The massacre/tragedy this past week was caused by one kid with a few guns.

 I've tried to avoid some of the newscasts about this - but it gets difficult.
 What audio bits I've heard from that thing that he sent to NBC leads me to believe that the shooter never grew up.

 There was some textbook article, newspaper column or commentator that I heard years ago define childhood into adulthood this way :  "The moment that you start to become an adult is when you realize that you're capable of killing yourself and others , but decide not to."  
  (I might been around 20 or 21 myself when I first heard or read that thought)

 The key there is deciding NOT to.  All the time. People do things that make you violently angry ?  It happens, but you can choose not to get violent.

 Chronologically that guy may have been the age of an adult - but maturity level he was still somewhere between 11 and 14.  No one caught that in time about him.

This stuff will happen sometimes.  You can't predict it.

 There was a hero in all of that - the professor who was a Holocaust survivor and protected the lives of his students.

- Ed C.

Yes, that professor was a hero. 77 years old and blocked the door so his students could escape, getting shot in the process.

God, the guy survived the nazis to be gunned down by a punk with a couple pistols.

Anyway, if there's a heaven, I'm sure it rolled out the red carpet for that old man.

Quote from: Dominus NoxYes, that professor was a hero. 77 years old and blocked the door so his students could escape, getting shot in the process.

God, the guy survived the nazis to be gunned down by a punk with a couple pistols.

Anyway, if there's a heaven, I'm sure it rolled out the red carpet for that old man.

It smacks of Divine Plan doesn't it?  Surviving the horror of the holocaust so he could live in Israel, and fight in their army and survive, all for the sake of saving half a dozen lives?

Quote from: joewolzIt smacks of Divine Plan doesn't it?  Surviving the horror of the holocaust so he could live in Israel, and fight in their army and survive, all for the sake of saving half a dozen lives?

I can't tell if you're being cynical or sincere, but, yeah, it kind of does.  Butterfly Effect and all, that one man was where he was needed most to someone at that very moment.  And who knows what's going to come of it?

Back to the original post, yeah, emotionally, the murderer was stunted.  He was also mentally ill, so it's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg scenario as to what led to his emotional stunting, but in all likelihood, his illness occurred at that critical time that you describe where a person makes the intellectual and emotional transition into adulthood.  He had some serious impediments in his way, and it's tragic that he didn't have better support to keep him from taking the route he did.

!i!

Our entire society has put off becoming an "adult" for so long that this isn't terribly surprising. People 22 and 23 years old are referred to as "children" by the grief-mongers and counselors. Please. People USED to have to grow up, but these days it dosn't seem much of a requirement. Hell, we're all still playing games! Think a man in his 30s or 40s or older, back in the 1950s, played more than Bridge once a week? I doubt he was runing around the neighborhood playing cowboys and indians with other 40 year olds.

So, yes, he was immature, but that's his family's and society's fault, not his. He never HAD to grow up.

(puts on flame-retardant suit)

Quote from: WerekoalaSo, yes, he was immature, but that's his family's and society's fault, not his. He never HAD to grow up.

(puts on flame-retardant suit)

No need for the suit, I think.  It's one of the dangers of affluence.

!i!

Quote from: WerekoalaSo, yes, he was immature, but that's his family's and society's fault, not his. He never HAD to grow up.

All three were at fault.

Society and the family probably gave up on him, which is criminal, but in the end the decision was still his.

Quote from: ElectroKittyAll three were at fault.

Society and the family probably gave up on him, which is criminal, but in the end the decision was still his.

I'll go with that. All three were at fault, him primarily (after all, he pulled the trigger), but the rest are culpable. Especially those doctors in December who diagnosed him as a threat to himself and did nothing (really) about it.

Quote from: WerekoalaI'll go with that. All three were at fault, him primarily (after all, he pulled the trigger), but the rest are culpable. Especially those doctors in December who diagnosed him as a threat to himself and did nothing (really) about it.

Don't forget to blame the family of Frances Farmer and the likes of them who made it so that involuntary committments are incredibly difficult to obtain in most states in the US without the individual in question actually attempting to harm himself or others.

The more you look into a situation like this, the stickier the wicket becomes.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaDon't forget to blame the family of Frances Farmer and the likes of them who made it so that involuntary committments are incredibly difficult to obtain in most states in the US without the individual in question actually attempting to harm himself or others.

Involuntary commitments can often do more harm than good.

QuoteThe more you look into a situation like this, the stickier the wicket becomes.

Very true.

Quote from: joewolzIt smacks of Divine Plan doesn't it?  Surviving the horror of the holocaust so he could live in Israel, and fight in their army and survive, all for the sake of saving half a dozen lives?

Surviving the nazis only to be killed by a whacked out kid with a pistol, it's just kind of like surviving the black plague and then dieing of....mumps.

You know, I was never inclined to use the term 'Sticky Widget' particularly, though I might have.

Knowing what a Sticky Widget actually is sorta means I never want to. Weird. I don't have this hang up with other terms with well understood origins (Home Run, anyone?).


Oh. On topic:  Thirty people vs 1 guy with a couple of guns, I know strategians that killed themselves to get those kinds of odds in their favor. What? Was Cho blessed by Ares or something?

Leaving politics out of it as much as I can, but our culture, in addition to treating people like children long after they should be adults, also seems to encourage passivity in the face of danger.    Yeah, I'm the one that blames the victims. I blame them for allowing themselves to be made into victims.

Notice my count. Its deliberate, not a convienent rounding or a lack of hard numbers.

I don't absolve Cho by any stretch.  Roast the fucker. I am continually facinated by the tendency of these assholes to kill themselves.  Bonus points: I don't have to pay for a lifetime of incarceration after spending three years income on a showtrial.  What do we do with rabid animals? We put them down.  Cho may have walked and talked as a man, but he was an animal.  And the closest you will get to levity from me on the topic: We need a god damn Gom Jabbar these days.  Cue news story regarding the NASA shooting today.

Gom, fucking, Jabbar.

Quote from: ElectroKittyInvoluntary commitments can often do more harm than good.



Very true.

I agree with your statement.

BTW, I'd like to nominate you for "Cutest Avatar" honors.

Quote from: Dominus NoxI agree with your statement.

BTW, I'd like to nominate you for "Cutest Avatar" honors.

Awwww, spank you very much!

Quote from: ElectroKittyInvoluntary commitments can often do more harm than good.

Very, very true.  The Frances Farmer situation being one of the more famous examples.  On the flip side, sometimes they do more good than harm.  It's all in the application of care.

Quote from: SpikeI don't absolve Cho by any stretch. Roast the fucker.

Here's a story I trundle out every couple of years.

I once worked with a medical director of a community mental health agency who was very clear on his rather surprising opinion of "the insanity plea".  He felt that anyone who committed a crime must be held accountable for their actions.  Being mentally ill is certainly an extenuating circumstance and must be taken into account during sentencing, but it in no way absolves a person of a crime that he committed.  As harsh as that may sound, the medical director in question was possibly the most sensibly compassionate person I ever met in the field.

!i!