Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 02, 2022, 05:54:47 PM
Reckall, I had a sudden brainwave. Or fart, take it as you will. But do you know what your description of the scene with Arondir and Bronwyn reminds me of?

The way Finn (John Boyega) got kicked to the curb in the Star Wars sequels.

Seriously. I am getting the same vibe. For all their talk about 'muh diversity' or 'muh representation', what these worthless fucks want is tokens. Stand right there, little colored boy, so we can look good for the cameras, but don't talk.

But we're the fucking racists?

Yeah, I have the same vibe. One of the most heard grumbles about this show was the presence of a female black dwarf, Disa. "Why the heck dwarves should need melanin?" Then the show comes out and two things happen: A) Her character is among the best, both warm and funny and B) She is barely in the show. Six hours in and Disa appeared for less than ten minutes. You do the math.

Baiting, tokenism and outrage marketing at its best. Playing both sides and in the end wasting potential.

Must be former WOTC staff. Failure is the only option.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 02, 2022, 05:54:47 PM
Reckall, I had a sudden brainwave. Or fart, take it as you will. But do you know what your description of the scene with Arondir and Bronwyn reminds me of?

The way Finn (John Boyega) got kicked to the curb in the Star Wars sequels.

Seriously. I am getting the same vibe. For all their talk about 'muh diversity' or 'muh representation', what these worthless fucks want is tokens. Stand right there, little colored boy, so we can look good for the cameras, but don't talk.

But we're the fucking racists?

Remember that spoof photoshop of "Titania McGrath" looking sexy in front of all the poor Africans that she's "helping"? I couldn't find it, but it's pretty darn on the nose.

I wanted to like the show...you know...Tolkien and all. But I couldn't make it past ep.4. It's just so dull and boring, with bad writing and acting. But I do agree with some of my fav youtubers titles for the show. Rings of Representation, Recycled Rings of Fantasy LOL

Quote from: Reckall on October 05, 2022, 10:24:50 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 02, 2022, 05:54:47 PM
Reckall, I had a sudden brainwave. Or fart, take it as you will. But do you know what your description of the scene with Arondir and Bronwyn reminds me of?

The way Finn (John Boyega) got kicked to the curb in the Star Wars sequels.

Seriously. I am getting the same vibe. For all their talk about 'muh diversity' or 'muh representation', what these worthless fucks want is tokens. Stand right there, little colored boy, so we can look good for the cameras, but don't talk.

But we're the fucking racists?

Yeah, I have the same vibe. One of the most heard grumbles about this show was the presence of a female black dwarf, Disa. "Why the heck dwarves should need melanin?" Then the show comes out and two things happen: A) Her character is among the best, both warm and funny and B) She is barely in the show. Six hours in and Disa appeared for less than ten minutes. You do the math.

It's really weird that there are only one black dwarf and one black elf in all of Middleearth.
They should have just named them "Token" like South Park.

Quote from: DocJones on October 12, 2022, 04:48:43 PM

Quote from: Reckall on October 05, 2022, 10:24:50 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 02, 2022, 05:54:47 PM
Reckall, I had a sudden brainwave. Or fart, take it as you will. But do you know what your description of the scene with Arondir and Bronwyn reminds me of?

The way Finn (John Boyega) got kicked to the curb in the Star Wars sequels.

Seriously. I am getting the same vibe. For all their talk about 'muh diversity' or 'muh representation', what these worthless fucks want is tokens. Stand right there, little colored boy, so we can look good for the cameras, but don't talk.

But we're the fucking racists?

Yeah, I have the same vibe. One of the most heard grumbles about this show was the presence of a female black dwarf, Disa. "Why the heck dwarves should need melanin?" Then the show comes out and two things happen: A) Her character is among the best, both warm and funny and B) She is barely in the show. Six hours in and Disa appeared for less than ten minutes. You do the math.

It's really weird that there are only one black dwarf and one black elf in all of Middleearth.
They should have just named them "Token" like South Park.

Nah. They'd get Scott Adams'd.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on October 12, 2022, 04:41:15 PM
I wanted to like the show...you know...Tolkien and all. But I couldn't make it past ep.4. It's just so dull and boring, with bad writing and acting. But I do agree with some of my fav youtubers titles for the show. Rings of Representation, Recycled Rings of Fantasy LOL

Well, I watched the finale and... Let's put things this way: according to the show we just saw Galadriel's final descent into the Dark Side and Sauron having a direct hand in the creation of the Elven Rings. Let that sink for a min.

Quote from: Reckall on October 15, 2022, 05:17:29 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on October 12, 2022, 04:41:15 PM
I wanted to like the show...you know...Tolkien and all. But I couldn't make it past ep.4. It's just so dull and boring, with bad writing and acting. But I do agree with some of my fav youtubers titles for the show. Rings of Representation, Recycled Rings of Fantasy LOL

Well, I watched the finale and... Let's put things this way: according to the show we just saw Galadriel's final descent into the Dark Side and Sauron having a direct hand in the creation of the Elven Rings. Let that sink for a min.

....and I thought the Silmaril in the tree leading to the creation of the elf-saving mithril was taking it a bit far.

Quote from: Reckall on October 15, 2022, 05:17:29 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on October 12, 2022, 04:41:15 PM
I wanted to like the show...you know...Tolkien and all. But I couldn't make it past ep.4. It's just so dull and boring, with bad writing and acting. But I do agree with some of my fav youtubers titles for the show. Rings of Representation, Recycled Rings of Fantasy LOL

Well, I watched the finale and... Let's put things this way: according to the show we just saw Galadriel's final descent into the Dark Side and Sauron having a direct hand in the creation of the Elven Rings. Let that sink for a min.

I'm so glad I didn't watch this.

QuoteWell, I watched the finale and... Let's put things this way: according to the show we just saw Galadriel's final descent into the Dark Side and Sauron having a direct hand in the creation of the Elven Rings. Let that sink for a min.

Wait? What?

I mean I did not payed much attention watching - but I thought we saw: Galadriel unmasking Halbrand and Sauron -> Sauron trying to kill her in Dreamworld -> Sauron escaping -> Galadriel going to Celebrimbor and telling him they need to make Rings untouched by anyone by elves. Did I get something wrong - because as it was shown it seems as clumsy dumb way to lead us to Elven Rings as untouched by Sauron (though influenced by his knowledge) - and that's canonical solution.

Of course it's dumb, and Galadriel is still travesty - especially with her not revealing Sauron's identity to avoid problems with other elves - but it seems she quite clearly wants to purge Sauron influence over Celebrimbor (which took only 5 minutes of show and thats freaking travesty on its own).

Quote from: Wrath of God on October 22, 2022, 10:11:08 AM

QuoteWell, I watched the finale and... Let's put things this way: according to the show we just saw Galadriel's final descent into the Dark Side and Sauron having a direct hand in the creation of the Elven Rings. Let that sink for a min.

Wait? What?

I mean I did not payed much attention watching - but I thought we saw: Galadriel unmasking Halbrand and Sauron -> Sauron trying to kill her in Dreamworld -> Sauron escaping -> Galadriel going to Celebrimbor and telling him they need to make Rings untouched by anyone by elves. Did I get something wrong - because as it was shown it seems as clumsy dumb way to lead us to Elven Rings as untouched by Sauron (though influenced by his knowledge) - and that's canonical solution.

Of course it's dumb, and Galadriel is still travesty - especially with her not revealing Sauron's identity to avoid problems with other elves - but it seems she quite clearly wants to purge Sauron influence over Celebrimbor (which took only 5 minutes of show and thats freaking travesty on its own).

Consider these facts, all openly given to us by the show:

- Halbrand/Sauron lives in Celebrimbor's lab for a while. He gives counseil, manipulates the metals, we simply don't know what else he can have done. Remember, in the books the three Elven Rings were forged in total secret. The problem for the elves was that they used Sauron's teachings anyway, so they were still tied to the One Ring. The elves didn't use them until Sauron lost the One Ring in the War of the Last Alliance.

- Sauron enters Galadriel's mind! This is an amazing deviation from the lore, as Galadriel main power was her ability to conceal her thoughts (and protect from unwanted intrusion the area around her). Anyway it is unclear how/if he was able to manipulate her mind. What we know is that...

- Halbrand escapes after pointing out, quite correctly, that his return as "King of Mordor" was all Galadriel's doing - he actually was on the verge of retiring! It wasn't Sauron who manipulated Galadriel, it was Galadriel who manipulated Halbrand for her own ends. Even worse, Galadriel across the show was guided by a "the end justifies the means" drive that not only is as un-Tolkienian as it gets but also it is the same drive that guides Sauron. He flatly tells her that he wants the very same thing: to heal Middle-earth. Galadriel whines that she wants the same but not "as a ruler". Fine. Pity that what Galadriel wants is "do what I want and shut up", whereas even a Ruler has limits. She disobeys her King Gil-galad. She offends Tar-Míriel in front of her court. She lies about "being the Commander of the Northern Armies (Galadriel was stripped of this title by Gil-galad in the very first episode after pulling a stunt too far). She speaks for Halbrand without Halbrand's knowledge or permission (!) After a military disaster of her own making she promises that the elven armies will clean up the mess without having any authority, much less informing Gil-galad... And the list goes on.

- So, Halbrand/Sauron escapes and, in one of the most amazing turns of a show whose plots already make no sense, she keeps quiet about Halbrand being Sauron. And no one asks her about why Halbrand should never be named again. Even worse, she now asks for a Ring of Power. I mean...

- But, at the end, all comes down to a single thing: Halbrand/Sauron could have killed Galadriel, Celebrimbor, maybe even Elrond, stolen the alloys needed for making the Elven Rings, and destroyed Celebrimbor's forge - thus closing the chapter on the elves once for all (in one of the most baffling narrative choices among many there is this idea that the elves "need to use mithril to heal some sort of corruption or they will fade within next Spring; I know, don't ask, there are no answers).

So, there is only one way for the end to make sense: Sauron somehow corrupted the three Elven Rings. Galadriel not only is the sole responsible for the return of Sauron (!!) but she is also now devoured by a "righteous darkness" which will only expand once she gets a Ring. There is literally no coming back from this except via a final sacrifice and death (which is impossible, unless Amazon somehow has the rights to kill Galadriel): it is a very bad retelling of the story of Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker. Given these assumptions, it is easy to see why Sauron just went away: the elves and now firmly under his grasp.

As a side note, no, IMHO nothing of this will impact the Second Season. No one will inquiry about Halbrand/Sauron, the Elves will "heal the corruption" using the power of the Rings, the Elven Rings will not be corrupted, Galadriel - now more powerful - will restart her war against Sauron and... Wait, what about the other Rings of Power? The Seven and the Nine? Who will forge them now that Sauron is out of the bag? (contrary to the lore, where they were forged before the Three) I mean, either Celebrimbor will do it - which means that Galadriel will keep quiet on Sauron and be complicit even in the creation of the Nazgûls - or it will be Sauron the creator - which means that the elves will alert no one about accepting certain gifts.

It is entirely possible that everything will be solved by a single line in a "prologue": "We healed the elves using our three Rings, but before we could warn anyone Sauron forged other sixteen Rings that he gave away as gifts, then ruling them all via a Master Ring; the situation was now truly grim..." - no other answers given.

I think you are trying to read too much esoteric lore from what's clearly shoddy screenwriting.

The whole last scene with Elven Rings was precisely - forging of Three in secrecy, just rather than by cunning of Celebrimbor it was done by everyone obey Gal because she's strong female character.
Sauron was already gone. His previous works with Celebrimbor - done between scenes shall be tainted - Elven rings only controlable by One Ring - probably forged in the finale of Season 2.

(Also to be precise - Elves used Three for 10 years between their forging, and Sauron putting One Ring on his finger.)

And her not telling is just another shoddy storytelling - it's not to make her Darth Galadriel - but more to create future tension between Elves, when her omission (out of shame I guess) will be revealed and other Elves stop trusting her. And I think Sauron just leaving without destroying further is meant to prolong his antivillain arc - second season is meant to be Sauron centric. (And of course direct attack on forge full of Elves, presumably, could not necessarily be successful - I'm not sure Sauron here is powerful enough to risk direct attack on basically whole Eregion.

QuoteIt is entirely possible that everything will be solved by a single line in a "prologue": "We healed the elves using our three Rings, but before we could warn anyone Sauron forged other sixteen Rings that he gave away as gifts, then ruling them all via a Master Ring; the situation was now truly grim..." - no other answers given.

Solutions: lesser Rings of Power were done in finale o season 1 - but sort of of-screen in scenes where Celebrimbor is working with Halbrand.
Celebrimbor will give Three to most powerful Eldar leaders - Galadriel, Gil-Galad - and start working on lesser rings. Lesser rings shall fall into Sauron hands when he attack Eregion, and maybe Ring of Fire, and it's gonna be Sauron who give Ring to Gandalf, but Gandalf will manage to grasp the Ring from under Sauron influence. Or maybe Gandalf gonna be possessed by Sauron, but restored after Sauron's fall - allowing him to resume Istari job. I mean - all options are on table.

TBH I'm not sure to what degree lore of 3 - 7 - 9 is explained in LOTR appendixes, maybe they had to invent shit up because original lore was banned from them

Quote from: Wrath of God on October 22, 2022, 05:45:28 PM
I think you are trying to read too much esoteric lore from what's clearly shoddy screenwriting.

For sure the writing is shoddy - however, it is also deeply inconsistent with itself.

Quote
The whole last scene with Elven Rings was precisely - forging of Three in secrecy, just rather than by cunning of Celebrimbor it was done by everyone obey Gal because she's strong female character.

There is no secret: Sauron was about to help to forge two of them - and I don't see why he should help to forge two Rings if he hasn't his own convenience. Gal only asks for a third. Nothing, in the way they are forged, changes, because no one knows that Sauron had a direct hand in their creation. And, no matter how one tries to put things, nothing changes the fact that Sauron could just have killed everybody and be done - or the absurdity that Galadriel keeps quiet on the fact that Halbrand is Sauron (and no one asks her about him).

Quote
And her not telling is just another shoddy storytelling - it's not to make her Darth Galadriel.

I don't think that even they understand anymore what they are putting on screen.

QuoteThere is no secret: Sauron was about to help to forge two of them - and I don't see why he should help to forge two Rings if he hasn't his own convenience. Gal only asks for a third. Nothing, in the way they are forged, changes, because no one knows that Sauron had a direct hand in their creation. And, no matter how one tries to put things, nothing changes the fact that Sauron could just have killed everybody and be done - or the absurdity that Galadriel keeps quiet on the fact that Halbrand is Sauron (and no one asks her about him).

Everybody just forgot that Halbrand, King of South was a thing
I would merely disagree with Sauron being able to kill everybody - he is not that buff. I'd like to remind - he was slain with One Ring on his power, exponentialy enhancing his inherent Maia power by two Children. (I mean very likely his power levels gonna be vastly incoherent in this story but that';s another thing).

So I think it's gonna be revealed Celebrimbor and Sauron forged some lesser rings before as experiments (and those will be given) or Sauron gonna forge them alone (still may be intrigue about someone learning it and trying to stop him) and Galadriel omission due to shame will be brought back as unecessary source of drama and tension.

But I think even in most straight analysis of what happened - I don't think we get Galadriel. We get Galadriel that was tricked, and then was to ashamed to admit it to other Elda - kinda in line with her brash proud character in show. What's really dumb is not Galadriel not admitting it - but all the other Eldars forgetting Halbrand, and just taking advices from her.

And what's extremely idiotic is fact that whole Celebrimbor-Sauron cooperation that should be pivotal element of story took like 3 minutes.

It's hard to tell how much of this is spectacular incompetence and how much is just shitty writing. I know, it sounds like I'm repeating myself. But it's not just that they're writing a lousy story, it's that they're not even consistent in the story itself.

L. Ron Hubbard's Battlefield Earth is not a great book, but it is reasonably internally consistent, by comparison.