There's two things The Force Awakens did not do that I'm sure some people might miss:

1. No burp jokes.

2. Chewbacca didn't do a Tarzan impression at any point in the movie.

Quote from: Spike;873357Just for the record what are the major plot holes in A New Hope, from your perspective?  

I don't think either the old or new trilogy had significant plot holes, but they both have a bunch of tiny things that wouldn't fly in a more serious film. The conceit of it being a soap opera is what makes that all okay in my mind. I wasn't singling out A New Hope in particular. Many of the big inconsistencies in the first trilogy arise over the course of all three movies (like Luke and Leia kissing but being brother and sister and the whole deal with Vader obviously not being Anakin in the first movie).

But A New Hope has flaws too. First, everything in the plot is just so...convenient (kind of like some of your complaints about Force Awakens). I really noticed this the other night when I rematched it. Everything from Luke just having to go out and and getting attacked by Sand People when his family is getting murdered to the Death Star having that one little weak spot that blows the whole thing up to the empire (which knows fully about droids) just letting the escape pod go without shooting it down in the beginning of the film.

But there are bunch of little things too, like the whole way the rebels have to fly through that long trench dramatically to hit the exhaust port, but for some reason they can't just fly directly to that spot (both the trench and the areas beyond the trench appear to have defenses and turrets so I just never got that). R2-D2 has these little swivel caster wheels or something (whatever they are, they don't seem much better than the wheels on my desk chair), yet he can roam over sand dunes and all kinds of terrain (in Empire he even seems to get around swampland). They establish clearly in the dialogue that storm troopers are precise shots (and we see evidence of this as well during the dialogue) then they go on to miss EVERYTHING they shoot.

Why on earth Obi-Wan waited until a crisis when Luke was 19 to even start training him. This makes a little more sense if it is just a New Hope, but in light of the rest of the trilogy, it makes very little sense.

The whole plot thread where they put a homing device on the Millennium Falcon to track it with their actual death star seemed quite reckless. Plus Leia appeared to know they were tracking them so why would she allow the Falcon to lead the Empire to the rebels?

Most of these things have some after the fact logic to them. Here may be a few hand waves as well (but a hand wave really isn't much better than just not addressing it). When I watched The Force Awakens I saw a lot of convenient coincidences like I saw in A New Hope, and I saw some things that were not fully explained but clearly meant to be explained later. I didn't see anything that rose beyond the level of inconsistency and illogic of the first trilogy.

Flaws in the trilogy: There were plenty of logic flaws, oddly coincidental events and silly things that strained credulity in the whole trilogy. Why on earth does Luke Skywalker keep his real last name and why doesn't Vader seem to figure out who he is until the Empire Strikes back (the reason is they made it up as they went, which they viewer can discern). The Luke Leia Kiss, why does Han never pay Jabba the money at the end of A New Hope or before Hoth. He clearly has the money as his reward and it is just a matter of getting it to him. I realize they do address that in the beginning of Empire but it is such a hand wave and it just makes no sense that this really important guy in the rebellion wouldn't get a hand from them getting that money to the mob. The whole bit in Jedi with Han accidentally knocking Bobba Fett off the barge while he is blind? Ewoks taking out Storm Troopers with slings and rocks? The whole Tarzan howl from Chewey. Jedi ends with a second Death Star. I don't see this as a problem personally, but one of the big complaints about Force Awakens is it is basically a rehash of Jedi and A New Hope. But given that 2 out of 3 of the original trilogy films relied on the same plot device, I don't see the issue with employing it again.

QuoteAs for science: I agree science tends to get short shrift in Space Opera, including Star Wars.  

Where we disagree here however is that in A New Hope there was some decent handwaving at science as understood by the layman. The Deathstar having to round the gas giant in order to fire on its moon, for example, or Alderaan leaving an asteroid belt behind.

The Force Awakens couldn't be bothered with even that much, to its serious detriment.  TFA can't be bothered with the understanding of science of a reasonably sensible child. An entire galaxy is reduced to the orbit over Jakku/Tattoine.

I may have missed it or not understand what part of the film the galaxy bit refers to; can clarify that?

Between the two films though (a new hope and the force awakens) they both seemed to play just as loose with science. I mean there is no attempt to explain things like the way gravity works in the Death Star. Leaving an asteroid belt behind does't really strike me as all that sciency (it just seems like what a typical director would assume would happen when you destroy a planet). That is more just cause and effect being in play than any worry about science. I mean, I love star wars, but one of its great joys is it isn't beholden to scientific explanations. But if you read any Hard Science fiction most of the stuff that happened in star wars wouldn't fly (and a line here or there, or an occasional nod to science there, really doesn't do much to fix that).

But to me none of these things are a problem. The Star Wars movies are soap operas in space, with corny plots, a weird mix of humor and seriousness, stupid one liners, writing that is clearly making it up as it goes along, etc. But despite all that it is one of the most impactful series of movies I've eve seen. None of that drags it down because all of it is part of the core conceit and it gives primacy to emotion, cool plot twists, myth, and spectacular action/adventure.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873469The Star Wars movies are soap operas in space, with corny plots, a weird mix of humor and seriousness, stupid one liners, writing that is clearly making it up as it goes along, etc. But despite all that it is one of the most impactful series of movies I've eve seen. None of that drags it down because all of it is part of the core conceit and it gives primacy to emotion, cool plot twists, myth, and spectacular action/adventure.

I prefer the term space opera for shows set in space and horse opera for shows set in the American West. That goes double for Star Wars since it wasn't trying to sell any soap. And I have to say that the operatic conceit of the John Williams score with it's leitmotifs is what carries and delivers 90% of the film's emotional impact. Watching Star Wars without the music would be even less impressive than watching Jaws* without the music.


*I'm referencing a documentary that contrasted Jaws with and without the score. The difference was stunning. With music - tense and dramatic. Without music - just a mechanical fish.

Quote from: Bren;873474I prefer the term space opera for shows set in space and horse opera for shows set in the American West. That goes double for Star Wars since it wasn't trying to sell any soap. And I have to say that the operatic conceit of the John Williams score with it's leitmotifs is what carries and delivers 90% of the film's emotional impact. Watching Star Wars without the music would be even less impressive than watching Jaws* without the music.


*I'm referencing a documentary that contrasted Jaws with and without the score. The difference was stunning. With music - tense and dramatic. Without music - just a mechanical fish.

I agree 100% that Williams score carries most of the films emotional impact. That was honestly one of my only disappointments in the New Trilogy...the new Leitmotifs didn't stand out as memorably as the original ones (though that may just be a product of them being new and less familiar to my ear). I'm hoping on my second viewing the music resonates more.

Now that you mention it, while I vaguely recall hearing some thematic music that was new, it wasn't memorable in a leaving the theater with a lietmotif echoing in my head way. The themes from the original films, especially the first two really stuck in my mind after even a single viewing. But there was a lot going on action-wise in some scenes this time so I'll have to see what I notice about the music on rewatching.

Quote from: Spike;873336Ideally you should have to think to see those plot holes.

There are times when this movie slaps you in the face with them.


Of course, I am increasingly of the opinion that the original movies did so very well because they weren't trying to be light hearted kiddie fare.  Empire is fucking GRIM, and A New Hope actually took its sci-fi premise seriously, which was pretty unique for the era.  Sure, the science is shoddy, with amazing amounts of handwavium scattered over the landscape.

But The Farce Awakens doesn't even bother with the Handwavium, much less science... shoddy or not.

Exactly.

There just seems to be a surprisingly (to me) large number of people who are not sensitive to continuity problems (or even not making sense), even very intelligent ones like BedrockBrandon. But for people who do notice, it can be a big deal. For me, I have little or no ability to ignore serious continuity problems - they detonate my ability to follow a story, unless it's a dream sequence, surreal universe, animal antics cartoon, or parody/wacky comedy.

I'm so glad you're here, Spike. I was about to go on a crazed rant, and now it can at least be a lot shorter. ;-)

Quote from: Spike;873354... Compared to this newest Star Wars the difference in tone is palpable, and to the detriment of us all. Even the five year olds, who are ill served by treating them as incapable of caring.

Yes! I was 9 in 1977, and appreciated the bejeezus out of the seriousness. I still appreciate it. I can still buy into all of Episode IV, and I am a very hard-to-satisfy fellow.

Quote from: Spike;873357...The Force Awakens couldn't be bothered with even that much, to its serious detriment.  TFA can't be bothered with the understanding of science of a reasonably sensible child. An entire galaxy is reduced to the orbit over Jakku/Tattoine.

Exactly. And having everything relevant to the plot (Jakku system, the New Republic capital system, the forest/lake/bar planet system, and Starkiller Base system) be jammed into the same effective action space, it screws up expectations for the whole franchise. Now instead of being in an enormous galaxy, it makes nearly zero difference what star system you are in - both sides just know what's going on in everyplace relevant immediately, can go there and destroy planets anywhere relevant immediately.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873469...
I may have missed it or not understand what part of the film the galaxy bit refers to; can clarify that? ...

So, in A New Hope, when the Falcon flies from Tatooine to Alderaan, it may seem convenient that they run into the Death Star. But there is a reason for it that makes some sense. Notice that the trip actually takes some time, during which they have time to talk about non-emergency things, do some training, etc - it's not a 20-second trip. They're trying to get to Leia on her home planet, because of R2D2, who Leia sent when she was captured by Vader at Tatooine. Vader then decides to try to extort the Rebel base location from Leia by using Alderaan (her home planet) as a hostage. Seeing her helpless in that situation is much more than just "a few throw away lines". And it makes sense then that the Falcon shows up at about the same time. So there is a reason why, in a huge galaxy, these people end up in the same place. Then, the whole escape from the Death Star with "storm troopers suddenly can't hit anything" is actually explained by Leia later, when she says something like "Our escape was far too easy. They let us escape. We're being tracked." Guess what? Vader put a tracking device on the ship, and gave orders to let them escape, to lead them to the Rebel base, because it is a CRUCIAL issue that they somehow need to find it in a way that makes some actual sense. Just like it is also a crucial issue that the Rebels need to get the Death Star plans to the Rebels, in order for them to find a way to destroy it. Leia chooses to go to the base anyway, also in a gambit to have an opportunity to destroy the Death Star, because it will be coming to the base in great haste (instead of with 30 Star Destroyers in a planned attack) and because the battle will happen before the Imperials also have more time to analyse and find the weakness (which in fact they do during the battle of Yavin, so good thing she had them lead the Death Star to the Rebel base).

Notice how all that makes some degree of sense, and makes the events relevant and dependent on each other in ways that make some sense, and notice how the situation gives the reasons in ways that make some sense. The vastness of the galaxy means there are some delays and difficulty in finding things and organizing attacks and so on.

Compare to The Force Awakens:

The Falcon escapes Jakku, and before Finn and Rey can finish one short conversation, HAN SOLO shows up in deep space. Then they have time for half a conversation when suddenly two groups of bounty hunters show up at the same point and appear down the hallway from them before they can do anything else. To me this is obvious extreme time/space bending by the writer/director, because he wants a breathless plot, at the expense of throwing out the logic that a ship in deep space might be damn impossible to find, or at least not immediately. And that even if there is some broadcasting device on the Falcon, it would take time for its signal to be received and responded to, and even if not, Han Solo, super-experienced dude, would know others were looking too and would at least have a way to be warned if someone else showed up, and it should also take time and give warnings when someone else boards, and the boarders would not immediately just be right there down the hall from him. To me these are all massive continuity underminings.

Han, having just been reminded that others can track and immediately show up at the Falcon, makes no effort to find and remove the tracking. Instead he goes where a "friend" is and fails to expect an immediate attack. He doesn't hide in an asteroid or other relatively safe location, or anything. He walks far away from the Falcon and sits down for a cozy drink and doesn't warn anyone. So lame. So effectively again, the Empire and Rebels (with stupidly changed names) appear at about the same time - the same timing that might be expected as if they were all in the same system.

Then, worst of all, only a few minutes after somehow a few X-Wings manage to drive off a Star Destroyer since natch they're happy having captured a teenage girl, they look up and see a barely-mentioned-before set of planets being destroyed, pretty much just for the dramatic reason of saying "ooh they have a Death Star version 3.0 - oh noes anonymous people died!" in as brief a way as possible. But when bewildered fans do Internet research later to find out who the heck those dead people were, etc., we find that that temporary New Republic capital and its moon planets or whatever WERE IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STAR SYSTEM MANY MANY LIGHT YEARS AWAY even though Leia (because mirroring New Hope scene but in superficial way) etc just get to see them blowing up spectacularly in the sky, because JJ want a cool dramatic effect and doesn't know or doesn't care that it makes no sense that the event would be visible there in any way. Again, it's like it's all in the same system, and would make more sense if it were. It's as if JJ's ignorance/apathy is reducing the galaxy to a single star system, effectively.

Then in the "rebel base versus Starkiller base" situation, again they are not anywhere near each other in the galaxy, but they find themselves in a first-strike race, again in no way that makes sense. It's pretty clearly just because they are mindlessly mirroring the plot of a New Hope, but they threw out the parts that made the plot sequence of that film make any sense. That is:

* How many strikes does Han get? He knows the Falcon is trackable, but they fly it to the Rebel Base anyway. I assume this would be how the One Direction (er New Order?) know where the Rebel base is to target it? Either that or they just know. Again, it seems like there is no particular effort needed to know where something is. The logical effect of a huge galaxy is gone. No pretense of having a reason how they know where it is, or trying to avoid that, or anything, is present IIRC. Again, it's like they may as well all be in the same system.

* Meanwhile, how silly is the Resistance to again have everything on one vital ground base that they can't evacuate when threatened? In A New Hope and Empire, they evacuate what they can - here they don't even seem to bother. Even without a planet-buster, having a crucial ground base is silly if the enemy has a significant fleet. So this is pretty stupid.

* Also, the (ridiculous in so so many ways) Starkiller (lol) Base sucks up stars for ammo (omg how stupid, and was there something insufficient about a Death Star weapon? and so (moment of logic not mentioned in film) can move from star to star. So... how the heck does the Resistance know where it is? And why doesn't it hyperjump to someplace else to launch its next attack, to avoid the Resistance knowing where it is? Because that level of thinking is apparently vastly too sentient for JJ. Conclusion: giant logic vacuum. Again, it's as if everything were in one system, because all logical consequences of being in different systems have been removed.

* Similarly for the Starkiller (groan) Base's weapon being able to send multiple guided hyperspacing planet-destroying glowy-death-tendrils across the galaxy to anywhere before anyone who is not a major character can react or run or anything - this too reduces the effect of galactic distances to essentially one system.

* Similar to Han hyperjumping in perfect sync with Starkiller Base's flickering shield system, even though he is coming from another system so how would he have any data to sync with? Again ignoring logical effects of being in different systems.

* Why were Poe and Emo Badguy lookin' for Luke on Jakku at the same moment? No effort to even make up a reason. Again, it's like there's  only one place in the galaxy - the current plot focus place.


Compare the relatively frequent use of the word "because" in my notes on A New Hope, to the only uses of that word for The Force Awakens refer to counter-logical reasons.

I don't think The Force Awakens really has any plot holes because that would imply the movie had any kind of plot at all.

Quote from: Bren;873474I prefer the term space opera for shows set in space and horse opera for shows set in the American West. That goes double for Star Wars since it wasn't trying to sell any soap.

If you go by what they're trying to sell, westerns would be "romanticized frontier history" opera, space would be "wildly incorrect physics" opera, and Star Wars in particular would be "anything that paid a licensing fee" opera.

I would be very surprised if soap was not among the "anything". The nearby hardware store had shower heads in the shape of R2-D2 and Darth Vader's helmet; I am still wondering at who could find those appealing (do you want the shower head that looks like it can kill you by electrocution or by using the Force?).

Quote from: Elfdart;873525I don't think The Force Awakens really has any plot holes because that would imply the movie had any kind of plot at all.

Exactly.

Though my wife and I enjoyed watching the movie I agree with all the criticism about pacing and continuity and lack of originality.

Quote from: Skarg;873489So, in A New Hope, when the Falcon flies from Tatooine to Alderaan, it may seem convenient that they run into the Death Star. But there is a reason for it that makes some sense. Notice that the trip actually takes some time, during which they have time to talk about non-emergency things, do some training, etc - it's not a 20-second trip. They're trying to get to Leia on her home planet, because of R2D2, who Leia sent when she was captured by Vader at Tatooine. Vader then decides to try to extort the Rebel base location from Leia by using Alderaan (her home planet) as a hostage. Seeing her helpless in that situation is much more than just "a few throw away lines". And it makes sense then that the Falcon shows up at about the same time. So there is a reason why, in a huge galaxy, these people end up in the same place. Then, the whole escape from the Death Star with "storm troopers suddenly can't hit anything" is actually explained by Leia later, when she says something like "Our escape was far too easy. They let us escape. We're being tracked." Guess what? Vader put a tracking device on the ship, and gave orders to let them escape, to lead them to the Rebel base, because it is a CRUCIAL issue that they somehow need to find it in a way that makes some actual sense. Just like it is also a crucial issue that the Rebels need to get the Death Star plans to the Rebels, in order for them to find a way to destroy it. Leia chooses to go to the base anyway, also in a gambit to have an opportunity to destroy the Death Star, because it will be coming to the base in great haste (instead of with 30 Star Destroyers in a planned attack) and because the battle will happen before the Imperials also have more time to analyse and find the weakness (which in fact they do during the battle of Yavin, so good thing she had them lead the Death Star to the Rebel base).

I found a lot of the stuff in A New Hope oddly convenient to the plot. Even more than A New Hope Though, the whole scene in Empire when they are running from the empire, then suddenly hit an asteroid belt, then when they land on an asteroid and hide in a cave, it just happens to be a massive space worm. That stuff is all fine, it makes for entertaining movies, but it sacrifices believability for action and pacing (which again is fine, because it is an action/adventure movie).

I mentioned the whole gambit to track the Falcon, and I agree that they do put a tracking device on there and they explain some things. But it is both reckless for the empire to take the death star to the rebels knowing they have death star plans (why not just send a fleet?) and it is reckless for Leia to continue to the rebel base, knowing they are being tracked. Again, those make for great movies, and the decisions are fine, but it stood out to me in the same way that stuff in the force awakened stood out.

Where I will agree is that modern movies tend to be paced differently. I usually like slower paced movies with more dialogue that take time to build and draw you in. They rarely make films like that today (unless they are specifically dramatic films aimed at an older audience). You don't have quite as many lulls and lengthy dialogue in modern films, and that often annoys me a lot. But importantly star wars was never a series that used slow pacing. It was always more in the indiana jones style of film making and very different from other movies that were coming out in the 70s. Was a new hope slower paced than the new one? Probably, simply because it came out at a time where pacing was different (pacing changes a lot over time and it is really hard to get a new, younger audience to watch older movies with slower pacing). I watch a lot of martial arts movies for example and you really notice this inside a genre if you watch it over time. Audiences in the 60s had more patients than audiences i the 70s for slower developments. Audiences in the 70s were more patient than audiences in the 80s, etc. So the force awakens may be a bit faster paced than A New Hope just because they are made in different eras. That is a product of movies changing, not a product of this one film. But I watched them back to back and have to say the pacing in both seemed pretty much to follow that indiana jones model of out of the pot into the frying pan,where things just kept going quickly along. If you watch the star wars movies, they are pretty fast-paced and hand wavy with time (though I will agree in Force Awakens, one or two elapses might have been helpful).

QuoteNotice how all that makes some degree of sense, and makes the events relevant and dependent on each other in ways that make some sense, and notice how the situation gives the reasons in ways that make some sense. The vastness of the galaxy means there are some delays and difficulty in finding things and organizing attacks and so on.

Again, I listed a bunch of stuff that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense in the original trilogy. If you go online, I'm sure you can find even more comprehensive listings of issues. Certainly some things they do explain, but there is plenty of stuff they don't and it never really seemed to be a priority in star wars (and I say this as a hard sci-fi fan who just can't take the idea that star wars treats science with any respect seriously). I love star wars, but it has never been a series I've gone to for its continuity or reverence for real world science and cause and effect. It has always been more like a comic book.

QuoteCompare to The Force Awakens:

The Falcon escapes Jakku, and before Finn and Rey can finish one short conversation, HAN SOLO shows up in deep space. Then they have time for half a conversation when suddenly two groups of bounty hunters show up at the same point and appear down the hallway from them before they can do anything else. To me this is obvious extreme time/space bending by the writer/director, because he wants a breathless plot, at the expense of throwing out the logic that a ship in deep space might be damn impossible to find, or at least not immediately. And that even if there is some broadcasting device on the Falcon, it would take time for its signal to be received and responded to, and even if not, Han Solo, super-experienced dude, would know others were looking too and would at least have a way to be warned if someone else showed up, and it should also take time and give warnings when someone else boards, and the boarders would not immediately just be right there down the hall from him. To me these are all massive continuity underminings.

Han, having just been reminded that others can track and immediately show up at the Falcon, makes no effort to find and remove the tracking. Instead he goes where a "friend" is and fails to expect an immediate attack. He doesn't hide in an asteroid or other relatively safe location, or anything. He walks far away from the Falcon and sits down for a cozy drink and doesn't warn anyone. So lame. So effectively again, the Empire and Rebels (with stupidly changed names) appear at about the same time - the same timing that might be expected as if they were all in the same system.

Then, worst of all, only a few minutes after somehow a few X-Wings manage to drive off a Star Destroyer since natch they're happy having captured a teenage girl, they look up and see a barely-mentioned-before set of planets being destroyed, pretty much just for the dramatic reason of saying "ooh they have a Death Star version 3.0 - oh noes anonymous people died!" in as brief a way as possible. But when bewildered fans do Internet research later to find out who the heck those dead people were, etc., we find that that temporary New Republic capital and its moon planets or whatever WERE IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STAR SYSTEM MANY MANY LIGHT YEARS AWAY even though Leia (because mirroring New Hope scene but in superficial way) etc just get to see them blowing up spectacularly in the sky, because JJ want a cool dramatic effect and doesn't know or doesn't care that it makes no sense that the event would be visible there in any way. Again, it's like it's all in the same system, and would make more sense if it were. It's as if JJ's ignorance/apathy is reducing the galaxy to a single star system, effectively.

Then in the "rebel base versus Starkiller base" situation, again they are not anywhere near each other in the galaxy, but they find themselves in a first-strike race, again in no way that makes sense. It's pretty clearly just because they are mindlessly mirroring the plot of a New Hope, but they threw out the parts that made the plot sequence of that film make any sense. That is:

* How many strikes does Han get? He knows the Falcon is trackable, but they fly it to the Rebel Base anyway. I assume this would be how the One Direction (er New Order?) know where the Rebel base is to target it? Either that or they just know. Again, it seems like there is no particular effort needed to know where something is. The logical effect of a huge galaxy is gone. No pretense of having a reason how they know where it is, or trying to avoid that, or anything, is present IIRC. Again, it's like they may as well all be in the same system.

* Meanwhile, how silly is the Resistance to again have everything on one vital ground base that they can't evacuate when threatened? In A New Hope and Empire, they evacuate what they can - here they don't even seem to bother. Even without a planet-buster, having a crucial ground base is silly if the enemy has a significant fleet. So this is pretty stupid.

* Also, the (ridiculous in so so many ways) Starkiller (lol) Base sucks up stars for ammo (omg how stupid, and was there something insufficient about a Death Star weapon? and so (moment of logic not mentioned in film) can move from star to star. So... how the heck does the Resistance know where it is? And why doesn't it hyperjump to someplace else to launch its next attack, to avoid the Resistance knowing where it is? Because that level of thinking is apparently vastly too sentient for JJ. Conclusion: giant logic vacuum. Again, it's as if everything were in one system, because all logical consequences of being in different systems have been removed.

* Similarly for the Starkiller (groan) Base's weapon being able to send multiple guided hyperspacing planet-destroying glowy-death-tendrils across the galaxy to anywhere before anyone who is not a major character can react or run or anything - this too reduces the effect of galactic distances to essentially one system.

* Similar to Han hyperjumping in perfect sync with Starkiller Base's flickering shield system, even though he is coming from another system so how would he have any data to sync with? Again ignoring logical effects of being in different systems.

* Why were Poe and Emo Badguy lookin' for Luke on Jakku at the same moment? No effort to even make up a reason. Again, it's like there's  only one place in the galaxy - the current plot focus place.


Compare the relatively frequent use of the word "because" in my notes on A New Hope, to the only uses of that word for The Force Awakens refer to counter-logical reasons.

Again, I am not saying The Force Awakens doesn't have holes. Also, if you feel differently than I do, it isn't any skin off my back. We can't all have the same reaction to space movies. I just don't agree with this analysis personally. I would honestly need to watch it again to address each of these individually though and see how badly they compare to holes in the first trilogy (simply because I've seen the first trilogy many, many times, and I've only seen the Force Awakens once). But again, my impression is most of this stuff is pretty comparable to the kinds of holes I remember from the original trilogy, and most of the holes I did notice (with the exception of one big one that I thought was a bit too far) felt like they added more to the film than they took away (which for me is the measure of whether it is really a problem or not in a movie this light).

In terms of tone, which I have seen a lot of people comment on. I would once again encourage people to rematch the original trilogy. I promise you, it bounces back and forth between humor and seriousness. That is exactly what Force awakens did. Even Jedi would be knee deep in silliness with the Ewoks, then suddenly you see an Ewok get blasted and his friend tries to nudge this lifeless body. For me this is one of the contrasts that works in the franchise. So I felt they did a pretty good job striking that balance here (though I do expect the next film to be much darker).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602I found a lot of the stuff in A New Hope oddly convenient to the plot. Even more than A New Hope Though, the whole scene in Empire when they are running from the empire, then suddenly hit an asteroid belt, then when they land on an asteroid and hide in a cave, it just happens to be a massive space worm. That stuff is all fine, it makes for entertaining movies, but it sacrifices believability for action and pacing (which again is fine, because it is an action/adventure movie).

Yes, various things in A New Hope are oddly convenient. But mostly things have some sort of context or reason or relevant situation around them. And "something really convenient happened" is a whole different degree of unbelievability (even inconceivability) from "something 500 light years away is visible in the sky above".

And yes, the "asteroid field" is not astronomically something we know exists, so a (not entirely inconceivable) Space Opera level thing. The space worm cave is a higher level of Space Opera thing, and is second only to the way the Falcon barely escapes though its teeth on my (fairly short) list of things I think are serious believability problems with The Empire Strikes Back. I forgive the asteroid "field" because it doesn't seem impossible and the music and first part of that sequence I quite enjoy. But I do hate the space worm and especially the escape by the skin of the teeth, because I can only take so many "they probably should have died" moments before a story is to me just about a ridiculously improbable survival that no one really acknowledges. "The Force" I end up assuming, is looking out for its favorite children, a lot.

But again, there are no few to none inconceivable, completely unexplained, would-never-happen-that-way, or just plain mindless events, whereas The Force Awakens seems to me full of those.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602I mentioned the whole gambit to track the Falcon, and I agree that they do put a tracking device on there and they explain some things. But it is both reckless for the empire to take the death star to the rebels knowing they have death star plans (why not just send a fleet?) and it is reckless for Leia to continue to the rebel base, knowing they are being tracked. Again, those make for great movies, and the decisions are fine, but it stood out to me in the same way that stuff in the force awakened stood out.

It is reckless, but it's also established that Vader is more interested in destroying the Rebellion and issues of the Force than he is with the Death Star, which he mocks and seems to at least somewhat disapprove of. Even Tarkin is focussed on finding the Rebel base, and he wants to use his Death Star to do it, to make a point. So it actually developed established continuity that supports that move. Not to mention that Vader and Tarkin are serious scary adults, and not bumbling boy-men who throw 2-year-old tantrums and threaten to tell on each other when they mess things up.

So yes, these are reckless moves that add up to a dramatic showdown. But at least the movie is consistent and establishes the things that lead to this situation. And the whole film acts like it cares about all the situations that lead up to this showdown, and invites the audience to understand them and care, and tries to seem somewhat consistent about how they play out.

In TFA, it's more like a stream of events that are barely explained and don't tend to make much sense - and the sense they end up with way too often adds up to either nonsense (cross-galaxy fire jet attacks seen from other star systems), ridiculousness (came for a droid, got a young girl, just as good - oh look the Rebels we're trying to destroy - guess we'll leave then), or mindlessness (let's just go take out this planet base thing; these things always have ways to blow them up in 20 minutes).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602Where I will agree is that modern movies tend to be paced differently. I usually like slower paced movies with more dialogue that take time to build and draw you in. They rarely make films like that today (unless they are specifically dramatic films aimed at an older audience). You don't have quite as many lulls and lengthy dialogue in modern films, and that often annoys me a lot. But importantly star wars was never a series that used slow pacing. It was always more in the indiana jones style of film making and very different from other movies that were coming out in the 70s. Was a new hope slower paced than the new one? Probably, simply because it came out at a time where pacing was different (pacing changes a lot over time and it is really hard to get a new, younger audience to watch older movies with slower pacing). I watch a lot of martial arts movies for example and you really notice this inside a genre if you watch it over time. Audiences in the 60s had more patients than audiences i the 70s for slower developments. Audiences in the 70s were more patient than audiences in the 80s, etc. So the force awakens may be a bit faster paced than A New Hope just because they are made in different eras. That is a product of movies changing, not a product of this one film. But I watched them back to back and have to say the pacing in both seemed pretty much to follow that indiana jones model of out of the pot into the frying pan,where things just kept going quickly along. If you watch the star wars movies, they are pretty fast-paced and hand wavy with time (though I will agree in Force Awakens, one or two elapses might have been helpful).

I agree that there is a tendency towards faster and more mindless films in later and recent films. Certainly TFA has plenty of company with recent mindless films. However I would say that that is a trend or rationale and not a cause. Not all movies from the 60's or 70's make sense, either. Mindless movies are mindless because they were made mindlessly. Mindlessness may be a trend but it's still just making a mindless movie, and not all recent movies are mindless.

As for pacing, there's fast pacing and then there's throwing out continuity for even faster pacing. I agree that A New Hope and Raiders of the Lost Ark have fast pacing, and I enjoy the fast pacing - I'm able to, because someone took a moment to have the pacing make some sense. (I even find the Dagobah scenes in Empire tedious.) Also, the pacing in those films has film-world "elapses" as you say. TFA has almost zero elapses, and the logic suffers greatly for it. It seems to me that having elapses and slightly slower parts in a film actually increases the effect of the fast-paced parts, because there's some contrast, and also because it's more possible to tell a coherent and believable story that way. I quite liked the stop at the bar with the wise-eyed alien in TFA, and dreaded that I knew it was about to be blown to crap in a matter of minutes by the mindless action patrol, and squirmed uncomfortably as the way they did so made no sense: "We're here to get a droid, so destroy the building! Send in troops and fighters at the same time to the same place! Spread out and don't coordinate! Engage the "traitor" in single melee combat! Chase after the girl!" and the other gripes I already mentioned.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602Again, I listed a bunch of stuff that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense in the original trilogy. If you go online, I'm sure you can find even more comprehensive listings of issues. Certainly some things they do explain, but there is plenty of stuff they don't and it never really seemed to be a priority in star wars (and I say this as a hard sci-fi fan who just can't take the idea that star wars treats science with any respect seriously). I love star wars, but it has never been a series I've gone to for its continuity or reverence for real world science and cause and effect. It has always been more like a comic book.

I know, but those complaints mostly seem pathetic compared to the glaring nonsense in TFA (or the prequels). They don't seem the same type or order of magnitude of silliness.

There's a big difference between non-scientific, made up content, even somewhat light logic, and "no way this makes sense, not gonna try to explain it - we totally don't care". The first Star Wars films and Raiders have really unrealistic settings and technologies and so on, but then they mostly try to play consistently within those settings, so that their action and events make some sense, so there's something to get involved in and care about. They make at least a little bit of effort to at least explain what's happening and why with some consistency.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602Again, I am not saying The Force Awakens doesn't have holes. Also, if you feel differently than I do, it isn't any skin off my back. We can't all have the same reaction to space movies. I just don't agree with this analysis personally. I would honestly need to watch it again to address each of these individually though and see how badly they compare to holes in the first trilogy (simply because I've seen the first trilogy many, many times, and I've only seen the Force Awakens once). But again, my impression is most of this stuff is pretty comparable to the kinds of holes I remember from the original trilogy, and most of the holes I did notice (with the exception of one big one that I thought was a bit too far) felt like they added more to the film than they took away (which for me is the measure of whether it is really a problem or not in a movie this light).

Yeah, I know there are many people who disagree one way or another. I get into this type of discussion though particularly when there are clearly intelligent people who seem to think that there isn't a vast gap between the continuity of films like these. Also because Hollywood keeps spending hundreds of millions on films that I would enjoy if someone spent a little bit of attention on at least trying to somewhat make things make some shred of sense, instead of seeming to be actively anti-logical.

It ends up feeling like a duty to speak up and not just let nonsense slide.

I'd be really curious to hear what you think TFA's holes add to the film. I tend to agree with Spike that most of them could have been easily patched with a very small amount of attention or change to the overall story, which is also partly why they feel so galling.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602In terms of tone, which I have seen a lot of people comment on. I would once again encourage people to rematch the original trilogy. I promise you, it bounces back and forth between humor and seriousness. That is exactly what Force awakens did. Even Jedi would be knee deep in silliness with the Ewoks, then suddenly you see an Ewok get blasted and his friend tries to nudge this lifeless body. For me this is one of the contrasts that works in the franchise. So I felt they did a pretty good job striking that balance here (though I do expect the next film to be much darker).

I agree that there was a steep back and forth in tone in the original trilogy. I don't remember writing that was a complaint of mine with TFA. I enjoy most Star Wars humor, and I think perhaps the only thing I like about Kylo Ren is seeing him have a tantrum with a light sabre (I take that as humor - I'm not sure if that's supposed to be dark or not - I have a hard time taking Kylo Ren seriously at all).

And I think the Ewok situation was gawd awful. They should have stuck with the original idea and had it be a Wookie colony or work camp so they could believably be dangerous (Chewie could have convinced Wookie slaves to revolt), and allowed more than one furry casualty per legion of the Emperor's "best troops". I think Jedi was the logic-level turning point with the Ewoks, and a bit with the "send in all the heroes and let them get captured rescue plan" for Han.