Quote from: WerekoalaInteresting. And that was 14 years ago.

Still dosn't explain the gun deaths - there must be a seedy underbelly he missed.

Could be people going demented from the fact there's nothing to do in Singapore except visit shopping malls...

Re: gun control - do US states have a written test for driving licences that people have to pass before their actual test? Something like that might be a good idea for prospective gun owners.

Quote from: James McMurrayIt's been mentioned, but nobody has yet to actually stand behind it.

It was a direct response to you saying...

Ah.  Of course, I was neither proposing nor supporting the notion myself, simply observing that a popular campaign can achieve what legislation fails to do. Actually, if you think about it, a popular movement is perhaps exactly how this sort of thing should come about.

!i!

Quote from: Thanatos02Thanks for that link, I haven't read it before and found it very interesting indeed. It also confirms a few theories of my own, though they're unrelated to politics. (They're gaming-oriented, actually. And, I think, literature oriented.)

Lack of creativity in boring places?

Quote from: CaudexRe: gun control - do US states have a written test for driving licences that people have to pass before their actual test? Something like that might be a good idea for prospective gun owners.

Written and practical examination.  I thought of mentioning this as a possibility, but then I immediately thought of how many near-criminally poor drivers are out there on the road.  Also, there's the very foolish fact that, once a driver's license has been obtained in a given state, there's no provision for periodic re-testing (unless you're either attempting to obtain a license in another state or you're attempting to re-establish your license after a revocation for whatever reason).  Still, mandatory safety and handling examinations might keep a handful of crackpots out of the gun ownership pool.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWritten and practical examination.  I thought of mentioning this as a possibility, but then I immediately thought of how many near-criminally poor drivers are out there on the road.  Also, there's the very foolish fact that, once a driver's license has been obtained in a given state, there's no provision for periodic re-testing (unless you're either attempting to obtain a license in another state or you're attempting to re-establish your license after a revocation for whatever reason).  Still, mandatory safety and handling examinations might keep a handful of crackpots out of the gun ownership pool.

On other thing to keep in mind is the really comparatively small number of deaths involving crazy people with guns, compared to other causes. Especially vehicle deaths. People who say "guns for everyone is nuts" wouldn't think twice about cars for everyone. And yes, I know, two different tools, two different uses. But if you want to cut back on the number of deaths, it should be considered in the argument.

I don't think cutting back on deaths is the goal, but cutting back on murder. There's vastly more cars in America than guns, but how many are used for homicide each year?

Dead is dead.

For example: I own several firearms. I can say, without much fear of being wrong, that the odds that I'll flip out and kill someone with any of them is close to zero. I'm "safe" with guns.

I've driven drunk before, multiple times. Not so much in recent years, but I've done it. Not safe at all, least of all to myself, but to anyone else on the roads with me as well.

So, which item - my gun or my car - poses a greater risk of killing someone?

First: The shooter was South Korean. Not that it probably matters to Nox or anyone else, since that news has been out for at LEAST 14 hours and no one mentioned it. Not Chinese.  But whatever.

Second: Nice figures Droog. What are the average 'Violent Deaths' figures not limiting yourself to gun figures? I know Japan's murder rate is comparable to the United States (not identical, comparable) but they use knives. The fact that the average Japanese citizen can't get a hold of guns limits their choices on how.

 Face it: in this, if nothing else, the NRA do have a valid point: Guns don't make people murders.  People tend to be inclined towards violence, guns are merely a means to an end.

As I recall, the Day Trader shooter from a few years back used a gun, yes. But before he did, he murdered his wife and his mother with a fucking hammer.  A hammer.

Oddly, no one is asking to ban hammers.  Nor does the hammer portion of his spree get any mention in the news, its not sexy enough.   I liken weapons technology to Pandora's box. You can't put it back in, no matter how much you want.  Banning guns is a pipe dream, and will never be 100%. Japan's gun crimes are proof of that. They have incredibly strict anti-gun laws, yet they still have gun crime. Low, certainly, but it still exists.

Its an unpredictable tragedy.

...that should not be used by any side to score political points.
 Best learning experience would be for Police and Emergency personnel to learn from their mistakes. Hopefully other campuses and campus police personnel across the country can look at what happened and make better plans for the future.


- E.W.C.

Quote from: SpikeBanning guns is a pipe dream, and will never be 100%. Japan's gun crimes are proof of that. They have incredibly strict anti-gun laws, yet they still have gun crime. Low, certainly, but it still exists.

Again, I'm becoming more interested in comparing accidental gun deaths.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAgain, I'm becoming more interested in comparing accidental gun deaths.

!i!

Funnily enough, Japan just had a high-profile gun killing.
The mayor of Nagasaki was killed by a hitman thought to be a member of the Yamaguchi-gumi.

But I think that's more a gangster problem than a gun problem.

edit: OK, not "thought to be", he is a Yamaguchi-gumi guy:
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070418dy01.htm

Murder rates 1998-2000 (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita)

#1 Colombia 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#24 USA 0.042802 per 1,000 people  
#43 Australia 0.0150324 per 1,000 people  
#60 Japan 0.00499933 per 1,000 people

No figures for Singapore

And whoops--I screwed up on those figures before. I had total violent deaths in place of violent gun deaths. Let me revise them and see what happens:

(http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html)
per 100 000

USA (1993)
Total death 18.57
Total homicide 5.70
Firearm homicide 3.72
Total suicide 12.06
Firearm suicide 7.35

Japan (1994)
Total death 17.34
Total homicide 0.62
Firearm homicide 0.02
Total suicide 16.72
Firearm suicide 0.04

Singapore (1994)
Total death 15.77
Total homicide 1.71  
Firearm homicide 0.07  
Total suicide 14.06
Firearm suicide 0.17

That looks a little more as you might expect with regard to guns. Total violent deaths, though, is comparable between the places, so I still think population density may be a red herring. Maybe gun control, too.

Statistics can be used to prove anything even remotely true!

Big parts of the US are turned over to agriculture, parkland, or simply "pretty much fucking uninhabitable" (depths of the southwestern desert, the 'glades, Detroit), yes? I'd be curious about the population density in a portion of say, New York state, that's about the same size as Singapore and how that works out. I could get real thorough and ask after Singapore's unemployment rate, cultural attitude towards violence, drug statistics, demographic breakdown (call it what you like, when different tribes of us primitive ape-folk get close together we tend to flip out), availability of and cultural attitude towards guns, and a host of similar figures, but I'll settle for saying that it's possible this is a more complicated problem than any one factor and that all of them should be examined, personal opinions regarding firearms and ambiguous historical advice aside.

That said, I believe in the 'psychic living space' theory to a certain point. I don't think the world is simply more violent, to some small degree I think it's a combination of better tools for killing and more thorough media saturation these days, but I do think there are far too many of us and it's crowding our unconsciouses and one day we're all gonna flip the fuck out. Mad and joyous and cruel, as the Great Old Ones are.

Quote from: James McMurrayFollowed immediately by a reply to Nox.

Irony! My favourite kind of humour.

JimBobOz generally gives quite good advice in my experience, well worth listening to.

He can't follow it himself as far as I can see, which is funny in the way other people's failings often are, but it's still good advice for all that.

I used to work for a chap who was a great currency markets analyst, couldn't trade worth a damn though, he didn't follow his own advice.  His advice was still worth a lot of money to people for all that.

Anyway, I wanted to comment on that because actually I think JimBobOz frequently gives excellent advice.  Ironically, by posting that I'm not following it either.

And that's all I have to say on this train wreck of a thread.

Quote from: BalbinusAnd that's all I have to say on this train wreck of a thread.

Train wreck?  I'm honestly surprised at how civil the discussion and argument has been, given that it started out off the rails.

!i!