Quote from: HaffrungBecause nobody on this board is defending Syria.

No.  They are blaming the United States and not Syria when it was Syria, not the United States that tortured a man who was from Syria, not the United States.

If a woman has too much to drink at a party, passes out, and winds up being raped, do you blame the woman because she drank too much and put herself in a position to be raped or do you blame the rapist who actually perpetrated the crime?  And if you hear someone finding fault only in the behavior of the woman but never mentioning the behavior of the rapist, does that sound like an even-handed critique or blaming the woman and making excuses for the rapist to you?

Its more like if a woman who you know is being beaten by her boyfriend passes by your front lawn, and you grab her, stuff her into a car against her will, and take her not to the shelter she's staying in, but to said abusive boyfriend, hogtied.

I'd say you can blame the boyfriend for beating her within an inch of her life, sure. But you can also spare lots of blame for the fuckhead that kidnapped her and drove her back to the asshole's house and handed her over as a present.

RPGPundit

Quote from: John MorrowIf anyone but a branch of the American government locked people in a prison, we'd call it kidnapping, too.  Does that mean that we should let everyone out of jail?  Governments get to do things that citizens can't.  That's the way it is everywhere.

Morrow, you must spend a lot of time fishing, because all you ever seem to have are red herrings. The American government unjustly grabbed Arar on a layover at an airport and deported him to Syria, where he was tortured, and they did knowing that he would be. That's a morally shitty thing to do, and all the tortuous sophistry in the world won't exonerate the people who did it.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineMorrow, you must spend a lot of time fishing, because all you ever seem to have are red herrings. The American government unjustly grabbed Arar on a layover at an airport and deported him to Syria, where he was tortured, and they did knowing that he would be. That's a morally shitty thing to do, and all the tortuous sophistry in the world won't exonerate the people who did it.

Calling something a red herring doesn't make it so.  

It's sophistry comparing the behavior of a government with the behavior of an individual, which is what your original comment did.  If what I said is a red herring, then you introduced it into the debate.  If you want to charge the American government with unjustly grabbing Arar on his layover, then just do that and focus on the facts.  But, somehow, I suspect things won't look so awful if you do that.

Arar was a Syrian National who was detained based on information provided by the RCMP (ADDED: based on secret documents leaked to the press, they apparently thought he was a trained member of an Al Qaeda terrorist cell).  He had retained his Syrian citizenship.  Canadian officials (incorrectly) told the United States that he was no longer a resident of Canada.  So they deported him, under US immigration laws, to a country which he was originally from and was still a citizen of.  And given that version of the internal RCMP investigation that was given to the public was censored and there was evidence that members of the RCMP still considered Arar "a person of great interest", even after Canada decided to try to get him from Syria, and the US keeps them on their watch list because of "his personal associations and travel history".  There are claims that an informant places him in Afghanistan in the early 1990, which he denies, and neither you nor I have access to the full range of intelligence reports upon which the RCMP or the US government were and are making their decisions.  All of this information comes from the Wikipedia article on him.

He was a citizen of Syria.  Apparently Canada didn't want him back at the time.  The RCMP was quite possibly telling the US that he was a trained member of al Qaeda.  Where was he supposed to be sent?  Disneyland?  Out of curiosity, does Mr. Arar still retain his dual citizenship with Syria and, if so, why?

Is it horrible that he was tortured?  Sure.  But maybe if people spent more time getting the UN to apply pressure to countries that actually torture people routinely to stop torturing people instead of complaining about the much milder stuff that the United States does, maybe there wouldn't be so much torture.  Instead, the UN would rather pass resolutions against the US and Israel and give Syria a pass.

Quote from: RPGPunditIts more like if a woman who you know is being beaten by her boyfriend passes by your front lawn, and you grab her, stuff her into a car against her will, and take her not to the shelter she's staying in, but to said abusive boyfriend, hogtied.

Don't forget the part where you call the shelter and they tell you that she's very dangerous and they don't want her back and that her official residence is still the boyfriend's house.

Quote from: John MorrowWhy aren't we seeing more outrage in this thread directed toward Syria?  You know.  The country that actually tortured him.

Torturing people is wrong. Collaborating with people to let them torture someone is just as wrong. Collaborating with people to let them torture someone whilst at the same time claiming that you support human rights and a free and fair judicial system is being ragingly hypocritical about it, and hypocrisy makes people really angry.

Quote from: WarthurTorturing people is wrong. Collaborating with people to let them torture someone is just as wrong. Collaborating with people to let them torture someone whilst at the same time claiming that you support human rights and a free and fair judicial system is being ragingly hypocritical about it, and hypocrisy makes people really angry.

Canada was telling the United States that he was associated with terrorists, they didn't want him, and he was still a Syrian citizen.  What should the US have done with him?  If he didn't want to go back to Syria, why did he maintain his Syrian citizenship?

Quote from: One Horse TownWe are the most monitered country on the planet (i believe). The real sad thing about this is that it's got fuck all to do with terrorism and everything to do with alcohol fueled crime. We've had a problem for a while now and it's gotten very bad within the last 5 years or so. Go into town for a drink and you're entering another world these days.
...But considering that the home office has just 'lost' the details of 25 million peoples' child benifit details, including adresses, bank account details etc, hopefully, that'll die a death pretty quickly as people lose faith in this sort of 'big brother' monitoring ...

The photographer of this Youtube clip seems to be taking proactive measures in response to the encroaching UK culture:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VfQrDK9YHas

However, it looks like he's more concerned with the police than with the local youths...

Quote from: John MorrowYou need to dig below the talking points and understand the arguments that support them, otherwise you'll sound like Sean Hannity.  

Hey, I like Sean HAnnity!

Seriously, I do have most of those books. I especially liked How I accidentally joined the vast right-wing conspiracy.

I do research some things, but I honestly don't have the time. 3 kids, all under 10. I happen to have a little time right now as I'm still sick from double pnemonia.

It's just a lot easier to use NBC for one side, and 6 hours of talk radio for the other. (Rush and Sean)

In a good debate, I'd be used to mop the floor. But I still enjoy it.

Quote from: shewolfHey, I like Sean HAnnity!

Well, I think Sean Hannity is a nice guy, but I've heard his opponents have him for lunch when they knock him off of his talking points and simple arguments.  That really doesn't help when it happens.

Quote from: shewolfSeriously, I do have most of those books. I especially liked How I accidentally joined the vast right-wing conspiracy.

Yeah, I liked it too, which is why I mentioned it.  It's interesting the role that having a child played in his "conversion".

Quote from: shewolfI do research some things, but I honestly don't have the time. 3 kids, all under 10. I happen to have a little time right now as I'm still sick from double pnemonia.

Oh, I understand, which is why I gave you the links at various levels of depth (it's easier to read an article or column than a long position paper or a book).

Quote from: shewolfIt's just a lot easier to use NBC for one side, and 6 hours of talk radio for the other. (Rush and Sean)

Yes, though MSNBC will give even more biased reporting, if you can stomach Chris Matthews and Keith Olbermann (after their hatchet job on the Swift Boat Vets, I can't).  I've listened to both Rush and Sean and they have their moment but Rush spends too much time talking about himself and Sean can be a bit shallow, in my opinion.  I much prefer Laura Ingraham and Mark Levin is good on Constitutional and legal stuff, though a bit grouchy in general.

Quote from: shewolfIn a good debate, I'd be used to mop the floor. But I still enjoy it.

It's much more fun to do the mopping than to be the mop.

Quote from: John MorrowYeah, I liked it too, which is why I mentioned it.  It's interesting the role that having a child played in his "conversion".

Yeah, I'm much less liberal, and I wasn't exactly part of the DNC before kids

Quote from: John MorrowYes, though MSNBC will give even more biased reporting, if you can stomach Chris Matthews and Keith Olbermann (after their hatchet job on the Swift Boat Vets, I can't).  I've listened to both Rush and Sean and they have their moment but Rush spends too much time talking about himself and Sean can be a bit shallow, in my opinion.  I much prefer Laura Ingraham and Mark Levin is good on Constitutional and legal stuff, though a bit grouchy in general.

No dish or cable Plus, Mathews makes me scream bloody murder at the TV. Scares the pets. I've seen him very early a few Sunday mornings while nursing the baby....curdled his breakfast

Quote from: John MorrowIt's much more fun to do the mopping than to be the mop.

It is, but I know I'm no where near as smart as some people. I've read some of the threads here and had to stop when I git tired of using google to figure out what was said

Plus, I'm bad for wanting short posts - I'm not a great typist, so I condense things way too much.

I just don't think fast enough. Don't have to when all I do is wash dishes and wipe ass all day. *shrug*