Quote from: Wrath of God on October 23, 2022, 05:31:00 AM

QuoteThere is no secret: Sauron was about to help to forge two of them - and I don't see why he should help to forge two Rings if he hasn't his own convenience. Gal only asks for a third. Nothing, in the way they are forged, changes, because no one knows that Sauron had a direct hand in their creation. And, no matter how one tries to put things, nothing changes the fact that Sauron could just have killed everybody and be done - or the absurdity that Galadriel keeps quiet on the fact that Halbrand is Sauron (and no one asks her about him).

Everybody just forgot that Halbrand, King of South was a thing
I would merely disagree with Sauron being able to kill everybody - he is not that buff. I'd like to remind - he was slain with One Ring on his power, exponentialy enhancing his inherent Maia power by two Children. (I mean very likely his power levels gonna be vastly incoherent in this story but that';s another thing).

"Sauron killing everybody" in this series shouldn't be intended as a magical battle. He could have taken Galadriel's dagger while she was KOed and cut her throat. Then he could have gone to Celebrimbor to "continue the work", stab him in the back, steal the mithril and run away. It was that simple, unless Sauron wants for the Rings to be forged and for Galadriel to be alive. Remember, he was helping the elves in the creation of the Rings - they were even clueless before he arrived, because Celebrimbor didn't know the concept of "alloy"! Since Galadriel doesn't reveal that Halbrand is Sauron, I can simply can't see how they will change something done under his supervision, and thus how the Rings can be anything good.

To be clear, I don't think that we will have "Darth Galadriel", only that this is what they showed: an irremediable descent into the dark side via her blind desire for vengeance. In this series Galadriel is the very first do admit that there is a darkness in her: it is so strong that she even fears to go back to Valinor. Adar tells her "You are looking for Sauron? Look in a mirror". Sauron basically tells her the same! Will they respect what they have openly written? No.

I've avoided this thread since I had also previously avoided the series. However, my girlfriend wanted to see it, so I just finished watching season one with her.

In general, my impression is that they're trying to recreate Game of Thrones as a phenomenon using Second Age Middle Earth, though bearing in mind I haven't seen Game of Thrones. But they're trying for a grim-n-gritty epic vibe. I don't feel there's anything progressive about the general storyline, but to try to appeal to more liberal viewers, they tossed in some female leads and some black side characters.

Quote from: Reckall on October 22, 2022, 12:09:19 PM
So, there is only one way for the end to make sense: Sauron somehow corrupted the three Elven Rings. Galadriel not only is the sole responsible for the return of Sauron (!!) but she is also now devoured by a "righteous darkness" which will only expand once she gets a Ring. There is literally no coming back from this except via a final sacrifice and death (which is impossible, unless Amazon somehow has the rights to kill Galadriel): it is a very bad retelling of the story of Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker. Given these assumptions, it is easy to see why Sauron just went away: the elves and now firmly under his grasp.

Under the premises of the show, if Galadriel had halted making the rings, then the elves would all have to leave Middle Earth to return to Valinor. Yes, that is nowhere in Tolkien, but it's what they've chosen. Galadriel doesn't want to leave, because she wants to kill Sauron. So I think her intent is to use the weapon of the enemy against him.

Yes, she is sliding into darkness - but I suspect it is walking into a trap because she thinks that getting through the trap is the only way to beat the enemy. I don't see much parallel to the Anakin Skywalker storyline, because Galadriel has been intent on killing Sauron from the start. I suspect there may be parallels to the Doctor Yueh storyline in Dune - someone who hates their enemy so much they are willing to betray their allies for a chance to kill him.

I think the writers still plan to keep consistency with the Lord of the Rings films (though obviously not the books). So Galadriel will eventually be redeemed, Isildur will cut off Sauron's fingers, Elrond will unsuccessfully take him to Mount Doom, etc. But a bunch of unexpected stuff may happen along the way and most of the characters have an unknown future.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 23, 2022, 12:57:30 PM
It's hard to tell how much of this is spectacular incompetence and how much is just shitty writing. I know, it sounds like I'm repeating myself. But it's not just that they're writing a lousy story, it's that they're not even consistent in the story itself.

L. Ron Hubbard's Battlefield Earth is not a great book, but it is reasonably internally consistent, by comparison.

So obviously Rings of Power needs more camera tilt? 

Quote from: Omega on October 27, 2022, 02:56:25 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 23, 2022, 12:57:30 PM
It's hard to tell how much of this is spectacular incompetence and how much is just shitty writing. I know, it sounds like I'm repeating myself. But it's not just that they're writing a lousy story, it's that they're not even consistent in the story itself.

L. Ron Hubbard's Battlefield Earth is not a great book, but it is reasonably internally consistent, by comparison.

So obviously Rings of Power needs more camera tilt? 

I said the book, not the godawful movie.

I still wonder if Travolta was a double agent and encouraged Scientology to waste money on that dumpster fire.

But yeah. Not only is RoP a poor story, it's not even consistent internally, which is even more jarring.

Quote from: jhkim on October 26, 2022, 02:30:07 PM

Quote from: Reckall on October 22, 2022, 12:09:19 PM
So, there is only one way for the end to make sense: Sauron somehow corrupted the three Elven Rings. Galadriel not only is the sole responsible for the return of Sauron (!!) but she is also now devoured by a "righteous darkness" which will only expand once she gets a Ring. There is literally no coming back from this except via a final sacrifice and death (which is impossible, unless Amazon somehow has the rights to kill Galadriel): it is a very bad retelling of the story of Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker. Given these assumptions, it is easy to see why Sauron just went away: the elves and now firmly under his grasp.

Under the premises of the show, if Galadriel had halted making the rings, then the elves would all have to leave Middle Earth to return to Valinor. Yes, that is nowhere in Tolkien, but it's what they've chosen. Galadriel doesn't want to leave, because she wants to kill Sauron. So I think her intent is to use the weapon of the enemy against him.

This, however, is the very reason why Sauron should simply have killed Galadriel and destroyed any means for the elves to forge the Rings. As I said, the only reason for Sauron to allow the forge of the Elven Rings is that he, somehow, will control them.

And, as I said, this will not happen. What I just wrote, literally, never entered the mind of the scriptwriters.

Quote
Yes, she is sliding into darkness - but I suspect it is walking into a trap because she thinks that getting through the trap is the only way to beat the enemy. I don't see much parallel to the Anakin Skywalker storyline, because Galadriel has been intent on killing Sauron from the start. I suspect there may be parallels to the Doctor Yueh storyline in Dune - someone who hates their enemy so much they are willing to betray their allies for a chance to kill him.

In line of principle I agree with you. However, both Anakin and Galadriel are actually manipulated by the local Evil Baddie(tm) and believe in a Greater Good(R) reachable only after "touching darkness" (an open fixation for Galadriel). Sauron even explains to Galadriel why she is the sole responsible for his return (in a scene worth of Ellery Queen).

Quote
I think the writers still plan to keep consistency with the Lord of the Rings films (though obviously not the books).

Amazon Studios is contractually obliged to prove that this show will never reach the LotR films. They, literally, have to prove that RoP and the films are not happening in the same universe. This led originally to the death of Celeborn - now corrected in a pickup shot where Galadriel says that he is MIA (Why she isn't looking for her husband? Dunno, I guess not even they do).

So, maybe Elendil and Gil-galad will survive, or it will be Galadriel who will cut Sauron's finger (with Isildur picking up the One Ring). Anyway, they must do something big and clear that will break any continuity with the films.

Quote
So Galadriel will eventually be redeemed, Isildur will cut off Sauron's fingers, Elrond will unsuccessfully take him to Mount Doom, etc. But a bunch of unexpected stuff may happen along the way and most of the characters have an unknown future.

The problem that I see is that Galadriel is beyond redemption - except via the classic "act of redemption ---> death". I don't think that these guy are realising the place they are in. The result will be an aberration.

Anyway...

Quote from: Reckall on October 27, 2022, 03:25:52 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 26, 2022, 02:30:07 PM

Quote from: Reckall on October 22, 2022, 12:09:19 PM
So, there is only one way for the end to make sense: Sauron somehow corrupted the three Elven Rings. Galadriel not only is the sole responsible for the return of Sauron (!!) but she is also now devoured by a "righteous darkness" which will only expand once she gets a Ring. There is literally no coming back from this except via a final sacrifice and death (which is impossible, unless Amazon somehow has the rights to kill Galadriel): it is a very bad retelling of the story of Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker. Given these assumptions, it is easy to see why Sauron just went away: the elves and now firmly under his grasp.

Under the premises of the show, if Galadriel had halted making the rings, then the elves would all have to leave Middle Earth to return to Valinor. Yes, that is nowhere in Tolkien, but it's what they've chosen. Galadriel doesn't want to leave, because she wants to kill Sauron. So I think her intent is to use the weapon of the enemy against him.

This, however, is the very reason why Sauron should simply have killed Galadriel and destroyed any means for the elves to forge the Rings. As I said, the only reason for Sauron to allow the forge of the Elven Rings is that he, somehow, will control them.

Quote from: Reckall on October 27, 2022, 03:25:52 PM
The problem that I see is that Galadriel is beyond redemption - except via the classic "act of redemption ---> death". I don't think that these guy are realising the place they are in. The result will be an aberration.

As I see it, there's way too many unknowns to say that there is only one possible reason. Given that it only has to be consistent with itself, there a wide range that it can do so. Sauron evidently believes that the elves making the rings is ultimately to his advantage. However, there are many possible ways that he could think it is to his advantage. For example, maybe there is a chance that the elves could make peace with the dwarves and get more mithril, and having the rings means they won't try as hard for that.

From what I've seen so far, I doubt the writers will end up giving a good explanation of it all. But in theory, there are a lot of ways this could resolve and still be internally consistent.

From my perspective, Galadriel hasn't done anything terribly dark so far - with the worst being not telling the others about what she learned from Sauron. Even that might be revealed as her memory of those events having been wiped by magic, for example. A lot of protagonists have done much darker stuff than she has.

QuoteThis, however, is the very reason why Sauron should simply have killed Galadriel and destroyed any means for the elves to forge the Rings. As I said, the only reason for Sauron to allow the forge of the Elven Rings is that he, somehow, will control them.

And, as I said, this will not happen. What I just wrote, literally, never entered the mind of the scriptwriters.

I mean - he will. One Ring have power over Three despite them not being tainted directly. Like superior remote control.
So Sauron may think he can re-take Rings anyway - and elves having Rings is a chance to control them (that part will fail obviously).

QuoteSo, maybe Elendil and Gil-galad will survive, or it will be Galadriel who will cut Sauron's finger (with Isildur picking up the One Ring). Anyway, they must do something big and clear that will break any continuity with the films.

I think Sauron not being Vhailor from Planescape will be enough. And Gil-Galad and Elendil defeating him properly.

QuoteThe problem that I see is that Galadriel is beyond redemption - except via the classic "act of redemption ---> death". I don't think that these guy are realising the place they are in. The result will be an aberration.

I'm not really sure why? Redemption by death is kinda shitty motive - it's not how it works. Galadriel on this level did nothing so outright evil that would make her irredeemable, and going bit overboard in hunting Sauron is not nearly that evil. Really darkest thing she's done in entire first series was not admitting to Celebrimbor and Elrond that Halbrand was Sauron.

Pure speculation. But what could happen is that Galadriel just saves telling everyone for some big dramatic moment.

Another option is that someone else finds out she knows and blows the lid off her plans. And she will have to go through some phony baloney redemption arc to get back everyones respect.

They can also just pull the old, what you saw wasnt what you thought you saw gag. That wasnt the real Galadriel! That was a, uh, um, WERE-Galadriel. Dont ask. Its an elf thing. 

I could fix this.
Season 2 Episode 1.
Celeborn returns, takes Galadriel over his knee and gives her a good spanking.
He then takes away her armor (and shoes of course) and orders her to "make him a sammich".

Quote from: Trond on October 27, 2022, 09:50:32 PM

I think I'd rather push tacks into my eyeballs that watch this show.