Why are atheists so anti-religion?

Werekoala · March 08, 2007, 02:50:10 PM

Well-responded to, Mr. P! I know that originally, Methodisim was a strong evangelical faith and very conservative, but I guess my point is that in recent years its become far more liberal, as it were, and is generally looked down upon by the more "right-wing" sects. That's why it makes me :rolleyes: every time the Pundy makes out like Bush is a Pat Robertson clone. Yes, he's a religious man, but that does NOT mean he's just dying to flip the switch on the next American Christo-Facist State. As you said, its a disingenuous tactic to pull on a man who has plenty of other faults to focus on. He may be many things, but he's not a bible-thumper.

Pseudoephedrine · March 08, 2007, 03:25:06 PM

It's true, it is the most liberal of the evangelical churches. Up here in Canada, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Congregationalists are all part of the United Church of Canada (which is in bed with the Anglicans/Episcopalians these days) and it ordains gays, which no other evangelical communion I'm familiar with will do.

On the specific issue of Bush, it is worth pointing out that many Methodists do find him particularly conservative for a Methodist. You can see the evidence yourself by googling up "Bush methodist". Most of the articles on the first few pages complain about how he isn't as socially liberal as mainstream Methodism.

Zalmoxis · March 08, 2007, 03:32:11 PM

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaExcept when it's a BAD THING, of course.

!i!

I think religion does more good for people than bad.

Ian Absentia · March 08, 2007, 03:41:52 PM

Quote from: ZalmoxisI think religion does more good for people than bad.

And that's a very nice, concise, if unqualified, statement. Such is the nature of faith. On a more tangible level, though, the balance between personal faith and organised, hierarchical administrative structure throws your assertion into question. Is it the welfare of the individual we're discussing here, or the welfare of society at large? Because I'll give the spiritual welfare of the individual a lot of slack, while I'll throw down the stops when it comes to the political structure of organised religion.

!i!

Pete · March 08, 2007, 03:58:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPunditAccording to the Pew survey in 2002, 59% of Americans claimed that religion was an "very important factor in their lives", making it the only country in the developed world where a MAJORITY of the respondents chose "very important" (in comparison, the UK was 33%, Canada was 30%, France was only 11%).

Quite frankly, considering this was only the year after 9/11, I'm amazed this number polled as low as it did. I'll have to do some checking to see what, if any, the more recent numbers are.

James McMurray · March 08, 2007, 04:00:09 PM

The real question though, is which should Bush spend more time infusing his life with: Methodism or Methodone?

Ian Absentia · March 08, 2007, 04:01:44 PM

Quote from: MoriartyQuite frankly, considering this was only the year after 9/11, I'm amazed this number polled as low as it did. I'll have to do some checking to see what, if any, the more recent numbers are.

And previous numbers, too.

!i!

Dominus Nox · March 08, 2007, 04:27:10 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayThe real question though, is which should Bush spend more time infusing his life with: Methodism or Methodone?

You can OD on methodone, right?

Werekoala · March 08, 2007, 04:37:30 PM

Hey, Nox, is that a new and unintentionally hilarious .sig?

Zalmoxis · March 08, 2007, 05:42:46 PM

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAnd that's a very nice, concise, if unqualified, statement. Such is the nature of faith. On a more tangible level, though, the balance between personal faith and organised, hierarchical administrative structure throws your assertion into question. Is it the welfare of the individual we're discussing here, or the welfare of society at large? Because I'll give the spiritual welfare of the individual a lot of slack, while I'll throw down the stops when it comes to the political structure of organised religion.

!i!

I'm referring to religion itself, and not the mechanisms like churches, synagogues and mosques. While I have seen churches and religious groups do great things, I have also seen them perform some pretty horrific deeds. I was referring more to the individual.

RPGPundit · March 09, 2007, 02:07:47 AM

Quote from: Serious PaulReligion covers a lot of ground here. Are we discussing solely christians, or all religions?

Given that 83% of Americans identify themselves as belonging to some kind of Christian denomination, we're pretty well talking about Christians, yes.

RPGPundit

RPGPundit · March 09, 2007, 02:11:37 AM

Quote from: WerekoalaI don't know where he gets the idea that Bush is some snake-handling Pentecostal. For someone who has a degree in, and teaches about, religion, he knows passing little about the American scene. I've said it before and I'll say it again - Bush is a Methodist. Methodists are damn-near Atheists, except they have to get up for church on Sunday. The only difference between Methodists and CoE is that the churches in England are older.

Now, if he were a Southern Baptist, then he might have a point.

Bush is a methodist by denomination; in the sense that Daddy Bush and Babs are your standard east-coast WASP methodists. But Dubya is a born-again christian by personal experience... I mean, you can opine that all of that is just a lie; and that in reality he's just using the Religious Right; and you might be true.
But if you take the dude at his word, he's a born-again christian in practice. He's hardcore, and we know he has regular weekly meetings with various "leaders" of the Christian evangelical movement, including (until recently) that Ted Haggard fellow that got into the trouble with the gay prostitute...

This dude is not a mild-mannered methodist leading saturday night Bingo in a dusty chapel:

RPGPundit

Serious Paul · March 09, 2007, 07:47:45 AM

Quote from: RPGPunditGiven that 83% of Americans identify themselves as belonging to some kind of Christian denomination, we're pretty well talking about Christians, yes.

RPGPundit

Again I'd like to see where you're getting your numbers from. What are you basing your statements on? Experience? Studies? Polls? This is mostly to satisfy my curiosity.

Werekoala · March 09, 2007, 10:57:14 AM

Quote from: RPGPunditBut if you take the dude at his word, he's a born-again christian in practice. He's hardcore, and we know he has regular weekly meetings with various "leaders" of the Christian evangelical movement, including (until recently) that Ted Haggard fellow that got into the trouble with the gay prostitute...

He's hardcore? A hardcore what? Got proof?

Does he have weekly meetings with hard-right leaders - or do they meet with his staff? Are they on their knees in the Oval Office receiving direct brain-taps from the Almighty about how "We're Gunna Get Them Liburhals and Raghaids!" or is he shaking their hand on the way to a briefing so they can go back to their congregations and claim to have the Ear of the President?

If he's SO hard-Right and religious - how come the HardRight "base" is so disinchanted with him? He's certainly not acting on any aspect of their agenda, now is he?

And if he's NOT acting on it, what do appearances matter? You fear appearance, or action?

RPGPundit · March 09, 2007, 02:07:58 PM

The Emperor Constantine wasn't a christian until (arguably) on his deathbed. Yet his entire career was spent with the appearance of approving the formal Christianization of the Roman Empire, and we all know how that turned out.

EVEN if your argument was correct, and it may or may not be, the appearance of the President sanctioning the likes of Haggard, Pat Robertson, Dobson, etc etc. is something that can have serious social and political consequences.

RPGPundit