Quote from: Koltar;1117342So your group has a lot of cynical angry people who criticize everything...

Ed C

Hey, that's the sequel trilogy, so why not?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1117343Hey, that's the sequel trilogy, so why not?

Cynical? Yes. Critical? No. Thats too charitable. A critical series doesnt make a deatgstar fleet.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1117341I have to disagree with just about everything you wrote because I disagree fundamentally on what you find good about these characters.

Kylo sucks. Darth fanboy is a terrible idea. Op sue as the main character is a terrible idea.
Slaughtering the previous cast and undoing thier happy ending in the most nihilistic and sloppy way possible to justify your story is just terrible.

None of what you listed even starts off on a good foot. Not saying it cant be done well, but tgeir not ingerently good elements.

The time for setup for these complex elements was TFA. And that disnt happen.

I would write more but 3 hours of sleep.

You do realize I'm not defending the trilogy, right?  

I'm saying that in the hands of a writer... just about any writer... that RoS could have been salvaged, and I point out how, nothing more.

Now to your points:

Kylo sucks:  Not really. Sure, Emo Vader is a lame start, and the Darth Vader fanboy aspect was lame. So what?  Adam Driver, for all his goofy ass appearance, has, by all accounts, acted his ass off with the material that they gave him.   Again, as far as TLJ is concerned, it actually made him a complex and interesting character, rather than some dumbass trying to make himself evil because 'squee, DV was soooooo COOL!!!!'  You have a boy betrayed by his teacher and uncle, almost murdered in his sleep, shaped by wicked men to be a weapon, a mere tool, and eventually coming to grips with that and looking for his own way forward, questioning his path. That's not a bad character. Conflicted, rejecting his own past, and looking for revenge and a human connection (Rey. I know.)  

Nihilistic extermination: I agree that would be a solution, but that's not what I was trying to do. I explicitly was addressing the hollow defense that JJ had to work with shit left to him by TLJ.  The Ideal solution was for none of these abominations to have been made. Its a sad, sad day when I prefer the works of Kevin J Anderson (of the Solo Twins... ugh...) to anything the House of Mouse put out.

None of (etc): I... I am very curious as to what you think a good starting point for a story is? You don't think having a small group of plucky heroes, with only a ragged ship and some droids to their name, facing off against an ascendant tyrannically evil galactic government is not a good place to start a story?  
Have you ever SEEN a Star Wars movie?  Howabout Kurosawa?  Fuck me, man, do you LORD OF THE MOTHERFUCKING RINGS?  

Just because JJ and the Mouse can't make a coherent (much less decent) story if you put a fucking gun to their heads doesn't mean those elements are a non-starter.

[video=youtube;5pAsss_nTlk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pAsss_nTlk[/youtube]

Towards the end of the review, there's a moment where Jay mentions Rey's Theme, and I got kinda sad that the sequel trilogy is a string of missed opportunities. I liked the concept of Ray when she was an outsider. A scavenger living in the shadow of the events of the original trilogy, and where she could go from there. They could have done something with the idea of an ex-stormtrooper, coming to grips with what he's been a part of, and a brash pilot butting his head against the "system" of the Resistance.
And Kylo... man. I agree with Spike there. It would have been a great character arc for Kylo to realize the "bad guys" he idolizes don't care for his fanboyism, and are just using him.

But it's all in the execution, and the sequels are a fine example of how not to do that.

House of Mouse could have just used the Rogue Squadron series, the Wraith Squadron series, and then the Thrawn Trilogy and they would have had three separate sequel trilogies with proven book sale track records. Seriously, even with the crappy stuff mixed in, the Legends material dealt with the fall of a mighty Empire and its aftermath in a way that there were story opportunities for everyone and their Loth-Cat.

Let this be the punch in the face that wakes up the House of Mouse.

Quote from: jeff37923;1117349House of Mouse could have just used the Rogue Squadron series, the Wraith Squadron series, and then the Thrawn Trilogy and they would have had three separate sequel trilogies with proven book sale track records. Seriously, even with the crappy stuff mixed in, the Legends material dealt with the fall of a mighty Empire and its aftermath in a way that there were story opportunities for everyone and their Loth-Cat.

Let this be the punch in the face that wakes up the House of Mouse.

Rise of Skywalker - JJ = Dark Empire?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1117350Rise of Skywalker - JJ = Dark Empire?

Dark Empire was actually one that I thought could be done away with. The Force is a mystical power, but to me it needs to be kept away from becoming all superhero-y and Dark Empire jumps that shark.

Quote from: jeff37923;1117351Dark Empire was actually one that I thought could be done away with. The Force is a mystical power, but to me it needs to be kept away from becoming all superhero-y and Dark Empire jumps that shark.

The Emperor's massive scale Force lighting in The Rise of Skywalker reminded me a lot of the Force Storms from Dark Empire, and that's before the cloning, reveal of the Emperor reborn/never dead, and new ships with superlasers.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1117352The Emperor's massive scale Force lighting in The Rise of Skywalker reminded me a lot of the Force Storms from Dark Empire, and that's before the cloning, reveal of the Emperor reborn/never dead, and new ships with superlasers.

I've been putting off seeing RoS and that just makes me want to wait a little longer.

Im limited to phone only currently: fanboyism is a shitty arc. Its not intimidating, its not particularly deep or smart or engaging.

It was a marketting ploy to sell vader like toys.

Rey was always rotten to the core.

Leave the OT alone. Stop parasiting off of it and do something new.

If making 175 million its opening weekend is a punch in the nose, I'll have two, please.

Quote from: Lurkndog;1117363If making 175 million its opening weekend is a punch in the nose, I'll have two, please.

Considering the sheer cost of the movie. That is possibly a huge loss so far. But it is early yet and the box office will either pick up steam or lose it in the next week or two.

Quote from: Lurkndog;1117363If making 175 million its opening weekend is a punch in the nose, I'll have two, please.

Big, dumb, loud franchise films make millions. This isn't anything out of the ordinary. That's the scale of these things now.

I haven't seen Rise of Skywanker yet, but I agree with Spike that a writer could have taken TLJ somewhere. Maybe that would have happened if Rian the Lame had been kept on, but bringing JJ aboard assured that - based on ego alone - JJ was going to have RoS follow his own TFA film. Hollywood directors are ego-maniacs (often with good reason) so any story decisions are going to be ego driven. In many ways, a brand new director with no ties to either JJ or Rian or Lucas might have been the "better" choice to look at the first two films and create an end-cap to the trilogy.

Of course, I must ask WHY did it even have to be a trilogy? Why not 4 or 5 films in the sequence?

Quote from: Koltar;1117342So your group has a lot of cynical angry people who criticize everything...

Have you met gamers?

I generally play with people who can tell shit from shinola, even if they're Star Wars fans. I also have a strong background in story structure and character development so even though I don't / won't railroad, I know how to drop beats that resonate and echo. Star Wars is an easy playground for this because its steeped in both our own historical mythology and its own fictional mythology. As such, if a GM of any talent runs Star Wars with an ear for what made the original films resonate with much of the human race, they are going to get praise versus (at least) TFA and TLJ which bizarrely seemed to not know why people love Star Wars.

Quote from: jeff37923;1117349Let this be the punch in the face that wakes up the House of Mouse.

The House of Mouse doesn't care a whit about this movie's box office. It will do a billion worldwide by March 2020, and then sit on Disney+ ensuring families cough up the $144/year for access to the Mouse.

And the Mandalorian's success proves you don't need to make Star Wars films anymore. They can make TV series, lock them down via Disney+ and milk the audience monthly...forever.

[insert the Emperor's laugh]

Quote from: Spinachcat;1117370Of course, I must ask WHY did it even have to be a trilogy? Why not 4 or 5 films in the sequence?

No! Please, NO!!! Let'em die! NO!!!

Two was already too much. Three was unnecessary. They all suck. Let them die a painful horrible death and be done with it already.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1117370The House of Mouse doesn't care a whit about this movie's box office. It will do a billion worldwide by March 2020, and then sit on Disney+ ensuring families cough up the $144/year for access to the Mouse.

And the Mandalorian's success proves you don't need to make Star Wars films anymore. They can make TV series, lock them down via Disney+ and milk the audience monthly...forever.

[insert the Emperor's laugh]

Unfortunately true. I really wanted the Mandalorian to be crap and be the final nail, but they did NOT fuck around with that series. They went all out and pulled no stops. The Mandalorian is the best SW related thing they've done since the Holy Trilogy.