Hi all.  I want to read some of these books. From what I see online, they have gotten more woke over time.  I don't want to waste time or money reading woke material.

That said, where should I start?  The Horus Heresy? 

Quote from: Pen on February 09, 2023, 02:28:05 PM
Hi all.  I want to read some of these books. From what I see online, they have gotten more woke over time.  I don't want to waste time or money reading woke material.

That said, where should I start?  The Horus Heresy?

Any woke stuff is VERY recent.  You should be pretty safe buying anything published before, say, 2020 or even 2021.  And even their "woke" stuff is so tame I wouldn't really call it that -- it's more just like, they shoehorn in a bunch of female characters nobody gives a shit about while at the same time ignoring the Primarchs the book is supposed to be about.  That kind of thing.  Ham-handed attempts at diversity that don't help anything, but they're not preachy, either.  On a Woke scale of 1 to 10, I'd rate these a 1 -- you'll barely notice it.  At least up to the point where I quit reading them.  After they introduced Primaris Marines and Games Workshop told me to get lost and I wouldn't be missed, I quit reading the books.

As for where you start:  the Horus Heresy is great (most of the books; some are kind of wastes of time, but book reviews can guide you there).  But don't feel you need to start there just because they take place 10,000 years before everything else.

If military action is more your cup of tea, read Dan Abnett's "Gaunt's Ghosts" books.  If you like undercover spies/action with a dose of horror, read Dan Abnett's books about Inquisitor Eisenhorn and Inquisitor Ravenor.

I personally got started reading anthologies of short stories set in the 40K universe whose only similarity was that they took place in the same general setting. But I was exposed to every aspect of the universe by doing so -- Space Marines, the Inquisition, the Mechanicus, mutants, Sisters of Battle,  Imperial Guard, even stories written from the viewpoint of non-humans.  If you want diversity of subject matter and story types, this might be the way to go.

Whatever you decide, I think you've made the right choice in giving these books a try.

Thanks for the detailed answer.  I appreciate it.  I couldn't decide so I bought book 1 of the Horus Heresy and also The Space Wolves Omnibus.

I know very little about the 40k universe but it looks interesting.

Read anything by Dan Abnett or William King.

I particularly enjoyed the Inquisitor Ravenor series.

I haven't read their most recent work, so I don't know if their post-2020 is wokeshit.

Their older works however are A+ grimdark awesomesauce.

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 10, 2023, 05:58:45 PM
Read anything by Dan Abnett or William King.

I particularly enjoyed the Inquisitor Ravenor series.

I haven't read their most recent work, so I don't know if their post-2020 is wokeshit.

Their older works however are A+ grimdark awesomesauce.

I popped in to say the same thing. Abnett's Eisenhorn, Ravenor and Bequin inquisition series is phenomenal. Try to find older copies, because I have found edits in newer editions. Example: Bequin having originally worked as a "pleasure girl" when Eisenhorn is remembering how he discovered her, the words were changed/removed in later editions, including the audiobook(s).

The Gaunt's Ghosts series is also some of the best military science fiction I've read, though it starts out slow. It really takes off with Necropolis (3rd novel in the series, contained in the first Gaunt's Ghosts omnibus "The Founding").

Dan Abnett - Gaunt's Ghosts, Eisenhorn/Ravenor series,
Aaron Dembski-Bowden - Night Lords series, Armageddon Anthology, anything really
Chris Wraight - Vaults of Terra series, Watchers of the Throne series
Nick Kyme - Salamanders series
Ian Watson - Inquisitor series (old school Rogue Trader Imperium)
William King - Space Wolf series
Guy Haley - Dark Imperium, Dawn of Fire novels
Anything Warhammer Crime, it's all on the same world.
Necromunda novels, especially the older stuff.

Horus Heresy is hit and miss in quality, but some of the characters like the Primarchs are showing up in the modern era and so understanding the lore can give a better context.

Haven't seen much woke shit to be honest.  There's been a couple cases where the Imperium has seen common cause with the Eldar vs. Chaos, Tyranids, Orks etc. as they are a much greater threat.  No female Space Marines, there's some Sororitas novels but they're not Mary Sue "Strong Women".  Imperial Guard has a couple of badass chicks.  Don't see homoeroticism, no Trans stuff in sight.

In general, I've noticed them cutting the sex content down, and the minis being less sexy (there's some mighty Thicc Escher gangers).  That's been going since RT though.

"Don't see homoeroticism, no Trans stuff in sight"

Slaanesh: Am I joke to you?

Quote from: Adeptus on April 26, 2023, 05:11:33 AM
"Don't see homoeroticism, no Trans stuff in sight"

Slaanesh: Am I joke to you?

Slaanesh is specifically about excess. Not homosexuality or transsexuality. Though one might argue Slaanesh uses the tropes of homosexuality and transsexuality in a negative light, being a chaos demon and all.

Abnett's non-Space Marine stuff is the only thing worth reading.

  I am with the recommendations for Eisenhorn and Ravenor series.   I thought they did a very good job of showing slices of life in the imperium of man and the world in general that was not all Huge Pauldrons and massive GUNs shooting and exploding all the time (though there is a bit of that).   I do have some issue with Ravenor's power level...at times he seem a very potent psycher and at other times he seems insanely powerful.   

Quote from: oggsmash on November 29, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
  I am with the recommendations for Eisenhorn and Ravenor series.   I thought they did a very good job of showing slices of life in the imperium of man and the world in general that was not all Huge Pauldrons and massive GUNs shooting and exploding all the time (though there is a bit of that).   I do have some issue with Ravenor's power level...at times he seem a very potent psycher and at other times he seems insanely powerful.

Ravenor has amplifiers built into his Chair, and his ship the Hinterlight.

The final trilogy, Eisenhorn v Ravenor is shaping up very well, too.

Quote from: Kiero on December 01, 2023, 05:54:09 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on November 29, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
  I am with the recommendations for Eisenhorn and Ravenor series.   I thought they did a very good job of showing slices of life in the imperium of man and the world in general that was not all Huge Pauldrons and massive GUNs shooting and exploding all the time (though there is a bit of that).   I do have some issue with Ravenor's power level...at times he seem a very potent psycher and at other times he seems insanely powerful.

Ravenor has amplifiers built into his Chair, and his ship the Hinterlight.

The final trilogy, Eisenhorn v Ravenor is shaping up very well, too.

  I know about the amplifiers, but it is also unquestionable his level of power "leveled up" substantially through out the three volume series about him and his warband.  He was doing things towards the end of the 3rd book that he could not do in the first.   They never really explain this and people range in what they refer to his power level to be from gamma to an alpha.   This seems to be demonstrated as the books progress.  If he leveled up I guess it makes some sense, but they never really say this.  He just goes from being Gamma level to Alpha because it seemed to make the story cooler instead of an internal logic.   Eisenhorn grows substantially in power as well, but its over the course of a hundred plus years and various items to amplify his ability.    The chair and his infirmity makes sense for Ravenor to become more powerful, but he is gamma level.  He ramps up a lot after that.   I guess I missed some event or item that was added after that, but his power level seems to be whatever is needed to create tension/drama/cool scenes as the books progress.

I am a fan of Sandy Mitchell's Commissar Cain series.
He describes the military decisions and background quite well and sticks quite close to the canon. Additionally the writing is high quality and humourous
In his latest novel there is a tech-priest antagonist which is described as "they" but while distracting in the beginning it makes sense since that one is biologically totally androgynous.

I tried Abnett's Ghaunt's Ghosts twice and I was totally underwhelmed. To my mind the novels read like the author once drove by a military camp in the past, his descriptions are way over the top while the endings were both stupid (in one case a handful of Eldar allied themselves with 100 soldiers of the Ghaunt's Ghosts and an inquisitor and defeated 10,000 heretics). And the writing is way too serious for my liking.

King is also pretty good. Never read any of his 40k novels but Felix and Gotrek are legendary.

I just find Cain a poor knockoff of Flashman.