There was a BBC article, here, that fairly accurately identified the underlying problem every follow on movie after the original - that the whole series should have stopped with just one movie. Ignoring the garbage Prequel movies, all of the follow on movies have just basically regurgitated the same story time and time again.

Except Empire is the most visually fluid, well paced and emotionally involving of any of the films.

Quote from: Voros;995033Except Empire is the most visually fluid, well paced and emotionally involving of any of the films.

Screw you and your pathetic attempt to enjoy something!

Quote from: Voros;995033Except Empire is the most visually fluid, well paced and emotionally involving of any of the films.

The Empire argument is actually addressed in the article cited. For me, I've never held to the view that Empire is better than the original anyway, as it requires the first (and third) movie to make any sense.

I find the argument against Empire in the article glib and unconvincing, he has to dismiss Empire for his thesis to work but that runs into the issue that almost everyone, fans and critics, agrees that Empire is the more pleasing film.

One does not 'need' Return to find Empire a satisfying film by itself. When I introduced SW to my wife we started with Empire, the 'background' from the first film is hardly neccessary to enjoy it either. To me the 'incomplete' ending of Empire makes it feel more moving than if it had resolved itself conventionally.  It is like the difference between the book The Mist and the film version. The ambigious ending of the book is much better.

Another example, one of the greatest Samurai films I've seen is Sword of Doom, which freeze frames mid-fight. I thought it was brilliant. There were supposed to be sequels but they never got made, but if anything the 'incomplete' ending of the film is superior to a more 'complete' ending. And to claim somehow a sequel 'requiring' the other films automatically makes it inferior would be run up against most filmnerds preference for Godfather II over I, or at a less 'exalted' level X-Men II is much better than X-Men. Usually the sequel is inferior but not always.

I do agree that if the first film has a pop art sensibilty that was fresh and interesting but the reason that has been obscured is because of the overweening seriousness with which the fanbase has since treated the films.

Quote from: Voros;994700Seems that Lucas was interested in creating a fun, fast pop culture mashup and was making it up as he went along (oh hey, let's make Vader his father! And Leia his sister!). Coherency is really beside the point in this genre, he wasn't trying to make some hard sf masterpiece.

This is my impression as well.

But I enjoy the Transformers movies for what they are. I read a critic who freaked out over Transformers: Last Knight because he thought the plot was created by a 8 year old playing with their toys. I believe the critic might be right.

The Farce Awakens was too commercially cynical for me, far more than the Prequels. I am 100% good with being sold toys, games and knick knacks via a movie, but there has got to be a bare minimum of inventiveness and competence to make it worth the ride. Fortunately, Rogue One achieved that.

However, I do feel for Star Wars GMs who try to make sense of stuff for their RPG sessions. But that's why my Star Wars campaigns always took place on the other end of the galaxy from the movies. AKA, the other ass end of space opposite Tattooine.

Quote from: Voros;995046I do agree that if the first film has a pop art sensibilty that was fresh and interesting but the reason that has been obscured is because of the overweening seriousness with which the fanbase has since treated the films.

Which generally all started with Empire and it's fixation on providing a 'deeper' set of themes and relationships, I'd argue. Which is why it wasn't as good as the original, which was like a cultural breath of fresh air in the cynical 70s by contrast.

In some ways, it'd been better if it had not been quite as successful, remaining a stand-alone movie without any sequels and prequels - go on, admit it.

Quote from: flyingmice;995037Screw you and your pathetic attempt to enjoy something!

^^This^^

The fucking overanalysis was cool in Clerks, but just sounds like a bunch of nerds trying to out-nerd each other by showing how big their fanboi penises are in comparison at this point.

Uh no I won't 'admit it' because I think Empire is a better made film. I don't think it is 'deeper' than SW, thematically it just has a stronger dose of genre romance and a hell of a twist. But the real strength comes from Kershner who makes Empire much more fleet-footed and elegant visually than the first film.

I don't think the films go off the rails until Jabba gets blown up. Past that point Return goes downhill.

But the real issues is less the films than the self-serious fanbase and the mediocre 'expanded universe' that sucked all the fun out of a nice little pop culture atrifact.

Quote from: Voros;995186Uh no I won't 'admit it' because I think Empire is a better made film. I don't think it is 'deeper' than SW, thematically it just has a stronger dose of genre romance and a hell of a twist. But the real strength comes from Kershner who makes Empire much more fleet-footed and elegant visually than the first film.

I don't think the films go off the rails until Jabba gets blown up. Past that point Return goes downhill.

But the real issues is less the films than the self-serious fanbase and the mediocre 'expanded universe' that sucked all the fun out of a nice little pop culture atrifact.

Well, I think you're inadvertently contradicting yourself. The self-serious fanbase and mediocre 'expanded universe' largely stems from Empire as it's catalyst. Had the original Star Wars been standalone, as a self contained story, then none of the other stuff would have happened.

There's no contradiction. It is not the films fault that this fanatical and emotionally arrested fanbase developed. That fanbase has more to do with social vagaries and the mass marketing of toys and doo-dads that have very little do with the films or their content. One can't lay the blame of 'geek culture' at the feet of their idols, Tolkien isn't responsible for all the piss-poor generic fantasy novels and their semi-literate followers.

Quote from: Voros;995242There's no contradiction. It is not the films fault that this fanatical and emotionally arrested fanbase developed.

It is the movie's fault that it provided no valediction for it's characters, that then required follow up movies and by doing so, exploited the speculation with masses of merchandise and 'expanded universe' extrapolation. All starts with Empire, not the original Star Wars which had a self contained narrative.

I think the originals are best approached as a religious text.  Divinely inspired but Imperfectly realised.  Remember Moses was the profit but he didn't like speaking to crowds so it was his brother Aaron who was the priest.  So when the Israelites were lost in the desert they received the Word better, truer through the man who had talked to he who had spoken with God, than straight from the profit.  

The better movies are Empire and Return.  The ones not directed by Lucas.  

At this point the question is, how much is devinely inspired and how much is wise words from a man who was touched?

Quote from: Voros;994700Really? They feel pretty thrown together to me. Lots of lapses of logic, Obi Wan's behaviour doesn't make a lick of sense, the Death Star's super convenient autodestruct 'button' on the outside, the storyline of RotJ being 'let's blow up the Death Star again!' etc.

Course they're just pulp inspired space opera adventures for kids so I never bothered to critique them with the sort of OCD attention to detail rampant on the net.

Seems that Lucas was interested in creating a fun, fast pop culture mashup and was making it up as he went along (oh hey, let's make Vader his father! And Leia his sister!). Coherency is really beside the point in this genre, he wasn't trying to make some hard sf masterpiece.

My son is 7 and loves everything Star Wars. He's the target audience. He doesn't notice the inconsistencies where so much of the first movie makes zero sense due to the later movies trying to change facts (Leia becomes Luke's sister instead of love interest, Obi-Wan becomes a liar about Luke's parentage, the Force goes from being believed in by few to having been commonplace only 20 years prior, etc.). Again, he's 7. The trouble is when adults take these movies seriously.  The only one I really like is Star Wars. And even then, I'd rather watch Flash Gordon (1980), which actually is more mature by far and simultaneously more fun.

Quote from: Headless;995265The better movies are Empire and Return.  The ones not directed by Lucas.  

Nah, they really aren't.  Star Wars is the best of the bunch and the only one that bears repeated viewing. The Empire Strikes Back is pretty good but has too many boring sequences which are apparently why it gets its reputation for being "serious" and "dark." It also lacks a beginning and an ending.