Quote from: HinterWeltI was nto saying all atheists are proselytizers, and I was hoping to see why some feel they should.


Bill

Hey, no worries Bill  It's a very emotive subject, as shown by this thread. The main problem with the bit quoted is that those who have expressed an opinion as to why they should proselytise have been jumped on to some degree. Of course, it does help if you use neutral language to do so, but the very expressing of an opinion is less than neutral. So it's sort of a forgone conclusion that things will get feisty.

Quote from: AkrasiaI don't know what you mean by 'spiritual beliefs' and 'very private'.  

Forgive me please, I was speaking of my spiritual beliefs and their belief structure.

Bill

Quote from: AkrasiaAtheists don't have 'spiritual beliefs' so the claim doesn't even make sense with respect to them.

Sure it does, if you read it instead of reading into it. It's very possible for an atheist to acknowledge the existence of spiritual beliefs and think that those are or should be private. Nowhere does he say anything about the spiritual beliefs of atheists.

Quote from: Werekoala... Please note: Yes, of course, we KNOW not ALL Atheists are like Mr. Harris. Its only the very small, vocal minority that feels the way he does. As usual, these rants are not directed at the vast majority of peace-loving Atheists who have no desire to press their views upon those who believe in a Magic Deer.

I rather regret linking to that article by Harris, whom I now regard as unnecessarily shrill and whose style is wholly counterproductive to furthering the views he endorses (as I noted here).

But I find that considerable hostility is directed against atheists simply because they are willing to actually debate and critically examine religion.  Sure some also want to 'proselytize', but most atheists I've encountered (including myself) don't really care that much about convincing people to become atheists.  Rather, it's the fact that they think that religious claims can be critically evaluated that upsets religious people.  People don't like to have their beliefs challenged (especially if those beliefs are based on faith).

Having learned something from the '10 myths' thread, I do think that atheists need to be tactful and careful when engaging in critical analysis of religious claims.  But that doesn't mean that the project itself is 'intolerant' or 'proselytizing'.

Quote from: HinterWeltForgive me please, I was speaking of my spiritual beliefs and their belief structure.

Bill

Quote from: James McMurraySure it does, if you read it instead of reading into it. It's very possible for an atheist to acknowledge the existence of spiritual beliefs and think that those are or should be private. Nowhere does he say anything about the spiritual beliefs of atheists.

Okay, fair enough.  

You only care about convincing people their God doesn't exist, is that it?

Akrasia's pretty reasonable. He's certainly very forceful in his arguments, and he refuses to let folks get away with what he thinks are shoddy arguments, but neither of those are particularly dependent on his being an atheist (though obviously, they are part of the ground of his choice to become an atheist). He's not proselytising except in the loosest sense of the word.

Mainly because aethiests have studied history, and know that if unchallenged and unopposed religions will grow in power and spread thru society until you end up with witch burnings, the inquisition, jyhads, etc.

I think most atheists just don't want a religion forced on them and feel they must do what they can to "keep it down".

It takes two to live in peace and it takes two to live and let live, and history shows that religions usualy aren't willing to do those things. Much of human history has been written under a "Faith or the Sword!" mentality, and finally, after thousands of years of various religions being used to justify various forms of tyranny and oppression, some people are wusing up and wanting to fight against anyone trying to shove his brand of religion down their throats.

When you listen to people like fallwell, robertson, the promise keepers, etc, I am so glad there are people willing to stop them from having their way.

Dominus, do you acknowledge the good things religions have brought to the world, or is that one of your many blind spots?

Interestingly enough, Nox, witch burnings and other unsavory activities you mentioned weren't stopped by the rise of atheism.  That leads me to conclude that they were therefore stopped by religious men.

So: Religious men do terrible things, thus religion is bad

But: Religious men put a stop to terrible things, thus religion is good.


Damn, dealing in generalities is confusing. :confused:


Of course, I enjoy people constantly mistaking my 'belief structure'... as they have done here so often, and even, yes virginia, on TBP as well.

Mr. A, you and GRIM (or was it Grimgent? Or both Grim and Grimgent?) were quite vocally proseletizing on this very site not all that long ago. Odd that you think mentioning it is misplaced.  Maybe it's guilt by assosiation, and you don't feel you were actually doing anything of the sort, but face it... we DO have very vocal anti-religion atheists on this site, and when you stand up to be counted when they are spewing (and... maybe doing some of it yourself) you can't cry that atheists are being attacked when someone asks why teh atheists sometimes act up like the religious crowd does.

Dude, your arguments were embarrassingly dumb on that 10 myths thread. Whatever the merits of the arguments in favour of religious belief, very few people on that thread appeared capable of presenting them clearly and persuasively, and you were not one of them.

Quote from: James McMurrayDominus, do you acknowledge the good things religions have brought to the world, or is that one of your many blind spots?

Well, religion has done some good, but in the end I think it does more harm than good. For example, the catholic chrich tries to supply food to starving africans and such. OK, nice. But the catholic chruch fights tooth and nail to prevent education re birth control and contraception reaching africa, thereby contributing to overpopulation and starvation. Bad. Very bad.

By fighting against contraception and birth control the catholic church has caused a great deal of starvation and also contributed to the spread of aids in africa.

Maybe you could tell us some of the good works that religion has done for the world, since you don't seem to have the same blind spots I do. Then again with your head up your ass I gues you DO have a different set of blind spots than I do.

(BTW, that may have seem a little 'extreme" a comeback, but fuck, sometimes you get so sick of little mosquitoes constanting nipping at you it feels good to take one out with a shotgun blast.)

Quote from: SettembriniIt´s a US thing. I heard a radio show, in which that was discussed.They said some Atheist groups in the US are getting quite militant and cultish these days.

Over here, it´s a total non-subject.

That's a pretty shitty thing to say, and one with no real basis in reality. In my own experiences it's never been an issue, and I'd never be as crass to suggest that was unique to my nation.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalA post with no content other than to pat someone on the back for making unfavourable and groundless generalisations about atheists using needlessly inflammatory language.

  Another case in point.

Are you denying what he said? Because I have seen it first hand. Just because the truth is at odds with your limited ability to reason, doesn't make it any less true.

Quote from: Dominus NoxMainly because aethiests have studied history, and know that if unchallenged and unopposed religions will grow in power and spread thru society until you end up with witch burnings, the inquisition, jyhads, etc.

Uh, apparently you haven't studied history very closely.  Take a look at the largest mass murders of civilians during the 20th Century.  Now, tell me which of those countries were officially atheist and which were motivated by a belief in God.

Quote from: Dominus NoxIt takes two to live in peace and it takes two to live and let live, and history shows that religions usualy aren't willing to do those things. Much of human history has been written under a "Faith or the Sword!" mentality, and finally, after thousands of years of various religions being used to justify various forms of tyranny and oppression, some people are wusing up and wanting to fight against anyone trying to shove his brand of religion down their throats.

Really?  When was the last time you had a sword put to your throat?  

Quote from: Dominus NoxWhen you listen to people like fallwell, robertson, the promise keepers, etc, I am so glad there are people willing to stop them from having their way.

Look at the demographic trends for religious people and atheists and then let me know who is going to be changing your diapers in the nursing home.