Quote from: Engine;250122I definitely understand that you believe so, but from my perspective, your "personal god" was simply the placebo which allowed you to leverage your existing willpower. Obviously, you don't agree, because of your personal experiences, but you can certainly understand how, to a rationalist, your behavior doesn't require a god to work.

I'm totally cool with people thinking I'm a self-deluding titan of willpower who needs to make idol masks of his personal assets in order to utilise them. I can never let myself fall into that belief again though, it damned nearly killed me a few years ago.

QuoteThat said, I think your original point - that religion can do good - is quite true. I believe it does more harm than it does good, overall, but that's just my impression based on my own experiences and the information I've gained over the years; I certainly don't have any sort of statistics available! Anyway, my best wishes on staying clean and sober; you have chosen the more difficult but more healthy of the paths available to you, much to your credit.

Cheers mate.

Quote from: Drew;250118I think this where you might be stumbling. You seem to be looking for a god that has an objective and verifiable existence that can proven to others through scientific means.

I'm not "stumbling," and I'm not looking for anything.  I am discussing God, a mythical entity, and his complete lack of an objective and verifiable existence.

I'm not interested in responding to the rest of your post, since you are talking about internal processes.  You refer to these processes with terminology borrowed from theistic jargon, others use occult jargon, others use psychological jargon, I myself tend to use Taoist or Buddhist jargon. These internal processes, while valuable in of themselves, really have nothing to do with discussion of God in the traditional sense of that word.  It's just a coincidence of jargon.  You seem to acknowledge this point yourself.

It's great that you found some concept of God and that helped you with your addiction, but I'm not really comfortable discussing this with you.  I don't want to attack the crutches you are using to prop yourself up just to prove a point, and you're putting me in a position of either agreeing with what I consider a very simplistic and naive viewpoint or attacking your crutches.  I'd appreciate it if you didn't put me in that position.

Quote from: Drew;250126Pretty much, although I prefer to use the word 'spiritual' when describing my own journey, simply because that's what feels most applicable to me.

I would use the same word for my mother's beliefs, too. Doesn't matter. The fact that it works and makes her happy means that labels and mere words (which often can't be related very well becuase it is so personal) cannot properly relate how it affects her. Which is why it annoys me so much when folk try to tell you what you feel/how you feel, about these things. Fuck that shit - you do, therefore it is good. All else is worthless noise.

Quote from: Engine;250127That sort of spirituality need not include anything supernatural, then, correct? It seems like "spirituality" would be a misleading term for this, but then again, I don't have another!

I've always referred to the concept as "enlightened self-interest" or "holistic thinking," and I certainly don't think there's anything supernatural about.

Mythopoetic maybe, but not supernatural.

Quote from: Engine;250127That sort of spirituality need not include anything supernatural, then, correct? It seems like "spirituality" would be a misleading term for this, but then again, I don't have another!

It became spiritual for me when I started being able to perceive it as a totality, rather than comprised of component parts.

And yes, spirituality (as I understand it) can absoloutely preclude belief in the supernatural. I think it's a fundamentally human phenomenon, and doesn't require gods (in the traditional sense) to work. I know someone in AA who uses Elvis as his Higher Power. Not the ghost of Elvis you understand, just the inspiring effect of the man's life and music. At first I thought the bloke was peddling some variety of flippant bullshit, but it really seems to work for him.

Quote from: Jackalope;250135don't want to attack the crutches you are using to prop yourself up just to prove a point, and you're putting me in a position of either agreeing with what I consider a very simplistic and naive viewpoint or attacking your crutches. I'd appreciate it if you didn't put me in that position.

Attacking while saying you don't want to attack is a rather odd methodology.

Quote from: Jackalope;250135It's great that you found some concept of God and that helped you with your addiction, but I'm not really comfortable discussing this with you.  I don't want to attack the crutches you are using to prop yourself up just to prove a point, and you're putting me in a position of either agreeing with what I consider a very simplistic and naive viewpoint or attacking your crutches.  I'd appreciate it if you didn't put me in that position.

On this subject I can only discuss the reality of my situation. I'm sorry you find that uncomfortable, but I can categorically state that I am not trying to position you in any way.

Quote from: CavScout;250146Attacking while saying you don't want to attack is a rather odd methodology.

I particularly like how Jack blames Drew for putting him in this uncomfortable situation.

Jackalope: six months of making even the people who agree with you cringe.

Quote from: HinterWelt;250082In th end, it is a choice. To believe a fantastical explanation or not. Did we spring into existence 10000 years ago at the whim of a supreme being who lacked a lot of foresight or are we a natural organism evolved over millions of years to fill a niche?

Why do you think God lacked a lot of foresight?

I'd argue that taking either one of your options (belief or unbelief in God) requires believing in a fantastical explanation.

-You were personally created in the image and likeness of an all-powerful, all-knowing God who has existed since before time began....pretty fantastical.

-You are the product of billions of years of random chance.  Through chance, the universe was created.  Through chance, this planet was formed with such conditions that through chance, life would arise where there was no life before.  And through chance, that first life, a microscopic cell, evolved over the ages into a human being sitting there typing on a computer....pretty fantastical.

So unless someone simply never thinks about such things, I'd say the choice is which fantastical explanation you believe in, not whether to believe one or not.

Quote from: Jackalope;250083What is floop?  Who fucking cares?  It's clearly unknowable to us, so it's existence or lack of existence is irrelevant.  Arguing the qualities and nature of floop is the intellectual equivalent of masturbation: you can do it all day, but nothing will come of it.

If you can't know God, then God might as well not exist.  You're just jerking off if you think otherwise.  There literally cannot be any point to a belief in an entity that you can't define in any meaningful way without resorting to making shit up.

Why is God clearly unknowable to us?  I'm sure that comes as quite a suprise to the billions of people who have a relationship with Him.  To be clear I'm not talking about Chrisitians, although they would certainly be included.  I'm talking about everyone who has gained some level of understanding of God through the living of their lives.

Quote from: Jackalope;250083If you can't know God, then God might as well not exist.  You're just jerking off if you think otherwise.  There literally cannot be any point to a belief in an entity that you can't define in any meaningful way without resorting to making shit up.

I haven't read through here and I don't know what claims other folk have made here, but this single statement reflects some confusion about what Christians, at least, mean when they say that know God, and don't know God.

The roots of the discussion about "knowing" go back to (at least) Paul's writing in Corinthians (in a glass, darkly, and all that), but a really good discussion of it is in Lewis's "Mere Christianity". Since I expect that no one here who hasn't read it is going to, I'll summarize-

1) God's not directly observable to us, and if He were, we'd probably be unable to make sense of what we perceived. So the usual way of knowing something, measurement and perception in general, don't work.

2) But God can perceive us and can choose to communicate to us, and in a variety of ways. Lewis focuses on three: 1) what we can see of creation, the external reality that we CAN see and measure, which gives us hints about a creator. Hints at best. 2) What we can determine about our own nature, such as the built-in desire for justice, fairness, and all the other positive human attributes that make no sense in a random universe without meaning. 3) The possibly of revelation, in which God presents himself in simplified forms that we can comprehend, at least somewhat. (Which is the idea behind "in a glass, darkly", etc.)

Bottom line, we can't know God on our own, but we can make guesses on some things based on what we can observe, and we can be told some things which we can't work out for ourselves. None of these would amount to a complete picture, in this life and maybe in any. But they amount to something.

Of course, if you deny the existence of revelation, don't see any pattern or order in the external world, and decide that human morality is an illusion or fantasy arising out of a meaningless universe and based on meaningless pleasure and meaningless pain, then none of those sources of information are the least bit convincing. It all comes down to your choices and perceptions, in the end. Lewis had some interesting analogies for that point as well, over in Narnia - they involved some dwarves in a stable.

Quote from: Engine;250150I particularly like how Jack blames Drew for putting him in this uncomfortable situation.

Dude, his argument boils down to "I believe in God because it's the only thing keeping me alive."

How am I supposed to respond to that?  It's not a very persuasive argument, but I don't want Drew to go kill himself because I pointed out he's being kind of irrational.

Quote from: wulfgar;250153-You are the product of billions of years of random chance.  Through chance, the universe was created.  Through chance, this planet was formed with such conditions that through chance, life would arise where there was no life before.  And through chance, that first life, a microscopic cell, evolved over the ages into a human being sitting there typing on a computer....pretty fantastical.

I think perhaps you and I have wildly differing notions as to what qualifies as "fantastical." Could you perhaps use another word, chosen more advisedly?

Also, what is it you mean by, "through chance?" I'm having a difficult time thinking of anything that happens through chance - I believe our universe is one of strict causality - but that may be an artifact of my understanding of the term.

Quote from: Jackalope;250160Dude, his argument boils down to "I believe in God because it's the only thing keeping me alive."

How am I supposed to respond to that?  It's not a very persuasive argument, but I don't want Drew to go kill himself because I pointed out he's being kind of irrational.

So all pretenses aside, you are attacking him but want to weasel out of actually owning the attack.

Quote from: Jackalope;250160Dude, his argument boils down to "I believe in God because it's the only thing keeping me alive." How am I supposed to respond to that?

Don't.

QuoteI think perhaps you and I have wildly differing notions as to what qualifies as "fantastical." Could you perhaps use another word, chosen more advisedly?

How about "amazing"?  Does that work any better?  

QuoteAlso, what is it you mean by, "through chance?" I'm having a difficult time thinking of anything that happens through chance - I believe our universe is one of strict causality - but that may be an artifact of my understanding of the term.

By chance I mean randomness.  The big bang happens.  Not just happens, but happens when and how it did.  A comet hurtling through the galaxy happens to impact with the earth and annihilate the dinosaurs, allowing mammals who were minor players on the planet to evolve into the dominant form of life, and ultimately mankind.  That kind of thing.  While I share your belief in cause and effect, I'd argue that randomness can be a cause, or one of multiple causes.