Quote from: jhkim on June 23, 2024, 11:35:17 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 22, 2024, 10:10:33 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 22, 2024, 09:40:04 PMOK, I agree with this. That's why I was skeptical of the suggestion that the Jedi younglings lived with their families and only commuted to the Jedi temple, and/or that they weren't using real light sabers. Those seem like a stretch based on what was shown in the movies, more like the latter than the former.

I feel like calling the prequel Jedi wrong for their behavior is more like the former. I'm talking about judging the actual things they do on-screen.

My fanwankery is no better or worse than anyone else's fanwankery.

What we are shown in the films is that infants can be taken into the Jedi temple, trained at a very young age with extremely dangerous weapons, and the Jedi teachings result in healthy, balanced adults who are responsible with their Jedi powers.
It's when Qui-Gonn goes against tradition that we are shown a character who goes off the rails and falls to the dark side.
As crazy as those ideas may seem, any critique of the Jedi must start by accepting those premises, or we're arguing about fanwankery.

This is not what is shown in the films. Anakin is far from the first time a Jedi has fallen to the Dark Side. Count Dooku had a normal Jedi adoption and training, and he fell to the Dark Side. In general, falling to the Dark Side is implied to be a significant danger to any Jedi.

Training Anakin at 9 years old (instead of the usual cutoff at 6) was an exception, but it is not implied that this was the first time in a thousand years that any rule was broken in Jedi training. Qui-Gon might have suggested the idea of training him, but the Council as a whole endorsed it.

The stated history is that the Jedi as a whole have remained generally loyal and thus stayed in power for a thousand years, so falling to the Dark Side was only a small percentage of Jedi. However, staying in power for a thousand years isn't a moral quality. The Assyrian Empire lasted for 1500 years, for example. I'm fine with saying that the Jedi were roughly as moral as the Assyrians.

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Lucas' intent was to say that the Force was out of balance in Qui-Gon's time. Qui-Gon openly says to the council that he thinks Anakin is destined to restore balance to the Force, and they don't deny that it is out of balance.

It's not clear that training Anakin was the wrong move. If Anakin had been rejected, Palpatine still could have found him and trained him. If so, then Anakin's children might have been raised to the Dark Side, and the Empire would have been a long-lasting dynasty instead of a brief blip in galactic history. Even if Anakin was killed, it is an open question what would have happened to Palpatine's bid.

We are shown in PM that the Jedi originally refused to train Anakin, and two prominent issues were his age and his attachment to his mother. They relented at the end of PM, but note that it was to let Obi Wan take Anakin as a padawan. Which was Qui Gonn's work-around to circumvent the Jedi council. And the idea that that decision was wrong was reinforced by his attempt to rescue Shmi in AOTC that resulted in the violent murder of a tribe of Sandpeople. (Maybe they deserved it, but dark side and all that) A moment master Yoda could feel via the Force all the way at Coruscant. Even Anakin himself knew he was fucking up. "I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this."

The films are pretty clear that Anakin was not suitable for Jedi training, and in the issue of his downfall, the Jedi are complicit by not sticking to their guns and refusing to train Anakin. The films say it outright, they demonstrate it in events.

We don't know the details of Dooku's falling to the Dark Side, so he is useless as a comparison point.

Well making a new universe/setting with lesbian space witches as the good and true of the universe is going to have about as much appeal as a turd in a punch bowl.  Degenerates can not create they must subvert and pervert that which already exists.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 24, 2024, 06:25:48 AMWell making a new universe/setting with lesbian space witches as the good and true of the universe is going to have about as much appeal as a turd in a punch bowl.

Unless you make a...certain kind of movie... if you take my meaning.

There's nothing wrong with lesbian space witches. Focusing on that plot point gives the opposition ammunition to dismiss criticism as istaphobia. Nevermind that the opposition has created a self-fulfilling prophecy where they're actually making otherwise non-prejudiced people repulsed by the mere presence of characters who tick any boxes. https://youtu.be/rcJ7LOCUszk

Quote from: yosemitemike on June 23, 2024, 11:06:56 AMIt's pushed by the kind of people who see any camaraderie between men and immediately assume that they must be gay.  I have seen this movie several times. 

Thats been a thing since at least Star Trek came out and during the 80s and 90s got especially bad with people trying to claim ANY show with two guys in it was gay representation somehow.

Theres always going to be people like that and they make everyone else just minding their own business look bad.

Quote from: jhkim on June 23, 2024, 11:35:17 AMQui-Gon might have suggested the idea of training him, but the Council as a whole endorsed it.

The council endorsed it because Qui Gon threatened to do it even if they said no.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 23, 2024, 12:40:57 PMAt the end of the day, it's easier to just make up a new universe with more consistent rules. Corpos should stop taking existing IPs and twisting them into something they're not. We need to retire old IPs and make new ones. Reform copyright law too, while we're at it. Fans should be free to make new IPs recycling material from old IPs, and revive abandoned IPs, rather than locking it in copyright jail.

They want to reboot a setting. Effectively ye ol edition treadmill. But dont want to lose all the fans. Unlike edition treadmills who could care less.

The new MLP series tried to do both and botched it so bad that the CGI part looks to be cancelled. They want a sequel. But dont want a sequel.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2024, 01:19:46 PMAnd the idea that that decision was wrong was reinforced by his attempt to rescue Shmi in AOTC that resulted in the violent murder of a tribe of Sandpeople. (Maybe they deserved it, but dark side and all that) A moment master Yoda could feel via the Force all the way at Coruscant. Even Anakin himself knew he was fucking up. "I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this."

No. The problem was the Jedi kept ignoring very clear anxiety and stonewalling Anakin from investigating. At the very least they could have sent someone else to go check. Its not like they dont have alot of apprentices with nothing better to do.

Instead they ignore the problems and bring about their own destruction. And the Jedi were already so far off track that they could not even sense Palpetine point blank. Not even Yoda. That alone says alot about how far they fell well before Anakin.

Quote from: Omega on June 24, 2024, 08:48:47 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 23, 2024, 12:40:57 PMAt the end of the day, it's easier to just make up a new universe with more consistent rules. Corpos should stop taking existing IPs and twisting them into something they're not. We need to retire old IPs and make new ones. Reform copyright law too, while we're at it. Fans should be free to make new IPs recycling material from old IPs, and revive abandoned IPs, rather than locking it in copyright jail.

They want to reboot a setting. Effectively ye ol edition treadmill. But dont want to lose all the fans. Unlike edition treadmills who could care less.

The new MLP series tried to do both and botched it so bad that the CGI part looks to be cancelled. They want a sequel. But dont want a sequel.

It's really stupid. I think creators should be free to make reboots. That doesn't invalidate the previous iterations. Indeed, I find reboots vastly preferable to whatever the hell corpos are doing now.

Quote from: Omega on June 24, 2024, 08:53:35 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2024, 01:19:46 PMAnd the idea that that decision was wrong was reinforced by his attempt to rescue Shmi in AOTC that resulted in the violent murder of a tribe of Sandpeople. (Maybe they deserved it, but dark side and all that) A moment master Yoda could feel via the Force all the way at Coruscant. Even Anakin himself knew he was fucking up. "I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this."

No. The problem was the Jedi kept ignoring very clear anxiety and stonewalling Anakin from investigating. At the very least they could have sent someone else to go check. Its not like they dont have alot of apprentices with nothing better to do.

This just brings up my question of how responsible the Jedi order are or should be for addressing the personal problems of all their members. Do they serve the Republic or do they serve their own personal interests?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolinereid/2024/06/23/disney-forced-to-reveal-unequal-pay-on-star-wars-show-the-acolyte/

Because of course they pay their women employees less than the men.

I'm going to retire to my fainting couch.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 24, 2024, 09:55:31 PMhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/carolinereid/2024/06/23/disney-forced-to-reveal-unequal-pay-on-star-wars-show-the-acolyte/

Because of course they pay their women employees less than the men.

I'm going to retire to my fainting couch.

Maybe they are paying based on ability/expertise.  You don't expect a diversity checkbox hire to pull the same weight as an actual expert, do you?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 24, 2024, 07:59:33 AMThere's nothing wrong with lesbian space witches. Focusing on that plot point gives the opposition ammunition to dismiss criticism as istaphobia. Nevermind that the opposition has created a self-fulfilling prophecy where they're actually making otherwise non-prejudiced people repulsed by the mere presence of characters who tick any boxes. https://youtu.be/rcJ7LOCUszk

  Except for lots of people there is a problem with it.  That is reality, some people do not want a very miniscule world view/life style presented as good and true.  Plenty can overlook it...but they are OVERLOOKING it and letting it slide...not loving it. Put that in a supposed main stream show ON A FAMILY channel, and you are starting off in the red.  Toss in how crap the shows writing/production/acting/leadership is and you are going deeeeep into the red.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 25, 2024, 02:43:52 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 24, 2024, 07:59:33 AMThere's nothing wrong with lesbian space witches. Focusing on that plot point gives the opposition ammunition to dismiss criticism as istaphobia. Nevermind that the opposition has created a self-fulfilling prophecy where they're actually making otherwise non-prejudiced people repulsed by the mere presence of characters who tick any boxes. https://youtu.be/rcJ7LOCUszk

  Except for lots of people there is a problem with it.  That is reality, some people do not want a very miniscule world view/life style presented as good and true.  Plenty can overlook it...but they are OVERLOOKING it and letting it slide...not loving it. Put that in a supposed main stream show ON A FAMILY channel, and you are starting off in the red.  Toss in how crap the shows writing/production/acting/leadership is and you are going deeeeep into the red.

And they are going to accuse critics of istaphobia no matter what the criticisms actually are.
May as well mock them. The whole lesbian space witches angle is pure identity politics drivel that's going to age like milk in the sun.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2024, 01:19:46 PMThe films are pretty clear that Anakin was not suitable for Jedi training, and in the issue of his downfall, the Jedi are complicit by not sticking to their guns and refusing to train Anakin. The films say it outright, they demonstrate it in events.

In the big picture, it's obvious that the Jedi mishandled Anakin, but in the muddled plot, it is not explicit what they were supposed to do. In the OT, it was explicit that training a Jedi even over 18 years old (i.e. Luke) isn't too late, and further that Vader himself was redeemable - even after years in the Dark Side.

Quote from: Omega on June 24, 2024, 08:53:35 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2024, 01:19:46 PMAnd the idea that that decision was wrong was reinforced by his attempt to rescue Shmi in AOTC that resulted in the violent murder of a tribe of Sandpeople. (Maybe they deserved it, but dark side and all that) A moment master Yoda could feel via the Force all the way at Coruscant. Even Anakin himself knew he was fucking up. "I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this."

No. The problem was the Jedi kept ignoring very clear anxiety and stonewalling Anakin from investigating. At the very least they could have sent someone else to go check. Its not like they dont have alot of apprentices with nothing better to do.

Instead they ignore the problems and bring about their own destruction. And the Jedi were already so far off track that they could not even sense Palpetine point blank. Not even Yoda. That alone says alot about how far they fell well before Anakin.

Agreed, Omega. Even after decades with Palpatine, Anakin was drawn back from the Dark Side. The prequel Jedi stuck to a hard-line "no attachments" philosophy, telling him to just not care about his mother and never fall in love -- but in contrast, Luke's strategy was caring for your family and friends, and believing in them was successful.

Luke was successful in this. I draw the conclusion that the best outcome would have been if someone had done this decades earlier.