Quote from: Jackalope;222429Well, actually, such a society is the natural default state of things, and requires suppression by exterior controls (i.e. states) to allow communism or capitalism to flourish.

If it's the natural state of things, why has it never existed?

Quote from: droog;222436If it's the natural state of things, why has it never existed?

It has existed, and continues to exist.  It actually takes a lot of effort on the part of the government to criminalize free market activity.

Quote from: HinterWelt;222433Oh, I did not mean to imply that at all. Just, the higher end restaurants, from my research, tend to have a better return on investment. Of course, this is assuming you are not funding a 6 million dollar restaurant with 3 million.

I love cooking. I raise my own herbs, love shopping the farmers market for fresh produce and meat, have a huge book of recipes. Loving something and making a business of it are two different things. I love writing, gaming and I did the research and that is why HinterWelt has been around for six years and has over 20 products. Passion and your profession should overlap but the business part is every bit as important as the passion part, more so in my opinion.

Bill

Absolutely.  I entertain notions of running my own restaurant one day, but frankly I know damn well I don't have the business side of it down, so if I did go into it it would take either a hell of a lot more training, a more knowledgeable partner to handle the business side, or both.  

It's interesting you bring up gaming, because I don't think I recall a single market on the planet with a higher percentage of individuals with the passion, and non of the ability or business sense.

Quote from: Jackalope;222449It has existed, and continues to exist.  It actually takes a lot of effort on the part of the government to criminalize free market activity.

Let's have some examples.

Quote from: J Arcane;222426You also get a lot of vapid yuppie idiots who see a couple of shows on Food Network and think "oh hay I start restaurant 4 free food yay!", and next thing you know they've burned through daddy's retirement fund.  

One of the UK Kitchen Nightmares episodes showed a situation exactly like that.  Some chick (spoiled 30-something brat) used her father's retirement money to start a vegetarian restaurant in France.  She hires someone who's like her, and the two think that you can just show up a half hour before opening and manage to make money.

So Ramsey comes in, gets her a new, motivated chef, and basically sets it up so all she has to do is put in the work and she'll make money.  A few weeks later, the place is closed down.  Why?  She didn't want to have to do the work or put in the hours.  She'd rather spend her time gallivanting around, chatting on her cell with her friends, etc.  Her poor father (even if he is an enabler) was mortified having to explain the whole thing to Ramsey.

Quote from: J Arcane;222452Absolutely.  I entertain notions of running my own restaurant one day, but frankly I know damn well I don't have the business side of it down, so if I did go into it it would take either a hell of a lot more training, a more knowledgeable partner to handle the business side, or both.  

It's interesting you bring up gaming, because I don't think I recall a single market on the planet with a higher percentage of individuals with the passion, and non of the ability or business sense.

Yeah, and really think about it. How many companies do you see that have been around for 5-10 years? And it is not a case of scale. Sure, if all you wanted to do was put out your home brew then you are in then out. Still, you have closures of what should be pretty successful setups and with appalling frequency. I remember back int he 90s meeting the very nice ladies from Noir RPG. They were the hottest product at GTS that year. Selling boxes to companies in Australia, Europe and US. Then poof! nothing.

People are very fond of the "You can;t make money in RPGs" line but it is more "It is easy to lose everything" just like in other businesses.

But I digress...

Bill

Edit to put something on topic in this post: So, like I said, education is the key to helping the poor and creating opportunity thus showing them they have choices. The US has programs for the poor and the unemployed that do just this. I happen to have been the recipient in the past of those programs. They are becoming more difficult to get which is a bit dangerous if you ask me.

Quote from: Jackalope;222351So that's two anecdotes.  How many anecdotes make a proof?  Oh damn, I just remembered.  No amount of anecdotes makes a proof.

Hey, once you start PROVING your crackpot ideas, I'll start coming up with more than anecdotes.  

Quotelol.

And the winner of the most informative and/or relevant reply?

If you wish, like Balbinus and others to tear apart my statement (note for the record: I never said only, and yes history must be considered) by all means, do so. If all you want to do is quote and 'lol', I assure you that I am well versed in dealing with small children.  Your mocking laughter does not threaten me, for it is hollow and without weight.

Quote from: droog;222454Let's have some examples.

Will you accept examples of free markets operating within areas that are, technically, within the "area of control" of state-run monopolies?  Because there aren't very good records of pre-industrial markets, and by the industrial era most areas were thoroughly under some government's thumb.

There are plenty of examples of villages that have organized communally.  Many areas of Spain operated as entirely voluntary mutual support societies during the civil war when the central government collapsed.  The Mondragon Corporate Collective grew out of one such village co-op (a lamp factory in the town of Mondragon, in the Basque region).

In America there were several attempts to create alternative economies (most of them occurring on the West coast, California in particular) with alternative currencies, for those who were being disadvantaged by the prejudices in the mainstream market.  These efforts were very successful, but were eventually suppressed by the state under its money monopoly policy.  Everyone knows of Byrons battle for bi-metalism, and his famous "You shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns! You shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold!" speech, but fewer people know of the many

I'm also a fan of the Emperor Joshua Norton, America's only Emperor, who ruled from San Francisco and printed his own money -- which was accepted by many local businesses despite having no backing at all.  But that's more a lesson in how the illusion of authority works, and the quasi-magical nature of state-issued money.  

There are countless examples of successful collectives and co-operatives that function in the capitalist economy, despite the best efforts of the capitalist aristocracy to rig the system.  The mere possibility of such collectives drives much of the progressive change in capitalist firms, just as the threat of revolutionary action drives progressive change in government.

SPIKE: Your first mistake was thinking I'm out to convince anyone of any of my ideas.  If someone is interested, I like talking about them.  But I'm not trying to win converts, or change the world.  If I was stuck on an elevator with the POTUS, I'd try to make a persuasive argument.  But there's really no reason for me to take internet political chat remotely seriously.  So mostly I just try to bait guys like you into saying insane shit that illustrates how truly unreasonable you are.  

Like when Morrow said it was awfully convenient that I could come up with a different example of capitalist exploitation every day.  That made me laugh my ass off.  That was hysterically funny.  I mean, that statement can only make sense if John is actually so paranoid he thinks that people are staging examples of exploitation in order to discredit capitalist.  Like maybe there's this secret cabal of liberals who set up entire fake corporations just to exploit people so that they can get caught and give other liberals fodder for discrediting capitalism.

Wait, why am I explaining this to you?  You can't possibly comprehend the humor inherent in your position.  I mean, if you got what a joke people like you are, then you'd...stop being you.

Quote from: jgants;222455So Ramsey comes in, gets her a new, motivated chef, and basically sets it up so all she has to do is put in the work and she'll make money.  A few weeks later, the place is closed down.  Why?  She didn't want to have to do the work or put in the hours.  She'd rather spend her time gallivanting around, chatting on her cell with her friends, etc.  Her poor father (even if he is an enabler) was mortified having to explain the whole thing to Ramsey.

So despite the advantages of money provided to her by her father, she failed.  And whose fault was it that she failed?

Quote from: Balbinus;222399I mean, John massively underestimates the advantages that being born into money provide, but new businesses tend to fail due to a lack of financial education more than anything else.

I'm well aware that being born into money provides (sometimes quite significant) advantages but the advantage comes more from the culture of the class, in my opinion, than from the money itself, and that culture can be learned from and copied or adapted by those not born to it.  The problem with resenting the rich and successful is that it discourages people from learning from them.

Quote from: John Morrow;222548I'm well aware that being born into money provides (sometimes quite significant) advantages but the advantage comes more from the culture of the class, in my opinion, than from the money itself, and that culture can be learned from and copied or adapted by those not born to it.  The problem with resenting the rich and successful is that it discourages people from learning from them.

Item #11 from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell#Summary_of_some_of_Sowell.27s_thought_and_philosophy



11. Human capital is the most durable, most precious of all, trumping both physical and financial capital, and overcoming the most adverse circumstances. Over and over again in Sowell's works the theme of "human capital" appears. Human capital is the sum total of values, attitudes, skills, work effort and cultural inheritance and patterns, often extending back for centuries. Human capital can be individual- education, self-discipline, savings or hard work - but more important to Sowell's work, it is also mass capital, the combined product of millions, not the selected preserve of a few.

Human capital and oppressed minorities. Human capital has permitted ethnic minorities to bounce back and triumph over the harshest, most brutal treatment by majorities. Sowell's works (Economics and Politics of Race (1993), Ethnic America(1981), Affirmative Action around the World (2004), and Race and Culture (1994). etc) are laced with such illustrations, across several nations of the world, and across several centuries. Jews in Europe or the Middle East for example, often harshly persecuted for centuries and denied a basis in agriculture, used their skills in urban economies to not only survive, but to ultimately end-run their enemies. Overseas Chinese are another such group- enduring harsh treatment from the colonial and modern era of Southeast Asia to the mining towns of 19th Century California, where rampaging white mobs did not give them "a Chinaman's chance."[27] Today their native born descendants as a group surpass the US white average on a number of counts, from income and education, to IQ and academic tests. Japanese-Americans show a similar pattern despite such obstacles as racist land laws designed to freeze them out of farming occupations, or the internment camps of WWII.

Human capital in patterns reaching back centuries. In several works- Sowell demonstrates this triumph of human capital, and the human spirit. These are repeated across several different countries. Industrious German farmers for example who took over "wasteland" scorned by others and made them productive farms did so not only in the United States, but in places as far afield as Russia and Argentina. Japanese farming skill and discipline repeated itself from the produce fields of California to Brazil. Italian stone and vineyard workers dominated certain related trades from the streets of New York, to the fields of distant Argentina. None of this is by accident- but reflects human capital earned the hard way across the span of centuries, in multiple nations, across multiple generations. The importance of human capital- mass capital attained by ordinary men and women through generations of experience and sacrifice, is for Sowell, much more important to human well-being than the theories of racial supremacists or utopian activists. Such capital is the foundation of human liberty and civilization. Some critics claim that the sharp, sometimes scarcastic tone found in some of Sowell's works such as Inside American Education reflects his exasperation and frustration at the waste of human capital occurring in many minority, particularly black communities.[28]

Quote from: jgants;222417The whole free-market anarchy thing is loony and makes no sense.  Such a society would never come about naturally...

I think there are some differing ideas of what constitutes a "free market" here. If perhaps someone would offer a definition of the term as they're using it, it might aid those using the term in different ways.

Quote from: droog;222400You don't understand, B. People feel guilty about succeeding and therefore they sabotage themselves unconsciously.

More accurately, my argument was that many people find some of the elements of running a successful business distasteful so they wind up not charging enough for their goods or services to make decent profits.  After all, isn't the argument that oil companies should feel guilty over their record profits?

Quote from: John Morrow;222557After all, isn't the argument that oil companies should feel guilty over their record profits?

You must be confusing me with somebody who uses the word 'should' in arguments. Either way, your own argument is obviously balls. Try another tack.

Quote from: Jackalope;222518Will you accept examples of free markets operating within areas that are, technically, within the "area of control" of state-run monopolies?  Because there aren't very good records of pre-industrial markets, and by the industrial era most areas were thoroughly under some government's thumb.

There are plenty of examples of villages that have organized communally.  Many areas of Spain operated as entirely voluntary mutual support societies during the civil war when the central government collapsed.  The Mondragon Corporate Collective grew out of one such village co-op (a lamp factory in the town of Mondragon, in the Basque region).

No, I can't accept those as examples. You said 'societies'. Within a broader society it's possible to have smaller examples of almost any form of organisation.