Well, in america we had our worst single shooting today, with at least 32 dead from a single shooter at a college in Blacksburg, Va.
(The shooter was a chinese national over here on a visa, so no doubt retards like pundit will accuse me of anti-chinese "RACISM!!!" for speaking on this issue, so let me don my white robes and hood, and light my mini flaming cross on my desk so as to let them know how little their mindless chant of "RACIST!!! RACIST!!! RACIST!!!" means to me.)
Before the last body had fallen, it seems, and before the total death toll at the time was known, anti-gun groups were using this as an excuse to call for "tighter gun control" (A term that translates into "Abolition of gun ownership") as a way of fighting things like this.
Since this guy was apparently here on a visa, he could not have bought guns legally, meaning he acquired his weapons ilegally in all probability. This means that laws would not have deterred him from getting guns and comitting his rampage.
But let's put all that aside for now. (And yes, I'm pro gun ownership, to answer inevitable questions.)
I am filled with rage and pure, unadalterated odium at the anti-gun fanatics for making this mass tragedy a political issue before the blood of the victims had even ceased flowing from their wounds.
The anti-gun crown in america are fanatics, plain and simple. They are on a jyhad to eliminate the second ammendment and disarm the american public.
Their fanaticism has so utterly consumed them that they are no longer capable of common human decency, as ecidenced by the fact they are exploiting the deaths of at least 32 people (I don't count the shooter) for their own ends.
Don't you fanatical scum even know what a shred of decency looks like?!?!
How can you try turning this massacre into an issue to serve your own ends even before the most basic facts of the case are fully known?
I think the anti-gun crowd's cynical, obscene exploitation of the events at the college in Blacksburg show that they are utterly devoid of human decency, and so dedicated to their cause that they should be regarded as fanatical.
I hate the anti-gun crowd right now. Oh god, how I hate them...
And here was I thinking that the disgust, feeling of odium and hatred would be towards... the murderer.
It's a tragedy, and my thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.
I agree with you. I am a very proud gun owner who has never committed a crime with a gun, nor have I acquired any of my guns illegally.
And yet my own people don't trust me with them.
Quote from: JimBobOzIt's a tragedy, and my thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.
My thoughts exactly.
Well, of course I feel for the victims and their grieving families. That's one of the reasons I'm so fucking disgusted with the scum trying to exploit this and turn it into a political/social issue without regard to lett he victim's families have a fucking moment to grieve without knowing their loved ones deaths are being cynically and shamelessly exploited by fanatical scum.
Don't tell us. Tell them.
Wailing on an rpg message board isn't going to change anything. Send your views to those who can do something about it. Like the media, the anti gun lobby themselves etc.
... or, y'know, take a one day moratorium from rabid, obsessive hatred entirely.
Nox: If you want to show respect for the victims, screaming "I hate those people who are using this tragedy to promote their views!" is really not the way.
I'm pretty sure that one of the lessons here is that hate is bad, and that we could all do with less of it.
Quote from: TonyLBNox: If you want to show respect for the victims, screaming "I hate those people who are using this tragedy to promote their views!" is really not the way.
Quote from: Dominus Nox[...] How can you try turning this massacre into an issue to serve your own ends even before the most basic facts of the case are fully known? [...]
Irony! My favourite kind of humour. 'Cept, I ain't laughin'.
TonyLB, sometimes the only reply you can have to someone is silence.
Quote from: Dominus NoxDon't you fanatical scum even know what a shred of decency looks like?!?!
Display decency by concern for the families and friends of the victims, and the victims still alive, and injured or traumatised. I'm sure someone will set up some kind of fund for them all in the coming days, perhaps Dominus Nox could show his concern for them by donating to it.
Show a shred of decency by not using the tragedy to express your opinions on the political issues it raises. At least let the victims go cold in their graves first.
Again, my thoughts and prayers go with the families and friends of the dead victims, the injured victims, and the family and friends of the shooter. It's a tragedy all-round.
My thoughts are with the grieving familiies, the wounded students and traumatized in Virginia.
While this was going onyeserday, the satellite dish store next to the store was playing the CNN live coverage of it.
There is a kids play area in the middle of the hallway in front of our stores. An old friend of mine, Tom was there with his wife and two youg kids. He was doing his best to watch his kids and keep them distrascted from thevolume of the big screen TV News about the tragedy.
Around 5 to 6 years ago Tom had to leave town and get a special operation in Chicago - he had heart problems that were life threatening and was in his mid -30s, and single.
Now he is married and with 2 kids and thinking about getting back into fan activities again.
Even with tragedies going on - there is good stuff also going on around us..... Life goes on.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Dominus Nox(The shooter was a chinese national over here on a visa, so no doubt retards like pundit will accuse me of anti-chinese "RACISM!!!" for speaking on this issue, so let me don my white robes and hood, and light my mini flaming cross on my desk so as to let them know how little their mindless chant of "RACIST!!! RACIST!!! RACIST!!!" means to me.)
(emphasis mine)
no, but it's probably safe to accuse you of being incorrect.
next time, wait for the
facts.
I feel for the families and will prey for them. But frankly it is rather disgusting how this is being treated. This was a great tragidy but do you see us so heart broken over all the other just as tragic happenings around the world? Just yesterday 17 bodies were found around mexico in trash sacks and cars, ducktaped and exocuted. Ten Afghani police men and dozens of others were killed and injured by a suicide bomber while playing soccer. Also the mayor of Nagasaki was shot while on campian in an apparent assasination attempt.
That was just yesterday. Where is the public out cry? Where are the moments of silence and greif? We as Americans are so caught up in our problems that unless it is an American death it does not matter as much. Look at any news articule about a group killed outside of the U.S.. It will say this many killed including Joe and Mary Smith of Kansas. Then it will go into how this was their 3rd trip to timbuktu. All of America will cry out. Politicians will wring their hands and maybe the Presadent will say a few words about the Smiths. What makes the lives of those Americans so important and the lives of the others killed only worth a body count?
When America starts crying for all the Children killed in a day not just our own, then will we finally be a true society of justice. The true tragidy is that all the students that died yesterday will be forgotten when the next batch of American citizens dies on television.
Peace be with all of you.
Depending on whose figures you believe, from 100 to 500 Iraqis get killed every day.
Should we drag out the old Stalin quote now? (I think it was him, at least)
Quote from: JimBobOzTonyLB, sometimes the only reply you can have to someone is silence.
Followed immediately by a reply to Nox.
Irony! My favourite kind of humour.
:D
Quote from: Dominus NoxWell, in america we had our worst single shooting today, with at least 32 dead from a single shooter at a college in Blacksburg, Va.
(snip)
How can you try turning this massacre into an issue to serve your own ends even before the most basic facts of the case are fully known?
The most basic facts are "A guy with a gun shot people."
We were pretty well on top of that.
Now, here's the thing, when something happens, especially something bad, people want to deal with it. If, say, there's a fire, people want to know what started teh fire and what can be done to prevent it in the future. People will speculate, even as the place is burning, on how it started.
When people are getting killed, the question, "How are they being killed?" is valid, and when teh answer is given immediately, "They are being shot," then you usually move on to "How do we stop this from happening again?"
Same as if you'd stepped in a bear trap. At first, you'd go, "AUGH! OW! Oh my sweet lord in Heaven, how this hurts!" but, after a bit, you'd ask, "Who was teh moron who LEFT this here?!" and so forth.
Had the story instead been "Fast-thinking quickdraw artist whips out a pistol and guns down a terrorist on school's front lawn," the pro-pistol-packers would be JUST as fast to jump up and go, "See? See? Having guns prevents crime!"
So, hey, how about you sit back, calm down a bit, and think about the people who lost loved ones, then maybe, just maybe, ask, "How can we try and prevent this in teh future?"
You'll find it much more useful than seeing a gun-based tragedy on teh TV, LEAPING to your keyboard, and furiously typing "They'd better not try and take away my guns!"
It's, you know ... rational.
And benig rational is your friend.
Quote from: WakshaaniAnd benig rational is your friend.
I see you haven't met Nox yet. Nox, Wakshaani. Wakshaani, Nox. Or as we lovingly refer to him "that raving lunatic who makes people want to get rid of the Off Topic forum just so he'll shut up about politics, racism, and countless other idocies." :)
As a veteran to these boards, I feel it is my duty to inform you that all attempts at reason with him on matters political, social, and generally non-RPG will be met with failure. If these types of situations upset you, the best bet is to ignore him in the OT threads. He's a useful member of many RPG threads though.
Quote from: StumpydaveDon't tell us. Tell them.
Wailing on an rpg message board isn't going to change anything. Send your views to those who can do something about it. Like the media, the anti gun lobby themselves etc.
"People seem to think that by posting in threads and agreeing with other people they are changing the world. They are not. They are posting in threads online. The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. Being outraged online is a form of entertainment, and refreshing a thread to receive a hit of consensus packs the thrill of genuine activism without requiring any sweat. I'm afraid this test may require more from the community than a sardonic jpeg. " -- Jerry "Tycho" Holkins
Quote from: Dominus Nox(The shooter was a chinese national over here on a visa, so no doubt retards like pundit will accuse me of anti-chinese "RACISM!!!" for speaking on this issue, so let me don my white robes and hood, and light my mini flaming cross on my desk so as to let them know how little their mindless chant of "RACIST!!! RACIST!!! RACIST!!!" means to me.)
All of which has
nothing to do with the rest of your post, other than underscoring the fact that the murderer in question was a non-citizen in the US on a student visa. There you go looking for a fight where there is none again. Knock it off.
QuoteSince this guy was apparently here on a visa, he could not have bought guns legally, meaning he acquired his weapons ilegally in all probability. This means that laws would not have deterred him from getting guns and comitting his rampage.
But let's put all that aside for now.
Let's not. This statement undermines your whole argument (if there is one, really). The anti-gun lobby certainly doesn't advocate the sale of firearms to non-US citizens. You're right on one count, and that's that, in all probability, in the current environment of gun ownership and sales in the US, gun control laws may not have had a deterrent effect on this fellow's ability to obtain firearms illegally. The anti-gun lobby would agree with you there. So what the hell are you bitching about?
Oh, right. That calls for tighter controls on the sale and responsible ownership of firearms -- not the outright abolition of gun ownership by any stretch of the imagination -- makes you angry. That some lobbyist or activist spending his or her 15 seconds of fame on a sensationalist media broadcast makes you angry.
Whatever, man. As I've been going round and round with my workmates recently, eliminate your confounding variables, isolate your root cause, and stop attributing "failed" results to the entire system.
!i!
He was a Green Card Alien (permanent resident) and therefore perfectly within his rights to buy a gun. The 9mm was bought on March 13 (so this wasn't a crime of passion, most likely, but pre-planned - as evidenced by the chains for the doors). The .22 was bought more recently.
The thing I object to is the uninformed who make it sound like anyone can just walk into a Wal Mart (sure, why not?) and buy a gun and walk out with it. We've got 7-day waiting periods on firearms in this country, and they didn't stop this guy. Nothing would've stopped this guy. If you're going to kill people, you're going to kill people. And don't give me that crap about guns making it easier to kill lots of people. Yes, of course. So do cars. So do bombs. So does anything if you've got the will to use it. And there are SO many guns in this country already that they're like illegal aliens - no way in hell you could get rid of all of them. So, using the same logic, I say we don't even try.
Quote from: WerekoalaWe've got 7-day waiting periods on firearms in this country
3 in Illinois for pistols, 1 for long arms. I agree we have waiting periods, but they are not uniform by any stretch of the imagination. By making gun laws a local issue, the entire country is a crazy quilt of contradictory laws. The only laws you can really ever understand fully are state laws and the laws of your city/county of residence.
I thought Federal was 7 days. Brady Bill and whatnot, or did that finally expire? Haven't bought a gun in a few years.
The 7-days was to make sure there was time for a background check, but with the more automated records I guess they shortened it?
Point is, he was checked and he had no record. A 25 day waiting period wouldn't have mattered.
Quote from: WerekoalaHe was a Green Card Alien (permanent resident) and therefore perfectly within his rights to buy a gun.
Thank you for that clarification.
QuoteAnd don't give me that crap about guns making it easier to kill lots of people. Yes, of course. So do cars. So do bombs.
Why not? Buying a gun is easier than making a bomb. A gun is concealable and more convenient and practical than taking a car onto a campus or into a building. There's also a
cachet to guns in our culture that makes it downright
attractive to fantasise about meting out punishment with impunity.
There are all kinds of problems with guns in this nation, and none of them have anything to do with the mechanics of the firearms themselves. I honestly agree with the tired old bumpersticker that reads, "Guns don't kill people -- people kill people." And we are immersed in a culture that facilitates and even promotes the use of guns to kill people, whether it be for lawful or unlawful reasons, righteous or depraved.
QuotePoint is, he was checked and he had no record. A 25 day waiting period wouldn't have mattered.
How about a psychological evaluation?
!i!
There are too many guns bought and sold to psychologically evaluate every prospective customer. The best you'd have is scan tron questionnaires with the right answers being sold in seedy bars.
Quote from: James McMurrayThere are too many guns bought and sold to psychologically evaluate every prospective customer.
So does that imply too many guns, or too many customers? Or both? If it's effectively impossible to insure that they are being sold only to responsible and competent owners, then what does that say about the market for firearms in the US?
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHow about a psychological evaluation?
I'll answer this one the same way I get involved with the cigarette debate. If they're THAT bad, ban them. Psychological evaluation for someone to buy a perfectly legal item is rediculous. Guns are already pretty well regulated (after all, he didn't use an M-16, but a typical 9mm pistol and a .22, fer chrissakes).
The fact that he killed so many people is a factor of a) chaining doors shut (ban chain?) and b) knowing what he was doing. He wasn't some random shooter, he obviously knew exactly what to do and how to do it. I'm amazed we haven't had MORE shootings with body counts like this, truthfully. Its really not that hard to kill a human being with a gun - you just have to know what you're doing.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaSo does that imply too many guns, or too many customers? Or both? If it's effectively impossible to insure that they are being sold only to responsible and competent owners, then what does that say about the market for firearms in the US?
What about the umpteen million guns already in circulation? You could ban all gun sales tomorrow and still have 100 million+ out there, somewhere.
Barn. Horse. We just have to accept it as a danger of doing business. Kinda like all the other things we'd like to "fix" that we can't or won't because it'd be too hard.
Obviously the best solution is for everybody to be packing.
"Hey, nutcase!" BOOM
Quote from: WerekoalaThe fact that he killed so many people is a factor of a) chaining doors shut (ban chain?) and b) knowing what he was doing.
We could ban knowledge.
Quote from: WerekoalaI'll answer this one the same way I get involved with the cigarette debate. If they're THAT bad, ban them.
I don't recommend that you hold your breath, but we're not that far away from it. Certainly the popular campaign against them has seriously turned the tide in the last 20 years. I can imagine the same happening to gun ownership.
QuotePsychological evaluation for someone to buy a perfectly legal item is rediculous.
But they aren't "perfectly" legal, are they? The fact that a handgun's
intended use is, at best, considered justifiable homicide belies that fact.
QuoteHe wasn't some random shooter, he obviously knew exactly what to do and how to do it. I'm amazed we haven't had MORE shootings with body counts like this, truthfully. Its really not that hard to kill a human being with a gun - you just have to know what you're doing.
Here I readily agree with you, and thus has it been throughout the ages, since long before the advent of gunpowder.
Look, I'm not an anti-gun nut. A nut of some variety, perhaps, but I actually support the right to own and bear arms responsibly. Now, I extend that responsibility a long way toward the
type of firearm owned, the
reason for the individual to bear it, and the
manner in which they do both.
By some coincidence, I just had this discussion with my two children (ages 8 and 6) over the dinner table last night. They'd recently been visiting their grandpa out in the country, been shooting BB guns, and watching my father-in-law and my wife fire off .22 rifles. My son just recently shot and killed his first bird. I started the conversation out by asking them to tell me what's good about a gun. We all agreed that they're useful tools for hunting and protection, and that they can be fun to fire. I then asked them what's wrong with guns, and they quickly conceded that they're dangerous when used wrong. That was pretty much where I left the discussion, though I did go into some detail as to why their mother and I have consciously decided to not own any guns ourselves.
You know, my wife brought up the topic of the Virginia Tech shootings last night, and my finger-pointing consisted of this: Population Density. Too many fucking people, living too close together. It's driving us nuts, increasing the statistical likelihood of tragedies such as this, and it's only going to get worse. Try to imagine a legislated solution to my assertion. I suggested a 40% to 60% world-wide reduction in the human population -- as long as it doesn't affect me or my immediate family.
!i!
Population density of the US: 31 per sq km
Violent gun deaths: 18.57 per 100 000 (1993)
Population density of Singapore: 6 208 per sq km
Violent gun deaths: 15.77 per 100 000 (1994)
Interesting statistic, but Singapore as a nation is also, effectively, a single city-state. Narrow down the US statistics to more closely pinpoint the occurrance of the violent gun deaths, and I imagine the population densities would be more comparable. Of course, the US's death rates will increase significantly, too.
I'll readily concede that my population density theory may prove spurious, or at least open to critique. :)
!i!
Population density of Japan: 339 per sq km
Violent gun deaths: 17.34 per 100 000
A complete ban on guns means only the government and the criminals have them. I don't actually own a gun, and don't plan to* but that's not a place I want to live in.
*at least not until I have no kids in the house, and probably not after that.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaBut they aren't "perfectly" legal, are they? The fact that a handgun's intended use is, at best, considered justifiable homicide belies that fact.
I use my handguns to make holes in paper, not holes in people - though I also consider them useful for that, should it come to it.
Regardless, yes, they are still "perfectly legal" in the sense that there are no laws against owning them. Same with cigs.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou know, my wife brought up the topic of the Virginia Tech shootings last night, and my finger-pointing consisted of this: Population Density. Too many fucking people, living too close together. It's driving us nuts, increasing the statistical likelihood of tragedies such as this, and it's only going to get worse. Try to imagine a legislated solution to my assertion. I suggested a 40% to 60% world-wide reduction in the human population -- as long as it doesn't affect me or my immediate family.
I've heard this theory before, and its as good as any.
Quote from: droogPopulation density of the US: 31 per sq km
Violent gun deaths: 18.57 per 100 000 (1993)
Population density of Singapore: 6 208 per sq km
Violent gun deaths: 15.77 per 100 000 (1994)
What amazes me about this isn't that Singapore has fewer gun deaths, but that it has ANY. I thought it was a much more draconian country than that.
Quote from: WerekoalaWhat amazes me about this isn't that Singapore has fewer gun deaths, but that it has ANY. I thought it was a much more draconian country than that.
It's a funny old place. I've always liked this old article by William Gibson:
Disneyland with the Death Penalty (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/gibson.html)
Quote from: James McMurrayA complete ban on guns means only the government and the criminals have them. I don't actually own a gun, and don't plan to* but that's not a place I want to live in.
But who's proposing that? I mean, in this thread at least...
Quote from: WerekoalaI've heard this theory [regarding population density] before, and its as good as any.
Actually, droog's statistics seem to be suggesting otherwise. Nations commonly perceived as being more "orderly" than the US, with much higher population densities, appear to have comparable violent gun death rates.
Now, I have to wonder how their
accidental gun death rates compare.
!i!
Quote from: WerekoalaI use my handguns to make holes in paper, not holes in people - though I also consider them useful for that, should it come to it.
The argument, as ever, really pertains to what a particular gun is intended to do, like military semi-automatic rifles that have been converted to full-automatic fire for "collector" purposes or for "hunting".
QuoteRegardless, yes, they are still "perfectly legal" in the sense that there are no laws against owning them. Same with cigs.
I can see putting holes in paper with cigarettes, but when was the last time you put a hole in a human being with one, either on purpose or on accident?
Sorry, I couldn't resist that last dig.
!i!
Quote from: droogIt's a funny old place. I've always liked this old article by William Gibson:
Disneyland with the Death Penalty (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/gibson.html)
Interesting. And that was 14 years ago.
Still dosn't explain the gun deaths - there must be a seedy underbelly he missed.
Quote from: James McMurrayThere are too many guns bought and sold to psychologically evaluate every prospective customer.
Also, almost no psychologist would be willing to sign away on the thing. Because in the end, people are
human, which makes them unpredictable. So some shrink signs away on some bloke's gun licence application, then three years later on some farm in the middle of nowhere, the guy flips out, murders his whole family and then kills himself. Then the daughter who wasn't there that day sues the shrink for four hundred million dollars.
They floated that idea around in Australia about ten years back, the shrinks told them "no thanks."
Quote from: droogObviously the best solution is for everybody to be packing.
"Hey, nutcase!" BOOM
I believe that's the NRA's theory, yes.
Quote from: JimBobOzThey floated that idea around in Australia about ten years back, the shrinks told them "no thanks."
I believe that was also the basic response to the proposal here in the US some time back.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaBut who's proposing that? I mean, in this thread at least...
It's been mentioned, but nobody has yet to actually stand behind it.
It was a direct response to you saying
QuoteI don't recommend that you hold your breath, but we're not that far away from it. Certainly the popular campaign against them has seriously turned the tide in the last 20 years. I can imagine the same happening to gun ownership.
I wasn't arguing with anyone in the thread, just pointing out the wrongness of an idea.
Quote from: JimBobOzAnd here was I thinking that the disgust, feeling of odium and hatred would be towards... the murderer.
Silly you. It's obviously a left-wing liberal conspiracy to make the country an easy target for terrorism! :rolleyes:
QuoteIt's a tragedy, and my thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.
Mine, too. Shame on Nox for trying to spin this for political support/gain.
Quote from: jdrakehMine, too. Shame on Nox for trying to spin this for political support/gain.
For that matter - shame on
anyone trying to spin this tragedy for political support or gain.
- Ed C.
Quote from: droogIt's a funny old place. I've always liked this old article by William Gibson:
Disneyland with the Death Penalty (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/gibson.html)
Thanks for that link, I haven't read it before and found it very interesting indeed. It also confirms a few theories of my own, though they're unrelated to politics. (They're gaming-oriented, actually. And, I think, literature oriented.)
Quote from: WerekoalaInteresting. And that was 14 years ago.
Still dosn't explain the gun deaths - there must be a seedy underbelly he missed.
Could be people going demented from the fact there's nothing to do in Singapore except visit shopping malls...
Re: gun control - do US states have a written test for driving licences that people have to pass before their actual test? Something like that might be a good idea for prospective gun owners.
Quote from: James McMurrayIt's been mentioned, but nobody has yet to actually stand behind it.
It was a direct response to you saying...
Ah. Of course, I was neither proposing nor supporting the notion myself, simply observing that a popular campaign can achieve what legislation fails to do. Actually, if you think about it, a popular movement is perhaps exactly how this sort of thing
should come about.
!i!
Quote from: Thanatos02Thanks for that link, I haven't read it before and found it very interesting indeed. It also confirms a few theories of my own, though they're unrelated to politics. (They're gaming-oriented, actually. And, I think, literature oriented.)
Lack of creativity in boring places?
Quote from: CaudexRe: gun control - do US states have a written test for driving licences that people have to pass before their actual test? Something like that might be a good idea for prospective gun owners.
Written and practical examination. I thought of mentioning this as a possibility, but then I immediately thought of how many near-criminally poor drivers are out there on the road. Also, there's the very foolish fact that, once a driver's license has been obtained in a given state, there's no provision for periodic
re-testing (unless you're either attempting to obtain a license in another state or you're attempting to re-establish your license after a revocation for whatever reason). Still, mandatory safety and handling examinations might keep a handful of crackpots out of the gun ownership pool.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWritten and practical examination. I thought of mentioning this as a possibility, but then I immediately thought of how many near-criminally poor drivers are out there on the road. Also, there's the very foolish fact that, once a driver's license has been obtained in a given state, there's no provision for periodic re-testing (unless you're either attempting to obtain a license in another state or you're attempting to re-establish your license after a revocation for whatever reason). Still, mandatory safety and handling examinations might keep a handful of crackpots out of the gun ownership pool.
On other thing to keep in mind is the really comparatively small number of deaths involving crazy people with guns, compared to other causes. Especially vehicle deaths. People who say "guns for everyone is nuts" wouldn't think twice about cars for everyone. And yes, I know, two different tools, two different uses. But if you want to cut back on the number of deaths, it should be considered in the argument.
I don't think cutting back on deaths is the goal, but cutting back on murder. There's vastly more cars in America than guns, but how many are used for homicide each year?
Dead is dead.
For example: I own several firearms. I can say, without much fear of being wrong, that the odds that I'll flip out and kill someone with any of them is close to zero. I'm "safe" with guns.
I've driven drunk before, multiple times. Not so much in recent years, but I've done it. Not safe at all, least of all to myself, but to anyone else on the roads with me as well.
So, which item - my gun or my car - poses a greater risk of killing someone?
First: The shooter was South Korean. Not that it probably matters to Nox or anyone else, since that news has been out for at LEAST 14 hours and no one mentioned it. Not Chinese. But whatever.
Second: Nice figures Droog. What are the average 'Violent Deaths' figures not limiting yourself to gun figures? I know Japan's murder rate is comparable to the United States (not identical, comparable) but they use knives. The fact that the average Japanese citizen can't get a hold of guns limits their choices on how.
Face it: in this, if nothing else, the NRA do have a valid point: Guns don't make people murders. People tend to be inclined towards violence, guns are merely a means to an end.
As I recall, the Day Trader shooter from a few years back used a gun, yes. But before he did, he murdered his wife and his mother with a fucking hammer. A hammer.
Oddly, no one is asking to ban hammers. Nor does the hammer portion of his spree get any mention in the news, its not sexy enough. I liken weapons technology to Pandora's box. You can't put it back in, no matter how much you want. Banning guns is a pipe dream, and will never be 100%. Japan's gun crimes are proof of that. They have incredibly strict anti-gun laws, yet they still have gun crime. Low, certainly, but it still exists.
Its an unpredictable tragedy.
...that should not be used by any side to score political points.
Best learning experience would be for Police and Emergency personnel to learn from their mistakes. Hopefully other campuses and campus police personnel across the country can look at what happened and make better plans for the future.
- E.W.C.
Quote from: SpikeBanning guns is a pipe dream, and will never be 100%. Japan's gun crimes are proof of that. They have incredibly strict anti-gun laws, yet they still have gun crime. Low, certainly, but it still exists.
Again, I'm becoming more interested in comparing accidental gun deaths.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAgain, I'm becoming more interested in comparing accidental gun deaths.
!i!
Funnily enough, Japan just had a high-profile gun killing.
The mayor of Nagasaki was killed by a hitman thought to be a member of the Yamaguchi-gumi.
But I think that's more a gangster problem than a gun problem.
edit: OK, not "thought to be", he is a Yamaguchi-gumi guy:
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070418dy01.htm
Murder rates 1998-2000 (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita)
#1 Colombia 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#24 USA 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
No figures for Singapore
And whoops--I screwed up on those figures before. I had total violent deaths in place of violent gun deaths. Let me revise them and see what happens:
(http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html)
per 100 000
USA (1993)
Total death 18.57
Total homicide 5.70
Firearm homicide 3.72
Total suicide 12.06
Firearm suicide 7.35
Japan (1994)
Total death 17.34
Total homicide 0.62
Firearm homicide 0.02
Total suicide 16.72
Firearm suicide 0.04
Singapore (1994)
Total death 15.77
Total homicide 1.71
Firearm homicide 0.07
Total suicide 14.06
Firearm suicide 0.17
That looks a little more as you might expect with regard to guns. Total violent deaths, though, is comparable between the places, so I still think population density may be a red herring. Maybe gun control, too.
Statistics can be used to prove anything even remotely true!
Big parts of the US are turned over to agriculture, parkland, or simply "pretty much fucking uninhabitable" (depths of the southwestern desert, the 'glades, Detroit), yes? I'd be curious about the population density in a portion of say, New York state, that's about the same size as Singapore and how that works out. I could get real thorough and ask after Singapore's unemployment rate, cultural attitude towards violence, drug statistics, demographic breakdown (call it what you like, when different tribes of us primitive ape-folk get close together we tend to flip out), availability of and cultural attitude towards guns, and a host of similar figures, but I'll settle for saying that it's possible this is a more complicated problem than any one factor and that all of them should be examined, personal opinions regarding firearms and ambiguous historical advice aside.
That said, I believe in the 'psychic living space' theory to a certain point. I don't think the world is simply more violent, to some small degree I think it's a combination of better tools for killing and more thorough media saturation these days, but I do think there are far too many of us and it's crowding our unconsciouses and one day we're all gonna flip the fuck out. Mad and joyous and cruel, as the Great Old Ones are.
Quote from: James McMurrayFollowed immediately by a reply to Nox.
Irony! My favourite kind of humour.
:D
JimBobOz generally gives quite good advice in my experience, well worth listening to.
He can't follow it himself as far as I can see, which is funny in the way other people's failings often are, but it's still good advice for all that.
I used to work for a chap who was a great currency markets analyst, couldn't trade worth a damn though, he didn't follow his own advice. His advice was still worth a lot of money to people for all that.
Anyway, I wanted to comment on that because actually I think JimBobOz frequently gives excellent advice. Ironically, by posting that I'm not following it either.
And that's all I have to say on this train wreck of a thread.
Quote from: BalbinusAnd that's all I have to say on this train wreck of a thread.
Train wreck? I'm honestly surprised at how civil the discussion and argument has been, given that it started out off the rails.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaTrain wreck? I'm honestly surprised at how civil the discussion and argument has been, given that it started out off the rails.
That's because the OP hasn't chimed in for a few posts.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaTrain wreck? I'm honestly surprised at how civil the discussion and argument has been, given that it started out off the rails.
!i!
It's the topic I'm uncomfortable with, and the using of it as a vehicle for arguing gun control (which was of course the OP's entire purpose).
Quote from: Christmas ApeI'd be curious about the population density in a portion of say, New York state, that's about the same size as Singapore and how that works out.
Google says population density of NY State is 155.18 per sq km. Sorry, can't help myself.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaTrain wreck? I'm honestly surprised at how civil the discussion and argument has been, given that it started out off the rails.
!i!
That's because we're just talking about the relatively tame topic of American Gun Control. Mention bagels, though... then IT'S ON!
Quote from: BalbinusIt's the topic I'm uncomfortable with, and the using of it as a vehicle for arguing gun control (which was of course the OP's entire purpose).
I think we've mostly moved away from that, and actually can't remember anyone doing it in this thread, just it being mentioned as having been done in the media. Of course, I didn't go reread before I posted that, so I'm probably wrong. :)
Quote from: James McMurrayI think we've mostly moved away from that, and actually can't remember anyone doing it in this thread, just it being mentioned as having been done in the media. Of course, I didn't go reread before I posted that, so I'm probably wrong. :)
Maybe we should be talking about "media control"! Like, they could actually get the facts before interviewing "experts" to speculate about the facts which might come in.
The new programmes are so keen to get the news first, sometimes they'll interview people to speculate about the coming news. "What sort of casualties can we expect in an invasion of Iraq?" "How would a Chinese national acquire firearms?" There's no bigger scoop than reporting the news
before it happens!
I think we need more media control, to prevent premature speculation. Basically the media needs a giant cock ring.
JimBob, just when I've given up hope that you an I will ever see things the same way, you go and post that. It's beautiful.
Premature Speculation. It's priceless. I could see an entire skit built on that premise...PS drugs for when you can't keep the ratings up...
Quote from: JimBobOzMaybe we should be talking about "media control"! Like, they could actually get the facts before interviewing "experts" to speculate about the facts which might come in.
I'd support the hell out of that. It's the reason the only news outlets I watch on TV are The Daily Show and The Colbert Report. They have truth, and they have fake shit. But it's always 100% clear which is which.
I have decided to close my mind. It's full and I don't want to know anything else....
Oh. No, sorry that was just my reaction to waves of numbers coming at me;)
These random shootings are something of extreme and personal interest for me. A very good freind of mine is currently in a great deal of pain from the five bullets he took at work just last year while I was out of the country. He is hailed as a hero for what he tried to do, and what he did after he was shot, but now he has no job, very little money, and other than a few people like me who know him, no one remembers his name.
It's not forgetting the victims and the heroes, or the weird enshrining of the killers that really gets to me. Its the helplessness I feel. I have given over most of my life to be the one in the way of danger, and I can not be there for them. I can't stop these people. It's frustration. I am trained, I have volunteered to put my life on the line for others, and yet when my friend needed me, I couldn't help him. When people who have done nothing but attempt to make a future for themselves are caught in a situation they should never have to face, I can not be there.
I have a frustrated hero complex. :rolleyes:
Now that some actual facts have had time to emerge from the speculation, it seems that one of the real villains in this story may be the US healthcare system which is ran as a for profit industry.
This guy was diagnosed as dangerous to hmself and possibly others, but was 'booted' out of the mental healthcare system because he was mostly regarded as dangerous to himself and the industry figured it'd be cheaper to send him home to kill himself.
This is common in the healthcare industry: Genuinely ill people, be it physically or mentally, are routinely just kicked out of the healthcare system and left to more or less suffer and/or die by accountants who'se view is limited to the bottom line.
Maybe if this bastard had gotten some real help instead of just being booted out of the healthcare system, this might not have happened.
Quote from: Dominus NoxThis guy was diagnosed as dangerous to hmself and possibly others, but was 'booted' out of the mental healthcare system because he was mostly regarded as dangerous to himself and the industry figured it'd be cheaper to send him home to kill himself.
So this is your new refrain? Let me tell you, in broad strokes, there are many, many reasons why some people fall through the cracks in the community mental health systems. One of the big ones is cultural stigma, the shame of admitting that you or one of your family is "crazy", which leads to reticence to participate fully with out-patient mental health care, or to outright denial that mental illness is, in fact, the problem.
Nox, stop mouthing off where you plainly lack any substantial facts. Your opinions are poorly-informed, embarrassing, and often insulting.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaSo this is your new refrain? Let me tell you, in broad strokes, there are many, many reasons why some people fall through the cracks in the community mental health systems. One of the big ones is cultural stigma, the shame of admitting that you or one of your family is "crazy", which leads to reticence to participate fully with out-patient mental health care, or to outright denial that mental illness is, in fact, the problem.
Nox, stop mouthing off where you plainly lack any substantial facts. Your opinions are poorly-informed, embarrassing, and often insulting.
!i!
Bite me.
Quote from: Dominus NoxNow that some actual facts have had time to emerge from the speculation, it seems that one of the real villains in this story may be the US healthcare system which is ran as a for profit industry.
This guy was diagnosed as dangerous to hmself and possibly others, but was 'booted' out of the mental healthcare system because he was mostly regarded as dangerous to himself and the industry figured it'd be cheaper to send him home to kill himself.
This is common in the healthcare industry: Genuinely ill people, be it physically or mentally, are routinely just kicked out of the healthcare system and left to more or less suffer and/or die by accountants who'se view is limited to the bottom line.
Maybe if this bastard had gotten some real help instead of just being booted out of the healthcare system, this might not have happened.
Not only are my political views vindicated by this terrible tragedy, but also the status of my profession. Furthermore, it is only in the context of a national and international tragedy like this that we are reminded of the very special status of my hobby, and its particular claim to legislative protection. My religious and spiritual views also have much to teach us about the appropriate reaction to these truly terrible events.
Countries which I like seem to never suffer such tragedies, while countries which, for one reason or another, I dislike, suffer them all the time. The one common factor which seems to explain this has to do with my political views, and it suggests that my political views should be implemented as a matter of urgency, even though they are, as a matter of fact, not implemented in the countries which I like.
Of course this is a uniquely tragic event, and it is vital that we never lose sight of the human tragedy involved. But we must also not lose sight of the fact that I am right on every significant moral and political issue, and everybody ought to agree with me.
Quote from: CaudexNot only are my political views vindicated by this terrible tragedy, but also the status of my profession. Furthermore, it is only in the context of a national and international tragedy like this that we are reminded of the very special status of my hobby, and its particular claim to legislative protection. My religious and spiritual views also have much to teach us about the appropriate reaction to these truly terrible events.
Countries which I like seem to never suffer such tragedies, while countries which, for one reason or another, I dislike, suffer them all the time. The one common factor which seems to explain this has to do with my political views, and it suggests that my political views should be implemented as a matter of urgency, even though they are, as a matter of fact, not implemented in the countries which I like.
Of course this is a uniquely tragic event, and it is vital that we never lose sight of the human tragedy involved. But we must also not lose sight of the fact that I am right on every significant moral and political issue, and everybody ought to agree with me.
please send me a copy of your manefesto so I can get started on this!:haw:
Quote from: Dominus NoxBite me.
To quote one of David R's suggestions:
:jerkbag:
!i!
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