Quote from: Bren;925333

• Because the incest taboo is culturally pretty strong so if you don't want it to be incest squicky the two siblings should have a different sort of feeling in the force than "the lovers." On some level they should intuitively know that they aren't attracted in that way.

So the reaction is about the taboo not about it not making sense. The level of mistake is at the level of out-of-universe reasons, not not making sense in-universe. Oops accidentally scratched the ignorance - that part doesn't even seem negative to me. Like if someone accidentally made a plot change that meant some character was intrinsically gay, instead of by choice, and Michelle Bachman got offended. I get that this level does bother other people.

Quote

• Or maybe not, if the author wants to go there for some weird reason. And that is supposing it's not a continuity error based on Lucas changing stuff (who shot first?) after the fact and just making shit up as he goes along without a very strong a tie to continuity. Like he does with a lot of other shit.

Well ya I don't disagree. As I wrote, it was pretty obvious at that point, and made it double-obvious that Vader being Luke's father was an afterthought too. But the kiss didn't break in-universe logic unless you believe that everyone would always never kiss your brother even if you didn't know it was your brother (which I don't). What was the most annoying part of them suddenly being siblings, to me, was the obviousness of it being a new idea trying to be a cool one, and that it felt like it made Obi-Wan and Yoda out to be withholding shits and silly people or at least that the whole "oh the universe is doomed unless we have particular people level up their Force powers" which is annoying to me because again, I care about the action aspects and don't like they're importance undermined, in this case by asserting that what really matters is some stupid and changing situation about single saviors and their level of unrelatable inherited Force-specialness, which tends to make me not care and hate the universe/situation.

Lucas' change to Greedo shooting first is crazy bullshit to me. To me, the version of Han that let Greedo shoot first and somehow didn't die WOULD have gotten simultaneously surprised by two groups of scum on his own ship, except if I were GM'ing, he would probably have been killed by Greedo or shortly thereafter doing to too often doing things in ways that get people killed. And yes, I think Lucas' continuity in Ep 1-3 and some of the changes he made in the specialized versions of 4-6 were ridiculous BS.

And yet, I don't think Lucas' latter day BS is anywhere near on the level of Abrams' level/episode 7 BS, where everyone in the universe would have had a front row seat to Alderaan exploding, and the Death Star would not have needed to move to the Yavin system to attack it, nor would the rebels have had to have a plan or need to find the Death Star, nor would Vader have to let the Falcon escape the Death Star, nor would anything have to have any reason to happen, or anyone have any real reason to have any sensible reason or requirement to do anything, because it's all just "now this happens, because we're copying a format from another movie, and/or JJ thinks it's fun or cool and doesn't see any reason to even pretend to have a reason why or how it makes any real sense, or if he does mention a reason, there is no bar to how much it makes any sense".

Quote

• And because it's fiction - lighthearted space opera in fact - not reality or anything that is supposed to closely resemble reality. And the author knows...or maybe he doesn't...when he scripts the kiss "for luck" in film 1 and the romantic rivalry between Luke and Han for Leia that the two are actually brother and sister.

No, being fiction, and even being lighthearted space opera, is not a carte blanche license to flaunt reality in all ways. In fact, I would say that fiction remains compelling and interesting involves the degree to which it is still relevant to the actual human experience, including have things other than the fantastic elements make some level of sense. However, what things people notice and are bothered by apparently varies quite a bit. Not that I care in a way that would have me actively want to have siblings doing that - I just don't think the continuity objection to it is the same sort of thing as the violations of physical time/space/logic in Ep 7 - rather these sister-kiss issues are matters of 20th Century USA Earthling taboo/audience-expectation, which is literally astronomically different.

QuoteI think you are way overthinking The Force Awakens. Are parts dumb? Sure they are. There's dumb stuff in all the films which just seems dumber the more films that are made and the more times we see really similar dumb stuff. I try not to focus too much attention on continuity and reasonable behavior in my space opera. I find it's much more enjoyable if I look at the big picture, the special effects, and the emotional thrill ride. Which is why prequels 2 and 3 (with the wooden romantic acting of the "stars") are so much less fun than the romantic scenes in the original films ("I love you." "I know.").

If I'm overthinking, I'm overthinking in my efforts to understand and express what were visceral reactions to stuff not making any sense to me the instant I saw them.

I was trying not to focus too, but that effort was blown away again and again, as was my ability to be emotionally involved except in disappointment and annoyance.

The prequels... well they have two or three levels of suck, for me. My usual action nonesense issues, and various disappointments in the script/direction/acting. I tried really hard to re-watch them before Ep 7, going so far as to watch the heroic re-script/editing of them into Japanese with new-script subtitiles, but I couldn't survive it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;925250Odd that Lucas the revisionsit, hadn't taken out the kiss scene and replaced it with an awkward CGI scene of some sort before he scuttled off.

Indeed. Then we could have had LEIA KISSED FIRST! (twice) T-shirts.

Who exactly did people think Yoda meant in Empire when he said "There is another?".  Empire Strikes Back foreshadows Leia being a Skywalker in the same movie as the Love Triangle scenes.  Therefore, not a complete RotJ invention, therefore, if you think so, you're provably full of shit.  

Carry on.

Quote from: CRKrueger;925936Who exactly did people think Yoda meant in Empire when he said "There is another?".  Empire Strikes Back foreshadows Leia being a Skywalker in the same movie as the Love Triangle scenes.  Therefore, not a complete RotJ invention, therefore, if you think so, you're provably full of shit.  

Carry on.

They originally were going to have a whole other character be his twin sister, not Leia.

Gary Kurtz on the original plan: http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/gary_kurtz_reveals_original_plans_for_episodes_19_80270.asp

Brackett's original screenplay: http://julianperezconquerstheuniverse.blogspot.com/2011/05/leigh-bracketts-original-1978-empire.html

I think it is painfully obvious that she was not intended to be his sister in that film. Equally obvious Vader was not originally intended to be the father. I think the twists add more than they take away from the film. I just don't think the trilogy was terribly consistent (not that consistency is all that important in a flash-gordenesque adventure film).

Quote from: CRKrueger;925936Who exactly did people think Yoda meant in Empire when he said "There is another?"

Luke's sister. Leia.  

QuoteEmpire Strikes Back foreshadows Leia being a Skywalker in the same movie as the Love Triangle scenes.

The love triangle isn't foreshadowed in ESB, it first occurs in A New Hope. Notice the scene with Han and Luke in the Falcon's cockpit where Han says something like, "Do you think a girl like her and a guy like me..." And Luke quickly jumps in with "No."

The romantic triangle is sort of continued in ESB, though tonally it's pretty clear that Leia is more interested in Han and her kissing Luke is a ploy to make Han jealous. All that behavior is straight out of pulp serials and 1930s-40s films.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;925940They originally were going to have a whole other character be his twin sister, not Leia.

Gary Kurtz on the original plan: http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/gary_kurtz_reveals_original_plans_for_episodes_19_80270.asp

Brackett's original screenplay: http://julianperezconquerstheuniverse.blogspot.com/2011/05/leigh-bracketts-original-1978-empire.html

I think it is painfully obvious that she was not intended to be his sister in that film. Equally obvious Vader was not originally intended to be the father. I think the twists add more than they take away from the film. I just don't think the trilogy was terribly consistent (not that consistency is all that important in a flash-gordenesque adventure film).

Yes and I would like to point out for the sake of reference that Lucas was the one who wrote in the changes if I remember right.(just so all the facts are in play unless I'm wrong and miss-remembering something.)

Quote from: Skarg;923069The Plunkitt review of Ep VII is on YouTube. I think it may be longer than the film itself.

The first HOUR is actually not about Ep VII, but is about Internet commenters, the annoying Circle Theory posted by some fan, and about Lucas selling to Disney and about the wave of pro-Prequel puff on the Internet that mysteriously and stupidly appeared after the sale to Disney. Though mostly irrelevant to Ep VII, I agreed with most of it and there were some sound bite conclusions that perfectly matched my attitude to the prequels, the stupid fan theories of Lucas grand plan genius, and the beneath-contempt "the prequels are as good as the OT" idiocy. There's one sound bite that also applies to my feelings about most crappy sci fi films and some games and books, which I'll have to go back and find so I can quote and link to it instead of descending into explaining to people why I'm annoyed by stupid lazy forced formulaic storytelling in films and games.

When he actually gets to the Ep VII review, he repeats the obligatory observation that it's an ANH clone, thankfully pretty quickly, and then makes various points, some of which match my own (The "Resistance", the WTF seeing Starkiller Base blow up planets from other star systems), though he doesn't match my particular outrages exactly, but close enough. There's a bit ranting about the "diversity" casting, and a couple bits I don't really agree with (e.g. he says he wanted some romance... wat?). I like that he called out the baton vs saber fight as annoying/silly.

And of course there was a disturbing amount of random misogyny and "I'm a serial killer" jokes and it concludes with an attempt to completely gross out everyone with literal projectile diarrhea combat followed by an offer of food. . . . at least that "achieves" a level of disrespect for crappy film-making that resembles my level of disappointment. ;-)

I can't make up my mind about who is more pathetic: The Red Letter Moron (a grown man who can't follow the plot of movies aimed at 8 to 12-year-old boys and makes hour-long videos about this, plus rambling on about humping cats and mutilating women in his basement) or his equally dimwitted admirers. After reading Red Letter Media's Episode I Review A Study in Fanboy Stupidity, I think it's a tie.

Quote from: Elfdart;926016I can't make up my mind about who is more pathetic: The Red Letter Moron (a grown man who can't follow the plot of movies aimed at 8 to 12-year-old boys and makes hour-long videos about this, plus rambling on about humping cats and mutilating women in his basement) or his equally dimwitted admirers. After reading Red Letter Media's Episode I Review A Study in Fanboy Stupidity, I think it's a tie.

Is that a 100 page response to an online movie review?

Quote from: Elfdart;926016I can't make up my mind about who is more pathetic: The Red Letter Moron (a grown man who can't follow the plot of movies aimed at 8 to 12-year-old boys and makes hour-long videos about this, plus rambling on about humping cats and mutilating women in his basement) or his equally dimwitted admirers. After reading Red Letter Media's Episode I Review A Study in Fanboy Stupidity, I think it's a tie.

I think you are the most pathetic for reading that 109 page crapfest in its entirety. Goddamn man, if you want to abuse yourself just go get drunk - you will lose less sanity.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;926124Is that a 100 page response to an online movie review?

That's the one.

Quote from: jeff37923;926138I think you are the most pathetic for reading that 109 page crapfest in its entirety. Goddamn man, if you want to abuse yourself just go get drunk - you will lose less sanity.

Reading is seldom a chore, let alone an ordeal. But listening to the Red Letter Moron drone on for an hour or more about his failure to grasp a Saturday matinee movie and fucking his pets should be listed as a war crime under the Geneva Conventions. Anyway, the article was the best point-by-point expose of a bullshitter since John Scalzi got his nose rubbed in it.

So people have an issue with Han Solo's death and general characterization in general?

Did you not watch the first third of the goddamn movie that opens with a Star Destroyer fast dropping a platoon of assholes onto not-Tatooine to whack some dirt farmers then suddenly forget to actually matter when the Falcon, sans working hyperdrive mind you, leaves Jakku after dealing with....what...three TIEs? That are reported to have missiles?

Sure you can argue that the SD was damaged by the escape of Poe and Finn, but the damn thing isn't even shown in orbit. Until after Solo gets his ship back. When it's suddenly back orbiting planet plot twiddling it's damn thumbs.

That's the kind of lazy writing Abram goes for. Ignore plot holes because hey the audience is to stupid to nitice, right?

Quote from: CRKrueger;925936Who exactly did people think Yoda meant in Empire when he said "There is another?".  Empire Strikes Back foreshadows Leia being a Skywalker in the same movie as the Love Triangle scenes.  Therefore, not a complete RotJ invention, therefore, if you think so, you're provably full of shit.  

Carry on.

Han of all people was one guess fans had back then. Reason? He used Lukes lightsaber. Theres also his piloting skills for example.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;926240So people have an issue with Han Solo's death and general characterization in general?

Did you not watch the first third of the goddamn movie that opens with a Star Destroyer fast dropping a platoon of assholes onto not-Tatooine to whack some dirt farmers then suddenly forget to actually matter when the Falcon, sans working hyperdrive mind you, leaves Jakku after dealing with....what...three TIEs? That are reported to have missiles?

Sure you can argue that the SD was damaged by the escape of Poe and Finn, but the damn thing isn't even shown in orbit. Until after Solo gets his ship back. When it's suddenly back orbiting planet plot twiddling it's damn thumbs.

That's the kind of lazy writing Abram goes for. Ignore plot holes because hey the audience is to stupid to nitice, right?

Yes. I find most of TFA to be annoying illogical (far more than the OT, and even more than the prequels) - I just didn't rant about all of the silliness.

So yeah, the initial scenario is also silly and illogical in the ways you mention, and in others. Looking to CAPTURE a droid and get data off it? Ok, calling in an airstrike on a desert village at the same time you send in your own soldiers to shoot everything at random sounds really effective at accomplishing that, right?

And speaking of the Star Destroyer, why at the other planet does it retreat when Leia shows up in a super-ugly small flying mobile home with a few X-Wings? Again, after not finding the droid? Is it really explainable by their leader being a manboy not wanting to talk to his mom and having found a rare cool human female to abduct?

Even if you buy that, there is also the question of why teenagers (or young adults with the emotional maturity and behavior of teenagers) seem to be the highest officers in the One Direction or whatever the new bad guy army is called... oh gawd...

Quote from: CRKrueger;925936Who exactly did people think Yoda meant in Empire when he said "There is another?".  Empire Strikes Back foreshadows Leia being a Skywalker in the same movie as the Love Triangle scenes.  Therefore, not a complete RotJ invention, therefore, if you think so, you're provably full of shit.  

Carry on.

We had a running joke in school that the other Jedi was R2-D2 because in Star Wars: A New Hope when Luke was going to buy that other droid instead of it, R2-D2 used The Force to cause its motivator to explode. Force using droid.

Quote from: jeff37923;926490We had a running joke in school that the other Jedi was R2-D2 because in Star Wars: A New Hope when Luke was going to buy that other droid instead of it, R2-D2 used The Force to cause its motivator to explode. Force using droid.

I hear so many ideas in random Internet threads that seem more interesting/fun/rational than much of what they actually put in the films... I like this one. :-)