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club television program, January 11, 1985, defending his stance that only Christians and Jews are fit to hold public office

I mean, besides the nutball angle - I actually don't see anything about only allowing Christians to vote.  He's saying that Christians (and maybe Jews) are the only ones qualified to rule.  That's a different, although similarly crazy, statement.

And let's just think about what it would take to get that viewpoint instantiated in the American government.  First, you'd have to tear up the Constitution as you can't constitutionally discriminate based on religion.  So you can't not hire an athiest.

Once that happens, all hell breaks lose and you'd have a war on your hands. Which is why it will never happen - because people are smart enough to see where it all would lead and there are more of us than those who believe as Pat does.  Which has been my point all along.

It's worth pointing out that the "Religious Right" is actually an ideologically-charged umbrella term for a variety of movements with disparate, and even irreconcilable goals. The effect of regular use of the term (both within the group and out) is to cover over these differences and present the entirety of conservative Christian movements and groups as a doctrinally, politically and socially unified group.

It's also worth pointing out that the "Right" in America is disintegrating (that is to say, the ideological origin of the term "Right" is becoming more apparent as it departs from accurately describing political groupings), and has been since early 2002. The libertarian, neoconservative, paleoconservative, and theoconservative groupings are each going their own way with their own publications, think tanks, and institutions. At least two groups (libertarians and the aforementioned "Religious Right", theoconservatives) are imploding even as this divergence is going on.

In both cases, attributing coherent positions to more than individuals or small groups is problematic. Things are falling apart.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou should try reading, just for starters, Chris Hedge's book, American Fascists.

Not that there's anything wrong with the book, but you might want to broaden your sources of information beyond controversy-driven infotainment. Bringing that book out is like bringing out an Ann Coulter book and holding it up as a symbol of truth.

Ahhh, Pat Robertson. Thank god for him, he does so much harm to the christian reich.

Remember that this guy has claimed to have ordered a hurricane to change course thru the power of god, and that anyone claiming to have had a close encounter of the third kind should be stoned to death.

May he live a long life, and help expose the lunacy of the far right every day of it.

Quote from: ZalmoxisNot that there's anything wrong with the book, but you might want to broaden your sources of information beyond controversy-driven infotainment. Bringing that book out is like bringing out an Ann Coulter book and holding it up as a symbol of truth.

First, its pretty absurd to compare a book written by a guy with Hedge's credentials, and the kind of work he put into it, with the likes of Ann Coulter.

The dude isn't exactly anti-christian, he's neither a michael moore nor a dan savage...

Second, you might have missed the fact that I've been studying these fuckers for years now (religious studies academic, remember?); one has to just look at the incredible shadow-economy they've created with their international "church planting" efforts to get an idea of their monumental level of corruption. I mentioned "American Fascists" because its recent, topical, and accessible, just in case if anyone on the other side of this really and sincerely wanted to bother to get a clue about what all the fuss was about, and weren't just demanding this kind of information for the sake of argument.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditFirst, its pretty absurd to compare a book written by a guy with Hedge's credentials, and the kind of work he put into it, with the likes of Ann Coulter.

The book is a steaming pile of shit meant to inflame people. In other words, it the same kind of pseudo-intellectual diatribe he accuses the "religious Right" of using.

QuoteThe dude isn't exactly anti-christian, he's neither a michael moore nor a dan savage...

No, but he has cashed his chips in on this supposed "Dominionism" danger, which puts him in the same category as the folks who yammer on about the Illuminati and Trilateral Commission and Area 51.

QuoteSecond, you might have missed the fact that I've been studying these fuckers for years now (religious studies academic, remember?);

No offense is intended to you, as I like you, but you are flat out clueless on the "religious Right". I spent 30 years in the American south. I grew up with "fundamentalist" Christians. I'd be happy to debate about the idiotic views of this group or that group inside the "religious Right", but if you are going to tell me they're a real danger, I'm afraid I'm just going to have to laugh at your ignorance.

Quoteone has to just look at the incredible shadow-economy they've created with their international "church planting" efforts to get an idea of their monumental level of corruption.

So the fact they use money to set up churches is a... danger? :raise:

Actually pundit is right about the religious right in america hating other religions, and other people in general.

A prominent catholic, who's name wasn't worth remembering but who has lead a lot of crusades against things he doesn't like, such as "the da vinci code" movie, openly refers to gays as "queers" in a derogatory tone.

As to religions hating each other, look at the chick tracks in which jews are shown as going to hell for being jews and catholicism is portrayed as evil and satanic.

My fucking god, with some of these nuts it's not enough to believe in jesus, you have to believe in him their way and by their trappings.

BTW, the religious right is mostly baptist, tho they will align with the "satanic, hell bound" catholics to do a gang bang on other groups.

When you have baptists saying that catholics are satanic and evil, that shows real religious intolerance.  They both believe in the same god, the same jesus, etc, but because of some fairly minor differences the baptists believe the catholics are satanic hereitcs doomed to everlasting hellfire.

Now that's intolerance, and I guess it fits that people so intolerant create intolerant gods in their image.

Quote from: RPGPunditPat Robertson has said as much, that non-christians should not be allowed to vote in the united states:

What? Are you willfully blind, trolling, or stupid? Read your own quotes and rethink your statement.

Quote from: Dominus NoxActually pundit is right about the religious right in america hating other religions, and other people in general.

A prominent catholic, who's name wasn't worth remembering but who has lead a lot of crusades against things he doesn't like, such as "the da vinci code" movie, openly refers to gays as "queers" in a derogatory tone.

As to religions hating each other, look at the chick tracks in which jews are shown as going to hell for being jews and catholicism is portrayed as evil and satanic.

My fucking god, with some of these nuts it's not enough to believe in jesus, you have to believe in him their way and by their trappings.

BTW, the religious right is mostly baptist, tho they will align with the "satanic, hell bound" catholics to do a gang bang on other groups.

When you have baptists saying that catholics are satannic and evil, that shows real religious intolerance.

Listen man... Jack Chick is on the far, FAR fringe... even among the people commonly referred to as the "religious Right". He's almost in Fred Phelps country. Many Pentacostals, Baptists and other evangelicals I have met ARE judgmental, and DO have some kooky ideas... but a danger? No way. Certainly not nearly as much of a danger as Pundit is saying.

Quote from: ZalmoxisListen man... Jack Chick is on the far, FAR fringe... even among the people commonly referred to as the "religious Right". He's almost in Fred Phelps country. Many Pentacostals, Baptists and other evangelicals I have met ARE judgmental, and DO have some kooky ideas... but a danger? No way. Certainly not nearly as much of a danger as Pundit is saying.

They've got a president in the oval office and plenty of crogressman, governors and such in office. That's dangerous, and some of us want to keep them from getting any more dangerous.

Quote from: Dominus NoxThey've got a president in the oval office and plenty of crogressman, governors and such in office. That's dangerous, and some of us want to keep them from getting any more dangerous.

How are they a danger? Because they are 1. Republican and 2. Christian?