Quote from: Justin Alexander;874042Your big mistake here is in equating plot to character motivation.

Hmm... that's odd. I distinctly recall writing separately about plot and character motivations, and then weaving them together to explain how they can or should support one another.

Well, your refutation of my point is off to an excellent start.

QuoteThe plot may be "Find Luke Skywalker", just like the plot in A New Hope was "Destroy the Death Star". But that's not the motivation for Rey and Finn for the majority of the film any more than it's the motivation for Luke and Han.

Yup. Dealt with exhaustively in my last post. However, since you brought up 'A New Hope', and Han and Luke, I can bring them into the analysis a bit further.

If we agree, and for the purposes of expedition we will, that the plot of A New Hope is to "Destroy the Death Star", note how Luke's motivation (Rescue the Princess) and Han Solo's Motivation (Get PAID by the Princess) actually serve to reinforce the plot.  In order to fulfill their personal motivations they have to get to said Death Star, then escape it, princess in tow.  Once they do, they bring said death star to the Endorian Moon, where the rebel base is, Han Solo gets paid in fact.  Once the Death Star is following them to the rebel base it must be destroyed, and in very short order.

Contrast with the Force Awakens. If Finn follows his motivation (to 'escape the New Order'), he walks away from the plot by going with the random merchant mercenaries. If we allow his secondary motivation (Get into Rey's Pants) to become his primary, then what? Rey's Motivation is "Hang out on Jakku until the stars are cold dead cinders, or my parents come back for me... whichever is first"), which would subsequently remove her from the plot entirely, and taking Finn with her.

Note the contrast. In ANH, the motivations serve to push the plot forward. In TFA they retard it, and have to be ignored or circumvented by circumstance.

QuoteFor the first half of the film, the motivation of both Finn and Rey is "stay alive" (which manifests itself in different ways).

No. Rey's motivation is 'Stay On Jakku'. To whit, she refuses Han Solo's offer of a place on the Millennium Falcon, which she clearly wishes to take.  

I do concede it is Finn's motivation, however, which makes his refusal to join the Rebellion somewhat non-sensical. Finn is demonstrably not a coward except for that one scene, which exists entirely to create dramatic tension from nothing, which is the cheapest Dramatic Tension.  I'm reminded of Farscape (which I've been watching lately), when Aeryn Sun is confronted on the Command Carrier by her former friend/lover(?). Our Hero does nothing in the scene, the NPC is convienetly killed by GM Fiat when she randomly catches fire, and Aeryn Sun goes about her mission of rescuing the others.  Its fake tension. In Star Wars its because the character's actions don't line up with previous actions. In Farscape it is because the Hero does nothing to resolve the situation, its mere distraction. Yes, I know: A tangent, but man that scene has been bugging me for weeks!

QuoteThis begins to shift for both of them on Maz's planet when they receive their hero's calls: Rey literally runs from her call (which is now "find Luke Skywalker"), only to embrace it later in the film (when she summons his lightsaber instead of rejecting it). Finn also runs from his call (which is now "save Rey"), but turns it around pretty quickly when he sees Kylo Ren take her.

Don't you think a Heroic Call should come a bit earlier in the film?  From the point of view of the audience, Rey doesn't receive a heroic calling, she freaks out from having some weird vision and runs off, and her agency is temporarily derailed by being captured, so we can't judge her long term reaction.  

And seeing one of my big complaints with the film is how short a shrift Finn gets, the fact that his big 'heroic call' is when he's told he wants to run away, and then he does... well... yeah.

QuoteJJ Abrams claims it's just a delayed reaction from BB-8 retrieving the last part of the map.

Yes, we poor peons just can't understand his brilliant writing.  

See, the thing about competent writing is that the writer doesn't have to come in after the fact to lampshade his pointless ex machina moments like that.

QuoteMy guess is that Abrams is lying, and my more specific guess is that R2-D2 wakes up immediately after Rey reaches him.

Again: after the fact justifications do not make up for glaring plot holes and random convienently timed actions.

QuoteBecause he's got an active scanning program keeping an eye out for the Falcon. This is explicitly stated in the film.

And what? He was just hanging out in Jakku that day? Its also pretty explicitly stated he had NO IDEA where the damn thing was, which gives us the impression that for the last dozen or so years he's had this buzzer waiting in the background, and when it finally does go off he's all like 'Hey, CHewie? What is that noise? Whaddya mean is the Millennium Falcon alarm? We got one of those? Whaddya mean I set it?".

At my most generous its mere lamp shading the obvious fact that Han Solo is RIGHT FUCKING THERE for no reason at all .

QuoteWe're actually shown a typical day in Rey's life. It notably doesn't involve stealing the Millennium Falcon and evading multiple TIE fighters. I'm not entirely sure what in the film could have possibly led you to believe that this would be stuff she does every single day.

Now, its been about two-three weeks, but I am pretty damn sure the comment about there being an 'awakening' happens BEFORE all that tie fighter crap.

QuoteFirst: No Bothan spies are present or mentioned in A New Hope.

First: Mon Mothma disagrees.

Second: The Bothans bring the Rebellion information on the critical weakness of the Death Star.  Finn brings the Rebellion information on the critical weakness of the Starkiller.  

QuoteSecond: Finn continues playing a key role in the plot up to the moment he gets his back sliced open and goes unconscious for the last 10 minutes of the movie.

Being onscreen is not the same as playing a key role.   Aside from knowing all about the Starkiller from his crucial role as a former janitor, his single biggest moment is rescuing Po from captivity... though his apparent ineptness leads us to believe that Po would probably have done just fine on his own.  Note too that Po is a MINOR CHARACTER, regardless of how good a pilot he is. That's why his total screen time amounts to about five minutes, maybe ten if we're feeling generous.

Lets review just about every single non-Starkiller thing Finn does after rescuing Po.  Hmm...

He doesn't help Rey against the scavengers 'stealing BB8', in fact she kicks his ass.

He doesn't really help when she uses the Millennium Falcon (a freighter) to outfly a bunch of Tie Fighters. After a token kill his gun is disabled, and she has to maneuver the entire ship to line up his shot for him.

On Han Solo's ship he doesn't do anythign about the rival gangs of criminals or the space monsters. In fact, Rey rescues him.

On Mara he runs away. Later he fights and kills a couple of stormtroopers alongside Han Solo and Chewbacca, and the trio are collectively rescued by Princess-General Leia. Flash but no bang.

After his big plot moment, where he reveals that he IS the Bothan Spy Network, at least for this film, he also reveals he is the only stormtrooper janitor. Seriously: They have Droids for that.  

Rey Escapes on her Own.
Solo and Chewie damage the Thermal Exhaust Port.
Chewie Shoots Emo-Vader.
Rey Fights Emo-Vader to 'death' while Finn lies dead in the snow.
PO, a GOD DAMN NPC blows up the Starkiller.

QuoteHere's where I can't argue with you: Pretty much every single thing involving Starkiller Base is nonsensical and/or poorly handled.

Ah, there is hope for you yet, young padawan.

QuoteIf you absolutely needed to keep the Starkiller Base stuff in the film, what I would have done is NOT destroy Hasnian Prime midway through the film. Instead, the Resistance becomes aware of the threat and launches a mission at the end of the film to prevent them from using their one-shot weapon to take out the Republic capital. The back half of the film could then have been used to clearly communicate the stakes involved before the weapon is fired, and then a desperate assault would be launched in an effort to blow up the weapon before it's fired...

... and, importantly, it would fail. The plucky heroes don't destabilize the weapon at the last minute. It fires. The Republic capital is destroyed with the audience fully understanding the implications of that as it happens.

Not only would that have given the opportunity for a more coherent narrative, the inversion from ANH and ROTJ would have made the inclusion of a planet-killer more acceptable in general: It would be playing on one of the motifs of the saga instead of just repeating it.

SEE!!!!

There is the fun and tragedy of bad filmmaking.  While I've never read Octavia Butler (I have recently acquired two of her books, however...), she's long been a minor hero of mine due to her comments about becoming an author. When she watched a bad file she realized first that she could do better, and second that someone got paid to be that bad!

I love looking at the raw material of a terrible film and seeing all the little ways it could have been better, even great.

To be honest, I actually noted that Lawrence Kasadan (sp?) was a co-writer, and my little dig much earlier about the Progressive Stack comes from JJ Abrams deliberate inclusion of Ideology over story.  I could almost feel the flip from one writer to the second when Rey took over the plot from Finn.  In his rush to make a strong female lead he steamrolled right over the black guy, and wound up making a character so competent they are actually unlikeable.... to the point where the indecipherable Chewie would have been a preferable lead character.

Quote from: Spike;874867

QuoteFirst: No Bothan spies are present or mentioned in A New Hope.

First: Mon Mothma disagrees.

:hmm: I could have sworn that clip was from Return of the Jedi not A New Hope.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;874043Po Dameron is shown physically bloodied with a torture droid floating in the background (which is more physical damage than we see either Leia or Han suffer from their torture sessions) before Kylo Ren comes in and says, "I'm impressed that the torturers couldn't make you talk, so now I'm going to rip the answers out of you."

And yet, to me the torture felt rushed and superficial, unreal and kind of off, like most of the rest of the film. Partly because even though I liked that Po Dameron felt semi-adult (while Rey, Finn, Kylo & Hux(? - trenchcoat Nazi leader manboy all seemed childish or adolescent at best), there isn't much with which to get to relate to him before he's already captured.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;874042...
If you absolutely needed to keep the Starkiller Base stuff in the film, what I would have done is NOT destroy Hasnian Prime midway through the film. Instead, the Resistance becomes aware of the threat and launches a mission at the end of the film to prevent them from using their one-shot weapon to take out the Republic capital. The back half of the film could then have been used to clearly communicate the stakes involved before the weapon is fired, and then a desperate assault would be launched in an effort to blow up the weapon before it's fired...

... and, importantly, it would fail. The plucky heroes don't destabilize the weapon at the last minute. It fires. The Republic capital is destroyed with the audience fully understanding the implications of that as it happens.

Not only would that have given the opportunity for a more coherent narrative, the inversion from ANH and ROTJ would have made the inclusion of a planet-killer more acceptable in general: It would be playing on one of the motifs of the saga instead of just repeating it.

This brilliantly illustrates the problems with the lazy apathetic plot in TFA. As Spike also pointed out, it lacks so much continuity that many parts could be changed for the better to make a much more interesting film, without really having to alter a whole lot of the rest of it, since there is so little continuity. The plot variant Justin just outlined would make the story massively more interesting and original, and wouldn't even have taken a lot of changing to make it so.

Quote from: Bren;874921:hmm: I could have sworn that clip was from Return of the Jedi not A New Hope.

Yanno....


I'm not to proud to admit that I only remember that line being in A New Hope. For the purposes of an internet argument I was too damn lazy to rewatch the film itself to verify.

Besides, that would have necessitated delaying the end of my Farscape Marathon.  Peacekeeper Wars was both better and worse than I remembered.

So.  Points to whomever claims definitive proof I guess. Doesn't change my original point. Bothan Spies bring Death Star Weakness, and pretty much just that... well, that and dying.

Finn brings Death Star Weakness... and makes with the dying! (Oh, Crap! Missed that!!! lol me!), thus Finn is just a new take on Bothan Spies.  

Death Star One or Two is actually irrelevant to the point.

I really do not see the problem with Maz having a giant sky hologram.  Normally it displays insipid stuff aggrandizing the ancient lady.  But for something as important as star systems blowing up, it displays the important news items of the day.

Quote from: Spike;874961Yanno....


I'm not to proud to admit that I only remember that line being in A New Hope. For the purposes of an internet argument I was too damn lazy to rewatch the film itself to verify.

Your memory is wrong. There are no Bothans in a New Hope. No Mon Mothma either. You can take my word for it or you can go look it up yourself. As the saying goes, the truth is out there.

Now in a New Hope princess Leia got the plans to the Death Star, downloaded the plans to R2D2, and the droid brought the details to the Rebellion so they could find a flaw. In Return of the Jedi, Bothan spies procured the location of the second Death Star, the plans, and inaccurate information about its lack of readiness. The implication is that Palpatine allowed the information leak but made sure the information on the state of readiness of the "fully operational battle station" was misreported as part of his trap for the Alliance and Luke Skywalker. Now your recollection being wrong isn't a huge mistake, but it does make me kind of doubt your recollection of the first movies in general and how well they hang together in particular.

In any case the argument about which of the Star Wars movies has the most plot holes doesn't particularly interest me. It's space opera. My expectation of plot is not all that high and that's exactly what Abrams delivered. I liked the movie, but then I came into it with very low expectations about everything.

Quote from: Old One Eye;874992I really do not see the problem with Maz having a giant sky hologram.  Normally it displays insipid stuff aggrandizing the ancient lady.  But for something as important as star systems blowing up, it displays the important news items of the day.

That's not half bad. Have you considered forwarding your resume to J.J. Abrams and company?

Eh.  We started with the Bothans, and now I see Mon Mothma isn't listed in IMDB as appearing in A New Hope. Oh well.  Of course, now I'm finding it impossible to find the briefing for the Battle of Yavin on youtube, which means I'm gonna have to watch the whole damn thing.

Luckily my critique doesn't hang on fine details of the older movies. Still.. I shall hang my head in shame for at least the rest of the day.

Quote from: Bren;875039That's not half bad. Have you considered forwarding your resume to J.J. Abrams and company?

To be a GM is to constantly train in coming up with half-assed explanations.  Spike sounds much more like a player than a GM.

From the script:

       It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships,
        striking from a hidden base, have won their first
        victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

        During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal
        secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon, the
        Death Star, an armored space station with enough
        power to destroy an entire planet.

        Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents, Princess
        Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of
        the stolen plans that can save her people and
        restore freedom to the galaxy...

Both ANH and ROTJ involve spies. In ANH "Rebel spies". In ROTJ "Bothan spies".

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen
from the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC,
General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace and
justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring
pilot on a secret mission
to Jakku, where an old ally
has discovered a clue to
Luke's whereabouts . . . .http://www.vulture.com/2015/12/star-wars-the-force-awakens-opening-crawl.html

To me, the ANH crawl makes sense, and explains the situation that is the focus of the film.

To me, the TFA crawl reads like an inept aping of the style without anything like the substance. It seems borderline incoherent. Why did the FIRST ORDER need Luke to leave to rise from the ashes of the Empire? What sort of a thing IS the FIRST ORDER, besides "sinister" (I'm still going with Boy Band & fan club)? Why is the FIRST ORDER, which apparently needed Luke to be missing before rising, not resting to try to destroy someone who's vanished? If the (new?) REPUBLIC is a republic, and the FIRST ORDER is not the Galactic Empire, why is there something called the RESISTANCE, and what sort of thing is that? Was this written by a non-native English speaker, or someone who just dislikes using appropriate words for things, or do they dislike things making sense so much that these things actually just make no real sense (I'm going with that last explanation until I hear of a theory that more closely fits the evidence I know of). Ok, so Leia's obsessed with finding Luke too, and has a "clue" and is sending one guy to follow up on it... wow that's really a meaningful setup for a galactic war, isn't it... not?

And then we see a Star Destroyer just happens to show up there too, and we never get any reason (do we?) how it showed up there at the same time, or how it is attacking the one desert hippie camp where Po Dameron is AT THAT MOMENT having a conversation with a plot-sacrifice character. And then they kill everyone there besides Po for no apparent reason except "bad guys". And then they try to capture a droid by destroying another random crappy desert settlement with TIE fighters, and blowing up ships it might be on, because that's a great way to capture a droid intact, right? Let the making-zero-sense flow through you...

Back to the point of comparison with ANH and ROTJ about how in those films it took stolen schematic data and plans: In TFA, they send Han & Chewie with two new adolescent strangers to improvise a way to make a weakness for what looks like 12 X-Wings. No intel needed, really, yuk yuk nudge wink.

Of course, in TFA it's also ridiculous how/why the Resistance base (?!) is also apparently a vital and immobile target. Also how again is its location known? Is it just my memory, or did they go from rescuing Han by tracking the Falcon themselves, to deciding to fly the "track me anywhere in the galaxy immediately" Falcon right to their secret base? Or if not, then how did the New Kids Empire know what to shoot their stupidly powerful weapon at? If they knew where it was before, why not just send a Star Destroyer, especially since the Resistance base seems to only have 12 X-Wings? Oh, and BTW, when the 12 X-Wings & Leia's ugly box-shaped landing craft showed up for some reason (?) to rescue the Falcon (?) why did Kylo and the New Kids Empire run away with a teenage girl captive, instead of either looking for BB8 (their supposed reason for being there), or stay and try to destroy the Resistance (surely a Star Destroyer and its squadrons of TIE fighters is a match for some X-Wings, and it's job is to fight them, no?)

All I see is nonsense that makes no sense, isn't even trying to make sense, and is probably actively trying to not make sense.

Skarg, you just reminded me of something I noticed, but haven't had a chance to verify.

All the opening crawls tend to reference main characters, both good and bad, and set up the overall plot.  Clearly, ANH doesn't reference Luke Skywalker in any way, or Han Solo, but it does reference both Leia and Vader (as I recall).

The Force Awakens seems to depart from this tradition by wibbling on for a bit about stuff happening but refusing to reference any character that is going to appear on screen by name.  Po is mentioned, but as the rebellion's greatest pilot rather than by name... and he's a minor character.

The New Order is name checked, as is Luke Skywalker, but the New Order isn't a person and Luke doesn't really appear in the movie in any practical sense (but, yes: he literally does appear in the film...).

Just a passing thought

Quote from: Spike;875043Still.. I shall hang my head in shame for at least the rest of the day.

An appropriate punishment. But now I'm sad because I didn't see your post until my next day.

well, by my local clock you get a good 26 more minutes of head hanging in shame from me, so it should all work out just fine.

Quote from: Skarg;875060All I see is nonsense that makes no sense, isn't even trying to make sense, and is probably actively trying to not make sense.

Maybe I can address some of your concerns.  Bear in mind that I have only watched the movie once, and I am heavily biased in favor of it to the point that I am in the final stages of putting together an Ep VII timeline campaign.

TFA is not a stand alone movie, but rather, is the seventh in what is probably the most widely known fantasy mileui in existence.  Everyone in the audience should know who Luke is, know what jedi are, know that Luke is the last jedi, and know that Star Wars universe is set up to require jedi or everything goes to shit.  Luke missing is a very big deal.  There are no jedi to maintain peace and order.  

While the opening cawl does not make it clear, the film makes it obvious that the First Order is what happens with Hitler Youth Camp left to its own to fester for 30 years.  Logically it would be in some bum fuck part of the galaxy nobody cares about.  The crawl lets us know they are growing in power, and so, probably control a decent little chunk of the galaxy.  They are evil space nazis, so local systems would presumably not like being swallowed by the growing First Order, hence the Resistance.  Or if you prefer modern references:  First Order = ISIS, Republic = USA, Resistance = Syrian rebels.

We don't know how Max von Sydow has Luke's map or how Po knows to meet with him.  Presumably the same way Po knows is the exact same reason Kylo Ren knew von Sydow has the map.  It was probably a race to get there first, which is why Leia would send her best pilot.  He was not quick enough.

Kylo Ren has the scavenger village slaughtered because he is a space nazi.  And he almost certainly knew Sydow was on the Resistance side, and the villagers were probably not mere villagers but were Sydow's henchmen.  Since Po is the best pilot in the Resistance, Kylo probably knew who he was and wanted to capture him for some intel.

I assumed the TIEs shooting at Rey and Finn had picked up BB8's signature and are precise enough shots to avoid blasting it to smithereens.  Not to mention they will want to blow up any spaceship so BB8 stays grounded.

There was a scene in the movie where they came up with a plan to attack the base.  Han and Chewie are pulp hero legends (Star Wars universe runs on pulp, as established over the prior movies), and Finn is probably the most trained ground soldier in the Resistance (the Resistance did not send Rey, she was captured).

The attack on Starkiller was hastily put together, so it only included the assets available to the Resistance right then.  All they had on hand attacked; they did not have a big fleet.  The First Order appeared to be skimpy on military assets as well.  We are on the fringes of the galaxy, not the big galactic centers.

There is no reason to believe any location in the movie is a secret.  The First Order probably knows the Resistance base's location and vice versa.  I cannot recall anyone saying either of the places were hidden.  The movie is where the war starts, nobody was actively at war prior to the movie.

The Resistance base is in the First Order's back yard actively causing them problems, and it has Leia who is also a galactic hero of the type who can galvanize the Republic to action now that she has proof of the First Order's  intentions.  Get rid of Leia and there is nobody to have the galactic-wide gravitas she can command.

By the by, her ugly box ship looked to be a converted B Wing - very much like there had been a galactic war with lots of military ships to be converted for civilian uses.

Quote from: Bren;874803What's his best work?

IMO, The first season of Alias. Filmwise, I'd actually go with TFA as his best work (although I'm generally a fan of everything he's directed except Into Darkness).

Quote from: Spike;874867If we agree, and for the purposes of expedition we will, that the plot of A New Hope is to "Destroy the Death Star", note how Luke's motivation (Rescue the Princess) and Han Solo's Motivation (Get PAID by the Princess) actually serve to reinforce the plot.

... except those aren't their motivations at the beginning of the film. Han Solo doesn't even know the Princess exists until halfway through the film. His motivation is just "get paid" until the last 5 minutes of the film, and it explicitly doesn't reinforce the plot.

QuoteContrast with the Force Awakens. If Finn follows his motivation (to 'escape the New Order'), he walks away from the plot by going with the random merchant mercenaries.

I become increasingly unconvinced that you've actually watched A New Hope. Quick question for you: What's the first thing Han Solo does after he gets paid?

Quote

QuoteFirst: No Bothan spies are present or mentioned in A New Hope.

First: Mon Mothma disagrees.

And now I'm 100% convinced that you have never seen A New Hope.

QuoteFrom the point of view of the audience, Rey doesn't receive a heroic calling

The only way they could have made the heroic calling more explicit is if they had Maz actually say, "This is your heroic calling."

QuoteAgain: after the fact justifications do not make up for glaring plot holes and random convienently timed actions.

I'm just not convinced by your theory that when Yoda says "there is another" in Empire Strikes Back that this is a "glaring plot hole" because it wasn't explained until Return of the Jedi.

QuoteNow, its been about two-three weeks, but I am pretty damn sure the comment about there being an 'awakening' happens BEFORE all that tie fighter crap.

Nope.

Quote from: Spike;875089The Force Awakens seems to depart from this tradition by wibbling on for a bit about stuff happening but refusing to reference any character that is going to appear on screen by name.

Skarg literally just quoted the scroll mentioning Leia. So have you now forgotten that she appears in TFA?

I'd normally assume not. But with all these basic factual errors you're making, it's hard to tell.

In any case, you've demonstrated remarkable ignorance of both A New Hope and The Force Awakens. I find it unremarkable now that your analysis of these films is so far divorced from what we see are on screen.