Quote from: Dimitrios;1117235I haven't been following the Disney Star Wars at all except for catching Rogue One on netflix (and liked it fine. Although "everybody dies" if a surprisingly downbeat ending for a Star Wars movie.)

That "everyone dies" ending is why it brought back nostalgic feelings of enjoyable Star Wars RPGs. We had some deadly games where we discovered our PCs were less Han, Luke, Leia, and Chewy and more Biggs, Garven, Jek, and Wedge (yeah, some of us lived).

Quote from: Dimitrios;1117235I haven't been following the Disney Star Wars at all except for catching Rogue One on netflix (and liked it fine. Although "everybody dies" if a surprisingly downbeat ending for a Star Wars movie.)

You missed Ewoks: Battle For Endor then. The first 5 minutes was very depressing after all everyone went through and won in the first movie.

Having gotten my first hit of Schadenfreude (Oh... the gooooooodddd stuff...yas...), I feel compelled to comment on a recurring thread in the critical reviews, but I realized that setting up a whole new thread would be obnoxious and self aggrandizing, and I am nothing if not humble and self effacing.

The common refrain is simply that JJ did the best he could with what Rian left him. Its almost an apologia for how bad the film is.

And its bullshit.  

Did Rian absolutely wreck all the various built up threads JJ had given him? No doubt, not even a contention. Rian is proud of the wreckage he wrought.  

But lets be honest: JJ didn't have plans for those threads, he makes shit up as he goes along, and most of those threads were bullshit anyway. Snoke isn't a villain, he's a clown in a fancy bathrobe. Rey's parentage matters about as much as mine to a good story, and as for the state of the Rebellion... oops... I mean the Resistance, well:

What we are left with at the end of Rian's Disasterpiece is the setup for a decent movie. Not a carefully crafted masterpiece of a third act to a big arc necessarily (no foundation for it...), but..

We have a Hero (Rey, for all her... fine qualities),
We have a Villain (Kylo Ren)

Heck, they have a history together, even something like... dare I say it... chemistry? By the standards of this shit show trilogy they've actually got something akin to an arc going, one where people are legitimately interested, even invested, in how it plays out.

You've got the supporting crew all in one place (the Millennium Falcon), along with Rey, and they represent the total sum of the entire Resistance, a handful of people on a leaky boat, with the newly established totalitarian government on their bad side.

What should have followed was a relatively tight story of this plucky band of survivors, having had their teeth utterly kicked in during the last movie, in a daring last ditch effort to stop Kylo before he kills again, overcoming the hardship of their loss and triumphing over adversity.

You have plenty of room for giving Rey a proper character arc (as they apparently tried in RoS, for once), since all her awesome force powers didn't save the Resistance, meaning she'll have to come to grips with a fundamental human flaw for once.  Kylo and the First Order can stomp on the plucky heroes for two whole acts from a position of power, making them look like credible threats even to Rey. You can have character development, since everyone is trapped on the Falcon mostly, Leia can die with some dignity after feeling Luke's death (dumb though that was), saving us from this ghoulish attempt to resurrect dead actors a film AFTER their graceful, dignified final exit should have been shot...

Its a nice clean plot (I'd do a lot more to flesh it out... but I'm putting this like a filthy hobo squatter in this thread instead of a new one, so you get abbreviated version of cliff notes....), with plenty of tension and stakes and little room for absurdities, like plot churn secret map inside of secret map inside of... secret map!, or the nonsense with Palpatine, or how a new fleet of Star Destroyers helps the First Order, who, I'll remind you, WON in TLJ.

Seriously, the simplest thing in the world to save RoS would have been to just roll with what Rian left of the franchise. Hell, in a real sense it also would have given JJ what he craves most, that easy shot of nostalgia for older, better works to mask his inadequacies as a writer/director, since that setup (Ascendant First Order) Pretty much describes the state of the Empire in the original trilogy.

Quote from: Spike;1117293Having gotten my first hit of Schadenfreude (Oh... the gooooooodddd stuff...yas...), I feel compelled to comment on a recurring thread in the critical reviews, but I realized that setting up a whole new thread would be obnoxious and self aggrandizing, and I am nothing if not humble and self effacing.

The common refrain is simply that JJ did the best he could with what Rian left him. Its almost an apologia for how bad the film is.

And its bullshit.  

Most of the nerd reviews I've followed aknowledge that JJ Abrams aimed the franchise into the ground with Force Awakens, and Rian Johnson just stepped on the gas. Which I agree with.
This could have been a decent passing of the torch story, with cameos from the old actors. But they didn't build anything notable to replace them with. And so I suspect this is the last we'll hear of Rey and Finn and Poe in the cinemas as the sequel trilogy fades from the public conciousness. And quite honestly, good riddance.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1117159I didn't plan to see this in the theater. Then my wife bought us tickets to see it for my birthday. We went and saw it. She apologized afterwards.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Oh, that's just awesome, HappyDaze!:D And, I might add, HAPPY BIRTHDAY! I do hope you otherwise enjoyed yourself with your wife on your birthday!

With Star Wars, well, geesus, you know? I'm an original fan, having stood in line for fucking hours to see Star Wars when it first opened in theaters, back in the day. The first trilogy was great. I have met very few people over the intervening years since that didn't think the original Star Wars trilogy were quite awesome, and cool. Then, the second set of movies, the prequels. They were *ok*. The Clone Wars, and such. They had Liam Neeson, Samuel L. Jackson, decent writing, directing, and so on, with good special effects, and film production. I don't think they were as good as the original trilogy of Star Wars films, but they were decent.

The most recent set of movies for the Star Wars franchise, The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi--have been just garbage. Shit. Terrible woke SJW bullshit. Terrible writing, directing, plot, pacing, and characterization. I enjoy good actors--it doesn't matter to me what ethnicity or colour they are. Billy Dee Williams, Samuel L. Jackson, both black, are outstanding. Having Hispanic actors, and more women, ala *Rey* and the Asian girl in the recent film, isn't bad or even unwelcome *in principle*. They just aren't very good actors, but also this recent crop of mediocre women and minority actors have been given shitty writing, poor directing, and shitty plot and character development.

There's a good dozen and more top shelf minority actors, and a bunch of good women, as well, but the recent group aren't them. They suck. These recent movies have, aside from some technical aspects of special effects and camera work, etc, have all sucked entirely.

Now we have the Rise of Skywalker. I hear, as you have implied, that it sucks ass. The whole last set of recent Star Wars movies have been choking on shit, mediocrity, and poor direction, writing, and film crafting. It's sad to see. I have essentially written the whole franchise off.

I suppose from a philosophical angle, it does make me wonder though, with all the money pumped in, all the resources available, it isn't like the tools to make a good set of films wasn't there. At every step of the way, though, these last three films are just fucked up garbage. It makes me wonder, what the fuck were they *really* trying to do? These people are supposed to be professionals, talented and skilled in creative arts, and yet...they all just suck horribly. How can they go along, day after day of filming, writing, seeing the actors perform in the warm-ups, and look at each other, and say, "Yeah, man! These are fucking awesome movies!"

All three of these recent three films have been blasted nine ways to Sunday as shitty, terrible movies. After the ass whipping that The Force Awakens got, you would think that the production team for the second film, The Last Jedi, would have cleaned house, and made shit tight. But no, it went into a nose dive even faster into a chasm of shit. Now the third film, and it seems to be choking even more. These films are fucking worthless. They have taken the Star Wars franchise and thrown it away into the fucking gutter, and destroyed it. It has all been a sad waste of money, energy, and time. Utterly terrible and forgettable movies. All of the top people involved with these films should look at themselves in the mirror, and come to grips with the truth that they are fucked up, shitty, pathetic clowns, and they are unworthy of ever being involved with the Star Wars franchise, which gave the public an enduring classic film set that has stood as a renowned beacon and a standard for the last 40 years.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1117312Most of the nerd reviews I've followed aknowledge that JJ Abrams aimed the franchise into the ground with Force Awakens, and Rian Johnson just stepped on the gas. Which I agree with.
This could have been a decent passing of the torch story, with cameos from the old actors. But they didn't build anything notable to replace them with. And so I suspect this is the last we'll hear of Rey and Finn and Poe in the cinemas as the sequel trilogy fades from the public conciousness. And quite honestly, good riddance.

I haven't see that in the reviews I've watched for RoS, but I do agree. My theorycrafting is just to demonstrate that, for all Rian's demolishing every story beat he could reach, he actually left the "trilogy" well set up for a third film, contra to the normal comment.  "trilogy" story is shit from stem to stern, but insofar as it can be salvaged, RoS could have done it with a half competent author.

Quote from: Spike;1117320I haven't see that in the reviews I've watched for RoS, but I do agree. My theorycrafting is just to demonstrate that, for all Rian's demolishing every story beat he could reach, he actually left the "trilogy" well set up for a third film, contra to the normal comment.  "trilogy" story is shit from stem to stern, but insofar as it can be salvaged, RoS could have done it with a half competent author.

My opinion is that I predicted this entire farce would go like this the second I saw the 3rd death star on the movie poster. The entire series was dead at that point.

TFA did more damage then anything else, and it did a horrible job setting up the series because it sacrificed everything for nostalgia. RJs effort to make an even worse film was impressive, but the last film poured concrete into the coffin.
You can't recover from a fleet of deathstars. Thats just Gurren lagan clown shoes bullshit. Star Wars is now nostalgia bait spinoffs only.

Im curious how TLJ setup anything when it destroyed everything with no hooks.

Quote from: SHARK;1117317Greetings!

*Laughing* Oh, that's just awesome, HappyDaze!:D And, I might add, HAPPY BIRTHDAY! I do hope you otherwise enjoyed yourself with your wife on your birthday!

With Star Wars, well, geesus, you know? I'm an original fan, having stood in line for fucking hours to see Star Wars when it first opened in theaters, back in the day. The first trilogy was great. I have met very few people over the intervening years since that didn't think the original Star Wars trilogy were quite awesome, and cool. Then, the second set of movies, the prequels. They were *ok*. The Clone Wars, and such. They had Liam Neeson, Samuel L. Jackson, decent writing, directing, and so on, with good special effects, and film production. I don't think they were as good as the original trilogy of Star Wars films, but they were decent.

The most recent set of movies for the Star Wars franchise, The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi--have been just garbage. Shit. Terrible woke SJW bullshit. Terrible writing, directing, plot, pacing, and characterization. I enjoy good actors--it doesn't matter to me what ethnicity or colour they are. Billy Dee Williams, Samuel L. Jackson, both black, are outstanding. Having Hispanic actors, and more women, ala *Rey* and the Asian girl in the recent film, isn't bad or even unwelcome *in principle*. They just aren't very good actors, but also this recent crop of mediocre women and minority actors have been given shitty writing, poor directing, and shitty plot and character development.

There's a good dozen and more top shelf minority actors, and a bunch of good women, as well, but the recent group aren't them. They suck. These recent movies have, aside from some technical aspects of special effects and camera work, etc, have all sucked entirely.

Now we have the Rise of Skywalker. I hear, as you have implied, that it sucks ass. The whole last set of recent Star Wars movies have been choking on shit, mediocrity, and poor direction, writing, and film crafting. It's sad to see. I have essentially written the whole franchise off.

I suppose from a philosophical angle, it does make me wonder though, with all the money pumped in, all the resources available, it isn't like the tools to make a good set of films wasn't there. At every step of the way, though, these last three films are just fucked up garbage. It makes me wonder, what the fuck were they *really* trying to do? These people are supposed to be professionals, talented and skilled in creative arts, and yet...they all just suck horribly. How can they go along, day after day of filming, writing, seeing the actors perform in the warm-ups, and look at each other, and say, "Yeah, man! These are fucking awesome movies!"

All three of these recent three films have been blasted nine ways to Sunday as shitty, terrible movies. After the ass whipping that The Force Awakens got, you would think that the production team for the second film, The Last Jedi, would have cleaned house, and made shit tight. But no, it went into a nose dive even faster into a chasm of shit. Now the third film, and it seems to be choking even more. These films are fucking worthless. They have taken the Star Wars franchise and thrown it away into the fucking gutter, and destroyed it. It has all been a sad waste of money, energy, and time. Utterly terrible and forgettable movies. All of the top people involved with these films should look at themselves in the mirror, and come to grips with the truth that they are fucked up, shitty, pathetic clowns, and they are unworthy of ever being involved with the Star Wars franchise, which gave the public an enduring classic film set that has stood as a renowned beacon and a standard for the last 40 years.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Amusingly enough, JJ decided that Poe, the front-and-center character played by a Hispanic actor, needed to have a past as a spice runner to explain how he was such a good pilot--so now the brown guy is linked to drug running.

And thanks for the birthday wishes.

Just in case anyone needs some more Disney symbolism, the final battle consists of "not a navy, just people" collected by the Resistance diving in to disable the planet-killing weapons of the Final Order Star Destroyers. Note that these planet killing lasers are slung beneath the Star Destroyers and hang down like horse cocks. So, in effect, the goal of the battle is to castrate the ships. Dicks are bad!

Here's the great news about Star Wars!

Whenever any of us runs a Star Wars RPG campaign in the future, we can almost be guaranteed players will tell us how much better our campaign was to play than watching that crapass last trilogy!!

Quote from: Spike;1117293But lets be honest: JJ didn't have plans for those threads, he makes shit up as he goes along, and most of those threads were bullshit anyway. Snoke isn't a villain, he's a clown in a fancy bathrobe. Rey's parentage matters about as much as mine to a good story, and as for the state of the Rebellion... oops... I mean the Resistance, well:

I am not saying JJ Abrams is the greatest writer or anything (not really a fan of most of his movies). But this doesn't seem like such a bad thing for a Star Wars film, since Lucas didn't really have a plan either from what it seems (and you can see that when you watch A New Hope---and even Empire with that Luke and Leia kiss). But it did kind of need the second film to follow through with the seeds in order for the third to naturally flow. I actually was entertained by Last Jedi, but it definitely was weak as the second part in a trilogy (and didn't have any strong emotional pay off at the end or something to keep you wanting to watch the next episode like Empire did). But I did enjoy it. That said, while I haven't seen the third film yet, I can definitely see that it threw a massive wrench in the process for whoever had to write the third installment. It basically went from part one building to something (even if it wasn't clear) to part two saying 'nope we're building to nothing', which doesn't leave a lot of reason to make a third one.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1117324Im curious how TLJ setup anything when it destroyed everything with no hooks.

Was I unclear?  No matter.

Hooks are a luxury item when telling a story. Absolutely you expect to have them three stories into what we laughably call an 'arc' (for this series, anyway).  The big hook items that we think of, like Rey's parentage, are sideshows anyway.

From the point of telling a decent story TLJ actually left JJ in a good place to start.

1: Plucky band of heroes located in one spot, Check.
2: Compelling bad guy (Kylo Ren), Check*
3: Plucky band of heroes has serious obstacles to overcome, Check
4: Room for character arc for main hero (Rey, but only because they wrote Finn out of the movies, but left the character inexplicably hanging around like an appendix...), Check. **

Leave aside 'Star Wars', leave aside Roundhead Rian's scenery chewing (Especially interesting, seeing as he was directing the film and not acting...)... how is the above four points NOT a good place to start a compelling story?  



To avoid cluttering my point, I'll explain my two 'footnotes' down here, thought I thought I covered those in my original post.

* Kylo Ren, despite the jokes about Emo Darth, has been one of the better aspects of the films thus far, and actually seems to have improved as a character in TLJ, which is part and parcel of all the Reylo Shipping going on. He has(Had?) real chemistry with Rey, he has... or appears to have... complex motivations and even an arc that could go in several directions, at least as of the end of TLJ.  

** Rey is not a bad character in conception, only in execution.  At least one reviewer (The Critical Drinker) points out that JJ appears to have given Rey genuine struggles and failures for once, while Daisy Ridley seems to have turned in her lowest energy performance yet.  Prior to the sheer absurdities that RoS creates, having the Mostest Forces Eveh isn't actually all that useful when fighting a war. For all her power, at the end of TLJ, Rey has only just barely saved a tiny handful of her friends with the Rebellion, and done fuck-all to the Empire.  That is a potentially great 'low starting point' for a character growth arc... learning to overcome adversity (but, you know, not by Force Lightning an entire fleet from orbit, or magicking the dead back to life...).

Quote from: HappyDaze;1117326Just in case anyone needs some more Disney symbolism, the final battle consists of "not a navy, just people" collected by the Resistance diving in to disable the planet-killing weapons of the Final Order Star Destroyers. Note that these planet killing lasers are slung beneath the Star Destroyers and hang down like horse cocks. So, in effect, the goal of the battle is to castrate the ships. Dicks are bad!

The Gun is Good, the Penis is Evil?

Quote from: Spike;1117337Was I unclear?  No matter.

I have to disagree with just about everything you wrote because I disagree fundamentally on what you find good about these characters.

Kylo sucks. Darth fanboy is a terrible idea. Op sue as the main character is a terrible idea.
Slaughtering the previous cast and undoing thier happy ending in the most nihilistic and sloppy way possible to justify your story is just terrible.

None of what you listed even starts off on a good foot. Not saying it cant be done well, but tgeir not ingerently good elements.

The time for setup for these complex elements was TFA. And that disnt happen.

I would write more but 3 hours of sleep.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1117329Here's the great news about Star Wars!

Whenever any of us runs a Star Wars RPG campaign in the future, we can almost be guaranteed players will tell us how much better our campaign was to play than watching that crapass last trilogy!!

So your group has a lot of cynical angry people who criticize everything...

Ed C