The Movie Thread Reloaded

deadDMwalking · March 14, 2019, 10:36:14 AM

Quote from: Pat;1078937Flixster hasn't existed for a couple years. Captain Marvel is on a number of the streaming sites that replaced it, like Fandango Now and Vudu, but only as a preorder.

I'm sorry that I was unclear. I did not watch Captain Marvel on Flixster. I use Flixster to find movie times and I used the app to review the movie. Flixster uses Rotten Tomatoes for critic and audience reviews to determine if a movie is 'Fresh'. Currently, Captain Marvel is 'certified Fresh' with a 62% audience score and a 79% critic score. I saw the audience score as low as 34% on opening day, driven by people who had not seen the movie. After seeing the movie the first time on Friday, in a theater, with an audience that clearly broadly enjoyed the movie, I registered in order to post my own review (my first ever). The movie was quite enjoyable and I went to see it again the next day, this time with my wife and three children (age 11, 7, and 3). My wife and the two older kids quite enjoyed the movie; the three year old enjoyed being AT the movies, but probably didn't care much, but she was well-behaved and I'm glad we included her.

As far as a movie 'villain', I don't think this movie suffers for not having a clearly defined bad guy that can be punched in the face. I think it's easy to believe that bad things happen because a bad person does bad things and punching that bad guy in the face will solve that problem. The truth is that a lot of bad things happen because well meaning people take actions that they believe are good and either have unintended consequences or they have convinced themselves that they're supporting the 'greater good'. Civil War dealt with similar themes regarding personal responsibility versus societal oversight. In the movie there were a series of objectives and a series of obstacles; the fact that it wasn't a single bad-actor pulling the strings didn't bother me at all.

Pat · March 14, 2019, 11:55:42 AM

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078992I'm sorry that I was unclear. I did not watch Captain Marvel on Flixster. I use Flixster to find movie times and I used the app to review the movie. Flixster uses Rotten Tomatoes for critic and audience reviews to determine if a movie is 'Fresh'.

Ah, my bad. I didn't realize a Flixster app was still around. They no longer exist as a company, and my experience with them (online movie locker) is they shut their doors and closed. Always odd how different exposure combined the complexity of mergers and acquisitions can lead to very different perspectives on things as fundamental as whether a company is still around. I suppose as long as it's bought and turned into a brand, nothing ever really dies.

Spike · March 16, 2019, 10:58:44 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat;1078647100% agree with Spike. The quality of a fiction highly depends on the antagonist.

Its extremely important for GMs because your players need to strive against something they respect / fear / hate and that requires time and crafting to make the villains worthy of the players' actions and their character's sacrifices.

To be fair, as I understand it the Antagonist in Captain Marvel is 'The Patriarchy', and leaving aside external concerns that is a perfectly valid choice of antagonists. I understand Absalom, Absalom* is a classic example of a story with no true antagonist, with the family struggling against nature.

Conflict is what is important, so what I said about starting with the villain is actually of limited use if viewed as literal.

The problem with CM's use of the Patriarchy is not that The Patriarchy is boring or that it doesn't exist, its that Marvel doesn't struggle against it. Its a one sided fight of a hypercompetent Ur-woman against a weak and feckless concept trying to surpress her inner awesome, or so it seems to me**. Conceptually it isn't a problem with the antagonist, its a problem with the hero (ie: She never struggles, never grows, never has that moment of darkness, blah blah...), but bringing it full circle, if the role of The Patriarchy was more fully fleshed out, then CM would have potentially had these issues to solve.

* Haven't seen/read it. I'm totally burnishing my intellectual cred with some name drops that mean nothing. Pimpin'!

**I haven't seen it, so I'm speculating based on second hand reports. Look man, its a 100 mile drive for a character I never cared for in a film I didn't expect and the main actress doesn't even want me to see it, so... yeah.

JRT · March 16, 2019, 11:10:11 AM

Quote from: Spike;1079345To be fair, as I understand it the Antagonist in Captain Marvel is 'The Patriarchy'...

Not sure why you think that, since as presented it's really about an alien race that basically kidnapped her, and had used propaganda against another alien race to make them look like the bad guy.

I saw nothing in this movie that really emphasized anything resembling "patriarchy". I think you might be listening too much to the people critiquing the movie without seeing it, or those praising it and reading into things that aren't there.

Spike · March 16, 2019, 11:26:27 AM

Quote from: JRT;1079347Not sure why you think that, since as presented it's really about an alien race that basically kidnapped her, and had used propaganda against another alien race to make them look like the bad guy.

I saw nothing in this movie that really emphasized anything resembling "patriarchy". I think you might be listening too much to the people critiquing the movie without seeing it, or those praising it and reading into things that aren't there.

I'm not sure why you are invested so much in making this point, as I clearly stated that there is nothing wrong with a conceptual antagonist even 'The Patriarchy'.

As to your inability to see past superficial conflict to the thematic conflict at the heart of the film, that I can't help you with. Perhaps you have a vested reason to not see it in this case? Perhaps you need some giant conan looking motherfucker with "The Patriarchy" emblazoned across his chest in order to visualize conceptual enemies?

Perhaps you'd care to disagree that 'The Weather' could be an antagonist in Absalom, Absalom? No? Then I assume your disagreement is emotional and not rational.

JRT · March 16, 2019, 12:26:41 PM

Quote from: Spike;1079351I'm not sure why you are invested so much in making this point, as I clearly stated that there is nothing wrong with a conceptual antagonist even 'The Patriarchy'.

Hah, "invested"? I simply wrote two sentences in response. Hardly what I'd call an investment.

You said "To be fair, as I understand it the Antagonist in Captain Marvel is 'The Patriarchy'" First of all, you said as you understood it. But you didn't see the movie.

My comment corresponded to whether or not you've seen the movie at all, or if you're just listening to the critics and second hand reports who think it is some sort of SJW fantasy, and basing your critique of the movie on that aspect rather than the actual viewing--in which case I simply provided what I consider a correction, as well as a question as what caused you to think that was the theme.

Warboss Squee · March 16, 2019, 02:57:58 PM

The enemy in CM is Imperialism.

More specifically, western imperialism, with the Kree leadership all being white and the Skrulls being broken into native tribes that refused to being conquered.

JRT · March 16, 2019, 08:01:13 PM

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1079366The enemy in CM is Imperialism.

More specifically, western imperialism, with the Kree leadership all being white and the Skrulls being broken into native tribes that refused to being conquered.

I agree with imperialism, maybe not necessarily Western though--probably more based on the Roman Empire style. The Upper Class Kree are blue, not the white skinned ones (or black ones)--they are kind of the minority. Though that's not obvious in the movie--it's more the MCU in general.

jhkim · March 17, 2019, 01:36:45 PM

(Minor spoilers - nothing significant)

Quote from: JRT;1079408I agree with imperialism, maybe not necessarily Western though--probably more based on the Roman Empire style. The Upper Class Kree are blue, not the white skinned ones (or black ones)--they are kind of the minority. Though that's not obvious in the movie--it's more the MCU in general.

In terms of narrative, I'd agree that the enemy is collectivist militarism and imperialism. Inherently, I don't see that the Kree are any more symbolic of the U.S. than of, say, China or Japan. I think it plays fine in China, picturing the Kree as the imperialist Japanese. Tibetans could easily see China in the Kree. etc.

Calling it the Patriarchy is interesting - because I think many people would see that - which I'm sure the film-makers are aware of. The Kree are not in the slightest portrayed as sexist. Their military are integrated, and no mention is made of Captain Vers being a woman as unusual. Her superior officer / mentor is male, but the Supreme Intelligence is portrayed as sexless - and appears to Vers as a woman. Meanwhile, her allies on Earth are mostly men.

A key point of the film is when Carol, in montage, remembers a series of points in her childhood of being knocked down and getting up again. I think this is taken by audiences as a scene of female empowerment. In the montage, young Carol is seen as all girls. But there's nothing inherently gendered in it, other than Carol being female.

By contrast, Wonder Woman is a much more gendered movie - inherent from its source material. It's very much about matriarchy vs patriarchy - given the all-female Paradise Island contrasted with the sexist WWI era setting.

deadDMwalking · March 18, 2019, 11:42:25 AM

Quote from: jhkim;1079494In the montage, young Carol is seen as all girls.

I'm sure all girls (and probably all boys) can relate to trying to move past failure, but I don't think they were trying to imply that all girls are like Carol - she very clearly pushes the envelope in terms of achievement, which is part of what makes her worthy to be a hero.

Captain America did more with this - obviously the heroes have super powers, the question that leads to is whether they're worthy of them. Thor also directly confronts that. I think Captain Marvel realizing that 'getting up again' is what makes you a hero is important to her arc, but it is not specifically a commentary on girls versus boys - it just happens that a lot of people telling her that she couldn't 'play with the boys' were for obviously sexist reasons, and Thor or Captain America didn't deal with those specific problems. But Captain American certainly had a similar experience with more physically powerful 'bullies'.

Omega · March 27, 2019, 09:41:56 AM

While I am not interested in Alita: Battle Angel. It is at least a chucklefest to watch the SJWs attack it now since it seems to be outperforming their chosen savior Captain Marvel.

One recent accusation on a newsfeed was that Alita was doing so well because "Men are sexist and Alita has a totally sexualized body!" which anyone with even one brain cell to rub together can tell isnt true. She has a fairly normal figure and doesnt even have any genitalia! Really. WFT SJWs? And yet Captain Marvel gets a pass...

jhkim · March 27, 2019, 02:45:18 PM

Quote from: Omega;1081081While I am not interested in Alita: Battle Angel. It is at least a chucklefest to watch the SJWs attack it now since it seems to be outperforming their chosen savior Captain Marvel.

One recent accusation on a newsfeed was that Alita was doing so well because "Men are sexist and Alita has a totally sexualized body!" which anyone with even one brain cell to rub together can tell isnt true. She has a fairly normal figure and doesnt even have any genitalia! Really. WFT SJWs? And yet Captain Marvel gets a pass...

The point about outperforming seems off base. Here's the numbers from BoxOfficeMojo -

Captain Marvel (BoxOfficeMojo)
Budget: approx. $152M
Domestic: opening weekend $153M, second weekend $68M (-55% drop), third weekend $34M (-49% drop)
Foreign: opening weekend $303M, total to date $590M

Alita: Battle Angel (BoxOfficeMojo)
Budget: approx. $170 million
Domestic: opening weekend $33M, second weekend $12M (-57% drop), third weekend $7M (-41% drop)
Foreign: opening weekend $31M, total to date $316M

Totals aren't quite comparable since Captain Marvel came out a month later and is still playing, but Alita has made $400M worldwide, while Captain Marvel has already made $914M worldwide and seems likely to pass a billion. Alita has performed well in Asia and came close to Captain Marvel there, but Captain Marvel has performed roughly five times better in the U.S. and made more than twice as much overall. I think the Asia vs U.S. split seems obvious given the material for each, and Captain Marvel has clearly done much better overall.

Ratman_tf · March 27, 2019, 03:43:40 PM

I haven't seen either! Do I win anything?

HappyDaze · March 27, 2019, 05:44:36 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1081127I haven't seen either! Do I win anything?

Extra money in your pocket right now and the opportunity to watch them as "new releases" when they show up on On Demand in a couple of months.

deadDMwalking · March 27, 2019, 06:44:28 PM

I took my 11 year old to Alita. The movie was okay. I don't think Alita was sexualized - there were questions about whether a human could love someone with a mechanical body. Ultimately the movie fails to resolve its central premise; it essentially establishes that a sequel is required.

Having seen both, I think Captain Marvel was the better movie and had much broader appeal.

$900 Million+ compared to $400 Million would make a premise of 'Alita outperforms Captain Marvel' difficult to fathom.