TheRPGSite

Yeah, so a while ago they created a special D20 subforum, which had quite a few critics, and a few proponents as well. This kind of rubbed me the wrong way, but wasn't the end of the world.

The mods, those poor overworked volunteers, somehow manage to weed out every new post that talks about D20 and move it into the subspecialty forum. Now a thread that is intended for a general audience has been funneled into a subforum, where only a fraction of the total forum audience will see it. You know, just maybe a HERO fan is interested in WotC's marketing schemes.

It just seems to get worse every day. There's always a new rule that must get followed to the letter of RPG.net law, regardless of how much sense it makes. Don't the mods have enough work to do banning personal attacks or something? Do they really need to alienate more people by moving their posts inappropriately? Has it ever occurred to a mod that a post that mentions d20 may actually be about the industry as whole?

Argh. It's just frustrating. Someone needs to go over there and swat the mods with the stick of common sense and reason. Am I the only one who gets fed up with their crap?

No, but keep in mind that they've banned me three times. Not without reason, either.

meh, i've given up on that place.  the attitude bugs me and they don't talk about stuff i find all that interesting.  sometimes i'll poke into trouble tickets for a hoot, but i rarely find anything gaming-wise i want to follow.  there are other fora & boards that fit my needs much better.  :rolleyes:

FINALLY, A THREAD WHERE WE CAN BITCH ABOUT RPG.NET!

I find a lot of interesting stuff on rpg.net. The fact that I cannot post there just makes me check it less often - threads don't need to be checked as often if I'm not wondering what people are going to say in response to me.

I was about to go and have a look so I could post links to show what interesting threads they had today, but the site appears to be down. The forums come up blank, and the front page has at the top,
   Warning: mysql_select_db(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock' (11) in /var/www/rpgnet/slib/searchlib.php on line 9

Warning: mysql_select_db(): A link to the server could not be established in /var/www/rpgnet/slib/searchlib.php on line 9

Warning: mysql_connect(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock' (11) in /var/www/rpgnet/slib/forumlib.php on line 15

Warning: mysql_connect(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock' (11) in /var/www/rpgnet/slib/reviewlib.php on line 6

Warning: mysql_connect(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock' (11) in /var/www/rpgnet/slib/rsslib-read.php on line 7
What that means I have no idea, but it doesn't seem very interesting to me!

So there, that's my criticism of rpg.net - given all the donations they get, their maintenance standards are pretty poor, and their server seems to be pretty fucking unreliable.

But the posters often have interesting things to say. When, um, we can read them.

Quote from: Andy KFINALLY, A THREAD WHERE WE CAN BITCH ABOUT RPG.NET!

I thought you had to start an anti-RPG.net thread before you were allowed into the inner circle of theRPGsite.

Quote from: JimBobOzWhat that means I have no idea, but it doesn't seem very interesting to me!

It means that the database that stores all the posts is down.
 
Bad ju-ju in no mistake.

Yes, but the Inner Circle is a circle jerk.

Last one gets to eat the soggy biscuit.

i guess you're in, then :keke:

shouldn't this go in off topic?

edit:  too slow!

Quote from: Andy KFINALLY, A THREAD WHERE WE CAN BITCH ABOUT RPG.NET!

You, sir - you're a funny man.

Quote from: JimBobOzYes, but the Inner Circle is a circle jerk.

Last one gets to eat the soggy biscuit.

 What ? They run out of bagels??

- Ed C.

Quote from: GoOrangeI thought you had to start an anti-RPG.net thread before you were allowed into the inner circle of theRPGsite.

Shit... is that what I'm missing?  

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/mom2febgirls/Smilies/avatar_1871-1.gif)

The site owner wanted a separate forum for D&D and d20 in order to stimulate discussion.  So far it has worked very well, there are a lot more threads on those topics and less d20 thread crapping.  The mods just enforce the policy set by the site owner.

I like d20 games, along with just about everything else.  I just hit both forums.  Do I wish there was just the one forum?  Sure, I think it does a lot of good things.  But this topic has been beaten to death.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonBut this topic has been beaten to death.

Ain't that the fuckin' truth.

Quote from: GoOrangeYeah, so a while ago they created a special D20 subforum, which had quite a few critics, and a few proponents as well. This kind of rubbed me the wrong way, but wasn't the end of the world.

The mods, those poor overworked volunteers, somehow manage to weed out every new post that talks about D20 and move it into the subspecialty forum. Now a thread that is intended for a general audience has been funneled into a subforum, where only a fraction of the total forum audience will see it. You know, just maybe a HERO fan is interested in WotC's marketing schemes.

It just seems to get worse every day. There's always a new rule that must get followed to the letter of RPG.net law, regardless of how much sense it makes. Don't the mods have enough work to do banning personal attacks or something? Do they really need to alienate more people by moving their posts inappropriately? Has it ever occurred to a mod that a post that mentions d20 may actually be about the industry as whole?

Argh. It's just frustrating. Someone needs to go over there and swat the mods with the stick of common sense and reason. Am I the only one who gets fed up with their crap?

What should really get to you is the fact that when Darren, a mod, decided he wanted his thread that he started in the D20 forum (about, in the sense of "trashing", D&D) to get more attention, he went ahead and moved it to the Open forum.

So apparently if you're a Mod and you want to badmouth D&D in the Open forum you can go ahead and do so without consequence, but may the magic deer help you if you try to open a thread praising or even neutrally discussing D20 in the Open forum.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSo apparently if you're a Mod and you want to badmouth D&D in the Open forum you can go ahead and do so without consequence, but may the magic deer help you if you try to open a thread praising or even neutrally discussing D20 in the Open forum.

Apparently, on TheRPGSite, if you're a Mod you can have an entire forum of your own to bad mouth The Forge, RPG.net, women, goths and whatever else takes your fancy.
 
Seriously dude, get over it.  What the fuck do you care?

He's upset because after the latest initiation into the Inner Circle he ended up with the soggy bagel, while Settembrini jeered at him.

That's gotta be hard to swallow.

Quote from: JimBobOzSo there, that's my criticism of rpg.net - given all the donations they get, their maintenance standards are pretty poor, and their server seems to be pretty fucking unreliable.

Actually, the forums stretch the limits of the vBulletin software partly because of the version of the database that they are sitting on. Upgrading the software itself apparently is a monumental task for them, partly due to manpower and partly due to cost I think. OF course, VBulletin itself doesn't help because they don't support simple changes to the database schema (like adding indexes that help optimize queries). They consider these things hacks, when in reality the particulars of any database - the hardware it sits on, the usage, etc. - requires for the exact setup to be tweaked on an individual basis.

....or they could just purge all Tangency posts that are older than 30 days.


 Or is that too easy ?

- Ed C.

...Yeah I know , thats like asking them to spell the word kittens correctly.

Quote from: WilActually, the forums stretch the limits of the vBulletin software partly because of the version of the database that they are sitting on. Upgrading the software itself apparently is a monumental task for them, partly due to manpower and partly due to cost I think. OF course, VBulletin itself doesn't help because they don't support simple changes to the database schema (like adding indexes that help optimize queries). They consider these things hacks, when in reality the particulars of any database - the hardware it sits on, the usage, etc. - requires for the exact setup to be tweaked on an individual basis.

They've been needing to upgrade the software for years now, but they've hacked the everliving fuck out of the site so damn much, that upgrading is nigh impossible.  

At this point it would be easier for them to wipe the boards and start again with IPB or something, as vB doesn't actually handle forums that big very well. which itself is what fed their tendency to just hack the software instead of upgrading.

But they won't do that either.

It's rather frustrating that RPGnet isn't working.  I know that many people here don't like it, but it remains my main 'go to' place for RPG discussion/procrastination (with this place a close second).

Quote from: Tyberious FunkApparently, on TheRPGSite, if you're a Mod you can have an entire forum of your own to bad mouth The Forge, RPG.net, women, goths and whatever else takes your fancy.
 
Seriously dude, get over it.  What the fuck do you care?

The hypocrisy of it, and their efforts to deny the elitism that exists with the "modclique" there, fills me with righteous fury.

That, and I love pointing out how much of a cunt Darren is.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Koltar....or they could just purge all Tangency posts that are older than 30 days.


 Or is that too easy ?

- Ed C.

...Yeah I know , thats like asking them to spell the word kittens correctly.

That's actually not a bad idea. Or, take related groups of forums and have them each sitting on their own Vbulletin installation. Like many software solutions, Vbulletin is "sold" on the idea that it's easy to maintain and a one-stop implementation. The reality is with anything database related each implementation is going to be different and one size fits all doesn't always work.

Quote from: Koltar....or they could just purge all Tangency posts that are older than 30 days.

Of all the things about RPGnet, I think the thing that bothers me most is the way they allowed Tangency to bloom into a putrescent cancerous wart that is actively proud of how little it has to do with the rest of the forums. It's got nothing to do with RPGs or gaming; either it shouldn't be there at all, or should be vastly reduced, as you suggest.

ha ha!  Fuck with me rpg.net!  

It was my thread that the OP is referring to.  I had my grubby little hands on the SW Saga book and was very impressed with and interested in its design and marketing approach.  I wanted to discuss how it might impact the market and the hobby overall.  My first thread was a very brief review with lots of my own D20 "hate" in it.  This was moved in seconds to the D20 forum.  I went to Trouble Tickets and asked, very reasonably for it to get moved back.  Waited several hours for a response.  During that time, several other TT requests got a response, include one to move a D20 thread from Open into D20.

So I went back to Open and started another thread, this time without the review and a much clearer position on how this may affect the entire hobby (which I had understood was an allowable exception to discuss D20 things in Open).

This one was moved in about 20 minutes.  I tried to not blow my gasket, but was getting very close.  I was waiting for a response from the mods when Forumulus, the God of Internet Discussion became furious at ShannonA's hubris (or whoever the fuck is pulling his strings) and shot a lightning bolt at their servers.

I don't want to sound hysterical, but they are coming perilously close to censorship with this move.  I have been on the site for about a year and a half, 1,500 posts, some good hot arguments.  I've never been warned.  I've contributed to the index, encouraged friends to check it out.  And now I'm having my perfectly valid threads yanked around to fit their little vision of the world?

C.W. Richeson says it has been talked to death, which is true.  It has been talked to death by the users, but the Mods are skirting around the issue and ShannonA has said absolutely nothing of substance.  It's clear that many of the mods are not comfortable with the change and are towing the line.  And its clear that ShannonA's lack of proper communication on this issue is making the situation worse.  I would love to know what are the real motivations behind the change.

Quote from: walkerpC.W. Richeson says it has been talked to death, which is true.  It has been talked to death by the users, but the Mods are skirting around the issue and ShannonA has said absolutely nothing of substance.  It's clear that many of the mods are not comfortable with the change and are towing the line.  And its clear that ShannonA's lack of proper communication on this issue is making the situation worse.  I would love to know what are the real motivations behind the change.

There are very, very long threads in both Trouble Tickets and RP Open where Shannon has added a dozen posts clarifying all the issues.  *I* understand where threads are supposed to go from having read his posts and think it's fairly straightforward.  What would be useful would be if someone culled Shannon's responses into a Stickied "d20 Split FAQ" - maybe you should lobby for that?

The mods are in a crappy position, right?  They probably don't care for the split either, I agree, but as the people expected to administrate the boards they have to go with what the owner decides.  I don't see how they can weigh in on anything - they just do their best to put threads in the right place and ignore the grief they get for it.  Besides, if they did voice their objections it would be privately instead of in a big public circus.

Quote from: walkerpI don't want to sound hysterical, but they are coming perilously close to censorship with this move.

I have to laugh when I hear people invoke the term censorship when it comes to private venues.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonThe mods are in a crappy position, right?  They probably don't care for the split either, I agree, but as the people expected to administrate the boards they have to go with what the owner decides.  I don't see how they can weigh in on anything - they just do their best to put threads in the right place and ignore the grief they get for it.  Besides, if they did voice their objections it would be privately instead of in a big public circus.

Is there something preventing the mods from expressing their disapproval of a policy while also enforcing that policy?  Other than a unnecessary circle-the-wagons mentality?

Quote from: C.W.RichesonThere are very, very long threads in both Trouble Tickets and RP Open where Shannon has added a dozen posts clarifying all the issues.  *I* understand where threads are supposed to go from having read his posts and think it's fairly straightforward.  What would be useful would be if someone culled Shannon's responses into a Stickied "d20 Split FAQ" - maybe you should lobby for that?

I did lobby for it.  First in that large thread, then two other times where my thread was closed almost immediately. I also supported Jocelyn Robitaille's suggestion that we put a sticky summary post of all the interesting threads in Open on the D20 forum, to attract D20 forum users to Open.  Completely ignored.

While it was very clear how the new site was going to be organized and what threads were supposed to go where, it was not at all clear why the change was being made.  Nor was it ever acknowledged for a second that a large group of users were not comfortable with the change and had some very valid reasons for it.  But really the answer "to increase users and traffic" is just not good enough for me.  I agree that the site should continue to evolve and grow, but I don't necessarily agree that adding a D20 forum is the best way.  I would like some of the issues of timing, of encouraging fragmentation of an already fragmented hobby, or market share, addressed.  I'm sorry but as far as management goes that was one of the most piss-poor examples of top-down communication I have seen in a long time.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonThe mods are in a crappy position, right?  They probably don't care for the split either, I agree, but as the people expected to administrate the boards they have to go with what the owner decides.  I don't see how they can weigh in on anything - they just do their best to put threads in the right place and ignore the grief they get for it.  Besides, if they did voice their objections it would be privately instead of in a big public circus.

Of course. And I said that.  Obviously, they can't go in against it publicly without getting the boot or causing such an uproar.  It makes me curious as to how tight a rein is going on backstage and what motivates them to all tow the line.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI have to laugh when I hear people invoke the term censorship when it comes to private venues.

Well that's another discussion, but I am not sure how "private" a site whose entire exisence is based on its members is.  As I suggesed, I am probably overreaching with the term censorship.  But as a faithful user of the site, it certainly doesn't make me feel very kindly to the organizers.

Quote from: jrientsIs there something preventing the mods from expressing their disapproval of a policy while also enforcing that policy?  Other than a unnecessary circle-the-wagons mentality?

At a guess - and I hasten to add that I barely keep track of RPG.net these days - I suspect the moderators feel that such a stance would be damaging. It might be their feeling that if a moderator says something along the lines of "I don't agree with this rule, but I intend to enforce it anyway until it is changed", this would the risk of giving the posters in general the idea that that specific moderator is a "soft touch" - or worse, that the moderators in general are going to be reasonably lax about enforcing the rule in question - which is just going to encourage people to either break the rule outright or strain it considerably.

This is the sort of thinking people get into when they regard themselves as the Responsible Moderators and everyone else as the Irresponsible Posting Masses...

Quote from: walkerpWell that's another discussion, but I am not sure how "private" a site whose entire exisence is based on its members is.  As I suggesed, I am probably overreaching with the term censorship.  But as a faithful user of the site, it certainly doesn't make me feel very kindly to the organizers.

And notice how you are free to go elsewhere -- namely here -- and express yourself?

Even as far is it went, the didn't delete it, they just moved it. Not unlike a post about movies or LARPS would get shuttled off to another forum.

That's pretty unlike anything really deserving the term censorship.

Don't get me wrong... there's some things I don't like about the RPGnet decision. But censorship it ain't.

We keep fooling ourselves with the concept that an online forum is a community.  It's a community in that you meet many people with relatively similar interests, and the forum gradually takes on a certain colour.  But it's not a community in that, no matter how groovy the group may be, the forum is always owned and operated by one person or a very small number of persons.  It's not a democracy, it's not consensus-based, it's not any of that coolio bullshit we gamers so love.  

AFAIK, RPGNet belongs to Shannon Appelcline.  The Forge belongs to Ron Edwards and Clinton Nixon.  The RPG Site belongs to a self-appointed pundit.  Gamecraft belongs to Levi Kornelsen.  Story Games belongs to Andrew Kitkowski.  Etc., etc.  Some of these guys are really reasonable, some are pains in the ass.  

But none of these sites are operated by vote, and we just have to get that through our heads.  It took me a while to resign myself to that but I think I got it now.

I guess so... I don't know, seems kind of depressing.  I mean, I'm fine if a forum is going to be dominated by the style and thinking of the person who "owns" it, but there is still going to be some proportion of input by the people who populate it.  It's not quite the same thing as a commercial site, which is driven by the people who sponsor it.  rpg.net gets some money from sponsors, but people also donate their own money.  Doesn't that give them some kind of input power, no matter how small?  I was seriously considering buying a member ship a couple months ago because I made a bit of internet money on eBay.  I'm glad I bought a bunch of games and donated to a bunch of podcasts instead.

All I can say is, I wish.  :(   I used to spend a lot of time on RPGNet (and enjoying your posts, among others) but I got very disappointed with the realization that this was still somebody else's house.

Quote from: walkerpBut as a faithful user of the site, it certainly doesn't make me feel very kindly to the organizers.

Screw RPG.net, you should stay here.  I think your ideas would gain more credence and you'd have more fun here than there.

What bugs me is that this particular decision doesn't make any kind of sense, and I did read Shannon's explanations. I've disagreed with rpg.net decisions in the past, but I do get why they've been implemented.

But to start a d20 forum in 2007? As opposed to 2000 through 2003? Beats me.

I was of the opinion that it might be a good idea, but i've changed my mind in the last week or so. A divide has been noticeable in that time, one that was always there but has now started to widen as there is a very physical divide on the forum. There's more us & them than was obvious before and i can only conclude this is a sympton of the forum split.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityBut to start a d20 forum in 2007? As opposed to 2000 through 2003? Beats me.

Totally agree.  From a strategic standpoint, even if you don't give a crap about community, the timing is really bizarre.  It really makes me think there is more going on than ShannonA is willing to discuss.  Some big sponsor who made a deal with them or something.  I know I'm going to get attacked for making up conspiracy theories (as happened over on rpg.net) but there are just so many holes in his explanation.  And if you see how clearly he communicates on other forum splits, you can tell that this isn't his normal manner of handling his business.

Ah, the RPGNet D20 suburb...  I rarely play D20, I don't like D20, I don't hang out on D20 threads (neither to praise nor to bash).  And yet I'd much rather have all RPGs together in one big forum.  Our hobby isn't so big that we need to break it up into smaller groups, and emphasize splits rather than commonalities.

Quote from: GoOrangeI thought you had to start an anti-RPG.net thread before you were allowed into the inner circle of theRPGsite.

I love RPGnet :)

I've gotten banned a couple times for reasons I can't remember (probably for being rude).  Each time it happened I didn't feel I was screwed, and couldn't wait to get bock on the site after the ban was lifted.

Guess I don't mind playing by the rules...for the most part I don't even have to check myself to do it.

When the D20 forum split off I ws very vocal about not likeing it (still don't).  Funny thing is I thought it would be the Open forum I would be visiting and the D20 forum would be the big pain in the ass.  As it is, I find all the interesting threads on the D20 forum now (especially with Star Wars Saga being my primary interest and game I'm GMing for the summer, and D&D being the other game I'm currently playing).  I check Open once a day, but have hardly posted there at all anymore.

Makes me wonder if I should just go to Enworld or something?

Quote from: grubmanWhen the D20 forum split off I ws very vocal about not likeing it (still don't).  Funny thing is I thought it would be the Open forum I would be visiting and the D20 forum would be the big pain in the ass.  As it is, I find all the interesting threads on the D20 forum now

Yeah. It seems like -- perhaps unsurprisingly -- the d20 forum has a bit more focus. Yeah, I like to speak about RPGs separate from the system I am speaking of (and I was just about to start such a thread when the split happened), but do find that in the open forum, I do have to wade through dozens of posts about some craptastic game I don't care about to get to that one post about either a game I do care about or of general RPG interest.

Of course, the d20 forum is bit to weed through now too, since the flurry of SW Saga threads hit.

There sure are a lot of current RPGnet posters hanging out over here. :)  There are a lot of banned former RPGnet posters to.  Most of them are voices that I have missed.

I'm not all that happy with the d20 forum split either.  I asked the mod team for clarification on why Darren was able to move his own d20 thread for purposes of exposure in open and I got the "it isn't what you think" response.  Then they changed the thread title so that it would reduce the bitching about a moderator moving his own D&D thread into open for exposure purposes.  It was a nice dose of inconsistency bordering on hypocrisy really.

I reported the attitude of Darren in that thread to.  I don't feel that there is any need for a moderator to swagger around like John Wayne and threaten the community with punishments just because they are in a bad mood.  Very immature behavior if you ask me.

So yeah, the mod team has been rubbing me the wrong way for a while now.  I realize what a difficult task they have, but I see no reason for the attitudes.  Moderators can do their job without the snark (there are a couple of good ones).  I get along with just about anyone and it takes a lot before I sour on any particular person.  I have one RPGnet poster on my RPGnet ignore list and only because they are the most condescending and arrogant ass that I have ever encountered on the net.  That is quite a feat! :D

Anyway, hello to all my friends from RPGnet and to those on the RPGSite!

That still doesn't make sense to me.

 Why not have a HERO System sub forum?

 A GURPS  sub forum?

 A White Wolf subforum?

 An Exalted seperate forum? (Oh right they wouldn't do that . No Need)

A RIFTS/Palladium seperate forum??

 I know that D20/D&D is the biggest thing out there...but some of the discussions related to it can also help people with similiar problems in other RPG  system campaigns.


- Ed C.

Hello, Paladin!  Nice to see you.  :)

Heya, Paladin!  Welcome to theRPGsite!

Quote from: KoltarI know that D20/D&D is the biggest thing out there...but some of the discussions related to it can also help people with similiar problems in other RPG  system campaigns.

Yep.  Perhaps even more importantly, there are better D20 forums out there.  If the only game you want to talk about is D20 (or GURPS, or whatever), you don't think of RPGNet first.  You go to ENWorld, for example.  RPGNet is supposedly for people wholike many games.  Why slice smaller portions off your gaming menu?

My sentiments exactly, Anenome.  It makes no sense.  They had a real sweet spot there (somewhere between Story-Games and therpgsite, perhaps?) and just shattered it.

Quote from: AnemoneYep.  Perhaps even more importantly, there are better D20 forums out there.  If the only game you want to talk about is D20 (or GURPS, or whatever), you don't think of RPGNet first.  You go to ENWorld, for example.  RPGNet is supposedly for people wholike many games.  Why slice smaller portions off your gaming menu?

Well, its different in the RPGnet d20 forum than it is at ENWorld. ENWorld has its own ghetto (the d20 modern and other forum) and as a consequence, you'll find most of the major talk in the general forum about D&D. The modern forum is pretty quiet, and D20 Modern is almost a has-been game over there.

I've seen a lot more d20 modern talk in the last few weeks than I've seen at months over on ENWorld.

Yes, the D20 forum is a bad idea, at the very least because it's not going to do what it's intended to do as well as other actions would. But I've spoken about this at length already in threads people have most likely already read. So...

Quote from: KoltarWhat ? They run out of bagels??

Thank god I only came here for the margaritas and hot wings then.

...

But now I wonder if it's safe to use the blue cheese dressing. 0_o

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat should really get to you is the fact that when Darren, a mod, decided he wanted his thread that he started in the D20 forum (about, in the sense of "trashing", D&D) to get more attention, he went ahead and moved it to the Open forum.

Actually, it was moved partly at my suggestion, as it really had very little to do with D&D or D20 at all, and had already moved to discussing Cthulhu within the first page.

But now I know what he meant by having to 'burn some karma'. I kinda feel bad now, but luckily I have pills for that.

[*pop*]

Quote from: J ArcaneThey've been needing to upgrade the software for years now

For some reason this reminds me of that tampon commercial with the blond chick saying you should 'upgrade'.

Quote from: DrFaustOf all the things about RPGnet, I think the thing that bothers me most is the way they allowed Tangency to bloom into a putrescent cancerous wart that is actively proud of how little it has to do with the rest of the forums. It's got nothing to do with RPGs or gaming; either it shouldn't be there at all, or should be vastly reduced, as you suggest.

Tangency is the 'waste heat' that inevitably emerges as a result of a successful community forum. In a way it's the essentially community aspect refined out of whatever the specific forum is 'about'.

And I don't see it a waste, because I consider RPG.net to be a community first, and a source for RPG information second.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI have to laugh when I hear people invoke the term censorship when it comes to private venues.

Uh oh. Button pressed...

If I had a $1.50 everytime an statement like this was used to defend the actions of tyrants, I would be able to live comfortably...

...if only I wasn't living in a dictatorship as a result.

You do realize that the only way you can post to the internet in any other fashion besides a private venue is to purchase your own T1 line and server and create your OWN private venue, right? Everything else, your phone/broadband connection, your email, even your current domain name, is owned by someone else, and the owner can demand you follow new restrictions in using it at any time, for any reason, without explanation.

The only things that stop them are competition and the government. There's a good reason first world countries have laws regarding what you can and cannot do with, and even what you can consider to be, private property.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadAnd notice how you are free to go elsewhere -- namely here -- and express yourself?

Like those Mexicans have the freedom to come to America.

Or better yet, how users have the freedom to use Linux instead of Windows.

And (just because I know someone is going to call the metaphor police) you know what all three of these have in common?

They all require you to abandon a community or take a large chunk of it with you when exercising that freedom. So if people are there because of the community, then they DON'T have the freedom to choose something else.

Quote from: GoOrangeThe mods, those poor overworked volunteers, somehow manage to weed out every new post that talks about D20 and move it into the subspecialty forum.

Actually, they lumped pretty much every post and review about previous editions of D&D into that forum, as well. Hence why many perceive it as being, not the "d20 Section" of the site but the "Shit We're Too Good For" section of the site. They should take some time to sort that out.

Quote from: chaosvoyagerLike those Mexicans have the freedom to come to America.

Mexicans have the freedom to come to America, however they do not have the freedom to not follow the rules that everyone else who wants to come to America has to follow...

Quote from: KoltarWhat ? They run out of bagels??

- Ed C.

Anyone caught circle jerking with a bagel (except blueberry, which isn't really a bagel at all) will face the wrath of the... Well, I can't tell you who they are. but you certainly won't expect them.

Dum dum dummmmm!

Quote from: chaosvoyagerBut now I wonder if it's safe to use the blue cheese dressing. 0_o

It's safe. Just don't ask yourself why it's blue.

Quote from: PaladinCAModerators can do their job without the snark

Preach it, brother!

Seanchai

Quote from: PaladinCA... Anyway, hello to all my friends from RPGnet and to those on the RPGSite!

Hey, nice to see you here, PaladinCA!  :)

Quote from: C.W.RichesonThe mods are in a crappy position, right?  They probably don't care for the split either, I agree, but as the people expected to administrate the boards they have to go with what the owner decides.  I don't see how they can weigh in on anything - they just do their best to put threads in the right place and ignore the grief they get for it.  Besides, if they did voice their objections it would be privately instead of in a big public circus.

Most of them "don't care for the split" for a totally different reason though; not because they think it turns D20 into a ghetto topic of the site (which it does) but because they are afraid it will give too much attention to D20. They'd rather D20 wasn't discussed at all except in threads like Darrens where they get to shit all over the game.

RPGpundit

Quote from: PaladinCAThere sure are a lot of current RPGnet posters hanging out over here. :)  There are a lot of banned former RPGnet posters to.  Most of them are voices that I have missed.

I'm not all that happy with the d20 forum split either.  I asked the mod team for clarification on why Darren was able to move his own d20 thread for purposes of exposure in open and I got the "it isn't what you think" response.  Then they changed the thread title so that it would reduce the bitching about a moderator moving his own D&D thread into open for exposure purposes.  It was a nice dose of inconsistency bordering on hypocrisy really.

I reported the attitude of Darren in that thread to.  I don't feel that there is any need for a moderator to swagger around like John Wayne and threaten the community with punishments just because they are in a bad mood.  Very immature behavior if you ask me.

So yeah, the mod team has been rubbing me the wrong way for a while now.  I realize what a difficult task they have, but I see no reason for the attitudes.  Moderators can do their job without the snark (there are a couple of good ones).  I get along with just about anyone and it takes a lot before I sour on any particular person.  I have one RPGnet poster on my RPGnet ignore list and only because they are the most condescending and arrogant ass that I have ever encountered on the net.  That is quite a feat! :D

Anyway, hello to all my friends from RPGnet and to those on the RPGSite!

Hehe... I remember reading what you'd posted in RPG.net regarding Darren's thread and thinking "shit, someone's got to invite this guy to come to theRPGsite"!

Welcome aboard!

RPGPundit

Quote from: chaosvoyagerActually, it was moved partly at my suggestion, as it really had very little to do with D&D or D20 at all, and had already moved to discussing Cthulhu within the first page.

But now I know what he meant by having to 'burn some karma'. I kinda feel bad now, but luckily I have pills for that.

Bullshit. I'd read some 10 pages down and it was still mostly about talking about how badly D20 sucks.
Also, whether or not you mentioned it is irrelevant to the fact that Darren did it, and was allowed to do it because he was a mod.  If you had been the one who started that thread, they wouldn't have let you move it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: chaosvoyagerLike those Mexicans have the freedom to come to America.

Or better yet, how users have the freedom to use Linux instead of Windows.

And (just because I know someone is going to call the metaphor police) you know what all three of these have in common?

They all require you to abandon a community or take a large chunk of it with you when exercising that freedom. So if people are there because of the community, then they DON'T have the freedom to choose something else.

So. This still isn't censorship in anything but the most histrionic sense.

This is such a funny thread...please keep it coming!

:D

Quote from: Andy KFINALLY, A THREAD WHERE WE CAN BITCH ABOUT RPG.NET!

Yeah, because we know there has never been a thread where we can bitch about rpg.net here.  :)

Quote from: GoOrangeYeah, so a while ago they created a special D20 subforum, which had quite a few critics, and a few proponents as well. This kind of rubbed me the wrong way, but wasn't the end of the world.

The mods, those poor overworked volunteers, somehow manage to weed out every new post that talks about D20 and move it into the subspecialty forum. Now a thread that is intended for a general audience has been funneled into a subforum, where only a fraction of the total forum audience will see it. You know, just maybe a HERO fan is interested in WotC's marketing schemes.

It just seems to get worse every day. There's always a new rule that must get followed to the letter of RPG.net law, regardless of how much sense it makes. Don't the mods have enough work to do banning personal attacks or something? Do they really need to alienate more people by moving their posts inappropriately? Has it ever occurred to a mod that a post that mentions d20 may actually be about the industry as whole?

Argh. It's just frustrating. Someone needs to go over there and swat the mods with the stick of common sense and reason. Am I the only one who gets fed up with their crap?

One of the main reasons I barely go to rpg.net anymore is because it has become a hostile place to go and you have to watch every word you say.

Yes, therpgsite can be hostile but I don't have to worry that one little slipup will get me banned.

That is I think part of the appeal of The RPG Site and my forum (for a small part), there are forums you can go to to talk about rpgs and not have to worry about every word that comes out of your mouth.

Quote from: WilThat's actually not a bad idea. Or, take related groups of forums and have them each sitting on their own Vbulletin installation. Like many software solutions, Vbulletin is "sold" on the idea that it's easy to maintain and a one-stop implementation. The reality is with anything database related each implementation is going to be different and one size fits all doesn't always work.

Well actually they set up a seperate Sci FI Discussion forum (I am guessing on the same server) and that is using PhpBB.

Seriously, I bet if they got rid of Tangency and the other non-rpg related forums it would help a great deal.

But they wont

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhat bugs me is that this particular decision doesn't make any kind of sense, and I did read Shannon's explanations. I've disagreed with rpg.net decisions in the past, but I do get why they've been implemented.

But to start a d20 forum in 2007? As opposed to 2000 through 2003? Beats me.

It appears to be doing really well.

It doesn't appear that either Open or the D20 forums are suffering at all from the seperation.

I don't see a problem.

Quote from: grubmanFunny thing is I thought it would be the Open forum I would be visiting and the D20 forum would be the big pain in the ass.  As it is, I find all the interesting threads on the D20 forum now (especially with Star Wars Saga being my primary interest and game I'm GMing for the summer, and D&D being the other game I'm currently playing).  I check Open once a day, but have hardly posted there at all anymore.

I feel the same way, both with not liking the split but at the same time finding the D20 forum more useful.  For me at least, the signal-to-noise ratio in the D20 forum is a lot lower than it is in Open.

Quote from: Blue DevilIt appears to be doing really well.

It doesn't appear that either Open or the D20 forums are suffering at all from the seperation.

I don't see a problem.

Shhh.  That's not the point.  The point is to have excuses to bitch about RPGnet!  Silly Devil.

Personally, I've never witnessed any hostility, never had to "watch my words", never seen any "mod abuse", etc., etc., etc.  ad nauseum.  I make no claim that that's true for everyone.  Obviously some people have had problems.  It's certainly not universal, though.  RPGnet has always been a pleasant place with interesting conversations.  I tend to avoid the various argument threads, which takes little effort.  I didn't even notice the new D20 sub-forum had been created.  I do notice it has a prominent link on the front page, so I see nothing "ghetto" about it.

I've been a regular there since it's initial incarnation.  I have nothing to complain about at all.

You know how when a group of friends splits up over an argument, or a couple splits up?  Both sides usually spend the next few months trash-talking each other and finding fault in everything they do.  This reminds me a lot of that.

I know...maybe Pundit should create a new Sub-Forum dedicated to trashing RPGnet!  :D

Quote from: joewolzScrew RPG.net, you should stay here.  I think your ideas would gain more credence and you'd have more fun here than there.

Bandanna face FTW.

Quote from: AnemoneWe keep fooling ourselves with the concept that an online forum is a community.  It's a community in that you meet many people with relatively similar interests, and the forum gradually takes on a certain colour.  But it's not a community in that, no matter how groovy the group may be, the forum is always owned and operated by one person or a very small number of persons.  

I think the best analogy is a restaurant or pub. If you go there enough, and see other regulars there enough, it'll start to feel like "our place." But the owners can kick you out at any time for no reason at all, because really it's their place. Or it could get closed down for not paying rent or to build a shopping mall or something - at any time, someone could pull the plug, because it's their place. It's never really ours in a practical sense.

Which is shitty, but there you go.

So, you know, if the pub owner wants to make one section of the pub for people drinking beer, and another section for people drinking spirits, and then when the guy with the beers buys a double bourbon for his buddy, move them both out into the spirits section, well it's a bit crazy but what can you do.

Well if its a "Pub" - the doors have been boarded up and locked for close to two days now  with no note from the proprieter on whats going on.

 I have noticed folks who have accounts ands handles at all three forums I frequent showing up more on here and on SJG since the downing of rpg.net yesterday.  

- Ed C.

Funny, I generally find it more newsworthy whent they're up.

Oh well, my guess is that Tangency represents a significant percentage of their traffic and thus ad revenue.

PaladinCA, walkerp, welcome to our nasty, hateful corner of the net (if propaganda is to be believed). The waitress will be out with your margaritas in a moment.

More on topic, I wonder if people who paid Skotos for a yearly membership get credit back for the days the site's down? I'm betting no.

Frankly, the outages should be humiliating to the staff and Skotos. Modthesims2.com, which runs on donations and small Google ads, pulls 15 terabytes a month in bandwidth with an active user base of several hundred thousand and goes down about once every two years. The last time being because Paypal fucked them.

rpg.net still seems to be zoinked as i type, which wouldn't be a problem except for the fact i'd asked for some help on how the fuck Galactic Civilizations 2 works. Bloody games.

Quote from: signoftheserpentrpg.net still seems to be zoinked as i type, which wouldn't be a problem except for the fact i'd asked for some help on how the fuck Galactic Civilizations 2 works. Bloody games.

What is that? A computer game? we do have an electronic games forum.. maybe someone here knows, you should try to go and ask.

RPGPundit

I notice the rpg.net mods have started coming here as well.

So much for our secret identities!

Quote from: signoftheserpentrpg.net still seems to be zoinked as i type, which wouldn't be a problem except for the fact i'd asked for some help on how the fuck Galactic Civilizations 2 works. Bloody games.

Well, it annoys me because we had two reviews for WWII: Operation Jedburgh slated to appear on Friday.  But, since I don't pay them for membership I suppose I can't complain.  Much.  

Pete

Quote from: Koltar....or they could just purge all Tangency posts that are older than 30 days.


 Or is that too easy ?

- Ed C.

...Yeah I know , thats like asking them to spell the word kittens correctly.

So true.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhat bugs me is that this particular decision doesn't make any kind of sense, and I did read Shannon's explanations. I've disagreed with rpg.net decisions in the past, but I do get why they've been implemented.

But to start a d20 forum in 2007? As opposed to 2000 through 2003? Beats me.

maybe D&D4e is closer to release than we have been lead to believe ?
RPGnet may be just gearing for D&D4e in the long haul.

Hell just look Monte Cook is leaving the rpg bus, his last rpg book will be McWoD d20.

Quote from: PaladinCAThere sure are a lot of current RPGnet posters hanging out over here. :)  There are a lot of banned former RPGnet posters to.  Most of them are voices that I have missed.

I'm not all that happy with the d20 forum split either.  I asked the mod team for clarification on why Darren was able to move his own d20 thread for purposes of exposure in open and I got the "it isn't what you think" response.  Then they changed the thread title so that it would reduce the bitching about a moderator moving his own D&D thread into open for exposure purposes.  It was a nice dose of inconsistency bordering on hypocrisy really.

I reported the attitude of Darren in that thread to.  I don't feel that there is any need for a moderator to swagger around like John Wayne and threaten the community with punishments just because they are in a bad mood.  Very immature behavior if you ask me.

So yeah, the mod team has been rubbing me the wrong way for a while now.  I realize what a difficult task they have, but I see no reason for the attitudes.  Moderators can do their job without the snark (there are a couple of good ones).  I get along with just about anyone and it takes a lot before I sour on any particular person.  I have one RPGnet poster on my RPGnet ignore list and only because they are the most condescending and arrogant ass that I have ever encountered on the net.  That is quite a feat! :D

Anyway, hello to all my friends from RPGnet and to those on the RPGSite!

Welcome Aboard Paladin. I enjoy your posts over at rpgnet btw.

The rpgnet mods are always crass i have noticed.  They need to change the mods there more often, and not allow repeat mods (old mods returning to mod-hood). There are a few that just on my nerves for some reason with the way to talk to people in general. Some are barely vailed attacks but they get away with it.

One rule I have noticed from others over there. Never say negative things about a Mods Pet rpg. That is a fast way to get banned it seems.

Quote from: grubmanI love RPGnet :)

I've gotten banned a couple times for reasons I can't remember (probably for being rude).  Each time it happened I didn't feel I was screwed, and couldn't wait to get bock on the site after the ban was lifted.

Guess I don't mind playing by the rules...for the most part I don't even have to check myself to do it.

When the D20 forum split off I ws very vocal about not likeing it (still don't).  Funny thing is I thought it would be the Open forum I would be visiting and the D20 forum would be the big pain in the ass.  As it is, I find all the interesting threads on the D20 forum now (especially with Star Wars Saga being my primary interest and game I'm GMing for the summer, and D&D being the other game I'm currently playing).  I check Open once a day, but have hardly posted there at all anymore.

Makes me wonder if I should just go to Enworld or something?

I've found myself in the D20 forum more too, and I'm not a d20 fan really. But I do not Hate d20 either.
Yes the SW Saga posts and McWoD is what seem to be interesting me at the moment for some reason. That I lurk for Dark*Sun or ravenloft threads.

Quote from: KoltarWell if its a "Pub" - the doors have been boarded up and locked for close to two days now  with no note from the proprieter on whats going on.

 I have noticed folks who have accounts ands handles at all three forums I frequent showing up more on here and on SJG since the downing of rpg.net yesterday.  

- Ed C.

I have noticed that too ;) :D

Quote from: RezendevousI feel the same way, both with not liking the split but at the same time finding the D20 forum more useful.  For me at least, the signal-to-noise ratio in the D20 forum is a lot lower than it is in Open.

I've found, apart from Nelzie (annoying twat that he is), the frothing anti-D&D hysteria is mostly gone from the d20 forums as well, as the rabid anti-D&Ders have to check into a whole nother subforum to decide what hate to spew this time.

Theres a few exceptions, sure, but over all theres just a lot of discussion about D20, and very little hate.  I was against the split at first, but I don't mind it now, cause every thread isn't devolving into "What I hate about D&D".

Quote from: Tom BShhh.  That's not the point.  The point is to have excuses to bitch about RPGnet!  Silly Devil.

Personally, I've never witnessed any hostility, never had to "watch my words", never seen any "mod abuse", etc., etc., etc.  ad nauseum.  I make no claim that that's true for everyone.  Obviously some people have had problems.  It's certainly not universal, though.  RPGnet has always been a pleasant place with interesting conversations.  I tend to avoid the various argument threads, which takes little effort.  I didn't even notice the new D20 sub-forum had been created.  I do notice it has a prominent link on the front page, so I see nothing "ghetto" about it.

I've been a regular there since it's initial incarnation.  I have nothing to complain about at all.

You know how when a group of friends splits up over an argument, or a couple splits up?  Both sides usually spend the next few months trash-talking each other and finding fault in everything they do.  This reminds me a lot of that.

I know...maybe Pundit should create a new Sub-Forum dedicated to trashing RPGnet!  :D

Same here, and I've had some doozy arguements.  The few times I've been warned, I had a mod PM me telling me he wasn't registering the warning officially, cause he agreed with what I said, and the guy was being an annoying troll who quickly got banned anyway.  

Any dispute I've had, they've responded to me civilly and been forthright with their interpretation.  I've seen much less of the "cult of personality" surrounding the mods, and the new one - Aoibhill, Nina, etc - generally are pretty low-key.  I miss A2K's adminning, as how can anyone be pissed off with the nicest librarian in the world?  I understand a lot of people's beef with Darren, and while I haven't experienced it first hand I can certainly see where others are coming from.

Oh, and there IS a subforum dedicated to trashing RPG.net - its Pundits Forum.

Quote from: KoltarWell if its a "Pub" - the doors have been boarded up and locked for close to two days now  with no note from the proprieter on whats going on.

 I have noticed folks who have accounts ands handles at all three forums I frequent showing up more on here and on SJG since the downing of rpg.net yesterday.  

- Ed C.

Eh, there's a note if you know where to look, it just isn't posted up on the front door.

-Thornhammer

Quote from: KoltarWell if its a "Pub" - the doors have been boarded up and locked for close to two days now  with no note from the proprieter on whats going on.

Except for the prompt notice through LJ and the Skotos server status page.

http://community.livejournal.com/rpgnettangency/20260.html

Quote from: Lacrioxusmaybe D&D4e is closer to release than we have been lead to believe ?
RPGnet may be just gearing for D&D4e in the long haul.

Dude, IF WoTC was planning to betray all of its customers by having boldfacedly lied in their statements that D&D 4e is in no way shape or form coming soon, there's still no fucking way on earth RPG.net's modclique would be informed about it. In the "Industry" (in other words, in the eyes of WoTC, who ARE the only actual member of the REAL "industry"), RPG.net is a nonentity.

Mike Mearls (the chief game designer for Wizards these days) spends more time on this forum than on RPG.net.  Trust me, if there was about to be a 4e released, there's no fucking way that RPG.net would be told about it beforehand.

RPGPundit

I lurked at RPG.net once or twice but mostly just read the reviews there. Until one day, I wanted to read a discussion at the bottom of a review and found out my ISP had been banned. I thought it was an honest mistake and tried again later, still banned.

I sent a very nice email to RPG.net admin asking how my ISP had been banned when I had never even signed up to their site (much less made any posts). I never saw anything on their pages that suggested that I should sign up to read reviews and not partake in discussions.

My email was summarily ignored. And I have no idea if they ever even addressed it as I moved a month or two later and subsequently got a new ISP.

That left a bad taste in my mouth, so I haven't been back since.

Quote from: KazI lurked at RPG.net once or twice but mostly just read the reviews there. Until one day, I wanted to read a discussion at the bottom of a review and found out my ISP had been banned. I thought it was an honest mistake and tried again later, still banned.

I sent a very nice email to RPG.net admin asking how my ISP had been banned when I had never even signed up to their site (much less made any posts). I never saw anything on their pages that suggested that I should sign up to read reviews and not partake in discussions.

My email was summarily ignored. And I have no idea if they ever even addressed it as I moved a month or two later and subsequently got a new ISP.

That left a bad taste in my mouth, so I haven't been back since.

Question: do you have any friends or relatives that might also have posted to RPG.net? Anyone that even might have been in the same household? They only ban IP ranges, not ISPs, but if you had some small ISP and they were having issues they may have banned the entire range. They also may have had issues with spamming or something similar from that IP range.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralI've found, apart from Nelzie (annoying twat that he is), the frothing anti-D&D hysteria is mostly gone from the d20 forums as well, as the rabid anti-D&Ders have to check into a whole nother subforum to decide what hate to spew this time.

I've often heard about this frothing anti-D&D hysteria on RPG.net (though usually it's announced with more hyperbole, so kudos for your restraint) but I can't say I've really seen any in my short time there (only about ten months).  Is the frothing hysteria mostly history pre-dating my membership or am I just not looking in the right places?

Quote from: KoltarWell if its a "Pub" - the doors have been boarded up and locked for close to two days now  with no note from the proprieter on whats going on.

 I have noticed folks who have accounts ands handles at all three forums I frequent showing up more on here and on SJG since the downing of rpg.net yesterday.

The latest news, and link to where to find more news, is up in the News section of the RPG FunZone.  Which, since I haven't put it in my sig, I suppose would be a good idea to give a link to. . .

RPG FunZone (http://rpgfunzone.30.forumer.com/)

Quote from: HalfjackI've often heard about this frothing anti-D&D hysteria on RPG.net (though usually it's announced with more hyperbole, so kudos for your restraint) but I can't say I've really seen any in my short time there (only about ten months).  Is the frothing hysteria mostly history pre-dating my membership or am I just not looking in the right places?

It was there circa 2000 through 2004, and then petered out. D&D will always have its detractors, but there's no dogpiling or systematic kewler-than-thou-ism any longer (that treatment is reserved for Palladium games).

Among sundry other reasons, the rpg.net-specific overlap between 3.x fans and Exalted fans is too massive for that nowadays. 3.x and Exalted have been the two numerically most popular games on rpg.net for a long time now.

Quote from: RPGPunditDude, IF WoTC was planning to betray all of its customers by having boldfacedly lied in their statements that D&D 4e is in no way shape or form coming soon, there's still no fucking way on earth RPG.net's modclique would be informed about it. In the "Industry" (in other words, in the eyes of WoTC, who ARE the only actual member of the REAL "industry"), RPG.net is a nonentity.

Mike Mearls (the chief game designer for Wizards these days) spends more time on this forum than on RPG.net.  Trust me, if there was about to be a 4e released, there's no fucking way that RPG.net would be told about it beforehand.

RPGPundit

I did not mean rpgnet was in the know at all.
What I did mean, maybe rpgnet was thinking ahead for once, just in case or when D&D4e is released, they will have their own sub-forum in place ahead of time.

But I do remember one guy from WotC who said D&D4e was in the works. But they were going to test the waters first with ideas in future releases of games. I see Star Wars Saga as one of these Tests. If successful, they may go lighter as with SW-Saga. But that was over a year I remember reading that over on the WotC boards.

Quote from: walkerpha ha!  Fuck with me rpg.net!  

It was my thread that the OP is referring to.  I had my grubby little hands on the SW Saga book and was very impressed with and interested in its design and marketing approach.  I wanted to discuss how it might impact the market and the hobby overall.  My first thread was a very brief review with lots of my own D20 "hate" in it.  This was moved in seconds to the D20 forum.  I went to Trouble Tickets and asked, very reasonably for it to get moved back.  Waited several hours for a response.  During that time, several other TT requests got a response, include one to move a D20 thread from Open into D20.

So I went back to Open and started another thread, this time without the review and a much clearer position on how this may affect the entire hobby (which I had understood was an allowable exception to discuss D20 things in Open).

This one was moved in about 20 minutes.  I tried to not blow my gasket, but was getting very close.  I was waiting for a response from the mods when Forumulus, the God of Internet Discussion became furious at ShannonA's hubris (or whoever the fuck is pulling his strings) and shot a lightning bolt at their servers.

I don't want to sound hysterical, but they are coming perilously close to censorship with this move.  I have been on the site for about a year and a half, 1,500 posts, some good hot arguments.  I've never been warned.  I've contributed to the index, encouraged friends to check it out.  And now I'm having my perfectly valid threads yanked around to fit their little vision of the world?

C.W. Richeson says it has been talked to death, which is true.  It has been talked to death by the users, but the Mods are skirting around the issue and ShannonA has said absolutely nothing of substance.  It's clear that many of the mods are not comfortable with the change and are towing the line.  And its clear that ShannonA's lack of proper communication on this issue is making the situation worse.  I would love to know what are the real motivations behind the change.

I am glad you're here actually Walker as I was in the process of replying to your thread in TT when the server went for a burton. Luckily I realised something was up so copied and pasted my reply and saved it to post when the site comes back up. But I'll do it here now to save me the bother. Hopefully Pundit and the rest of you don't mind.

Soooo... without further ado.

______

Quote from: walkerpYet you were there in seconds to move the thread.

Yes because I happened to have just come online at the time. You can't click your fingers and expect a staff member to appear out of thin air.

QuoteI thought that if the issue was the hobby as a whole the thread would be "allowed" to stay in Open.  There are tons of threads about the game itself in the D20 forum.  What kind of informed opinions about the hobby overall am I going to get over there?  Ones that tend to come from a D20 perspective, which is a valid one but only a part of the overall industry.

I think you're putting the game in question onto a rather high pedestal and attributing a lot of "importance" on it in general to justify its existence in the incorrect forum. It is a bit of a slippery slope and based on the responses it did receive, and discussion of said game in other threads, I saw nothing that I felt justified this level groundbreaking impact your cite as your reason.

QuoteFrom my perspective, this is getting perilously close to censorship. I'm basically not allowed to say certain things in certain places.  This is very much not a clear cut case and I am not doing this to try and buck the rules.

Now hang on. I haven't closed your threads. I've not edited them. I've not blasted them from existence. They continue to exist for anyone to post to. That isn't censorship. That is thread management in line with the forum structure. You are quite welcome to say what you want (within the rules) in the right forum. D20 as a forum may have a lot of threads (alright all of them) in which D20 games are discussed from a position of appreciation but we have at no time ever said you have to be complimentary or supportive of the D20 games discussed in the forum. If you want to post a thread announcing why you do not like D20 games then have at it - but it will still go into the D20 forum.

QuoteI am honestly very curious about speculating how SW Saga will effect the industry and I want to hear the opinions of the kind of people who tend to have a wide overview of the industry and those kinds of people tend to be in Open.

Please see my above comments regarding your attempts to put this gameline in particular on higher level of importance to justify the placement of your thread.

Those kind of people post in D20 (btw - cold hard numbers which ShannonA can provide indicate that the D20 forum is growing leaps and bounds in readership and posting) are equally as well versed in the industry. In fact it is your belief above which leads to the incorrect statements that RPGnet is making a D20 ghetto. It most certainly is not and the increasing traffic in the forum bear this out.

QuoteAlready one of my threads was effectively killed.  Now this one is going to die the same death.  The people in D20 right now want to talk about the meat of the game.  As they should.  It's their exciting new toy.  I want some more outside perspective.

Would that be thread that has had more responses than your second thread (as of when I started drafting this response anyway)? You seem to be working on an assumption that those who post in D20 are not as well versed in the industry as those who don't. You also seem to be of the belief that the D20 forum is some kind of graveyard where tumbleweed rolls and the silence is deafening. Neither being true.

QuoteI know this isn't your fault, that you are just following the policy, but this now seems to be going too far.  SW Saga could very well be the biggest game to hit the overall market since 3.5 and we aren't allowed to talk about it in Open??????!!!!!

Sorry but... well no. The game may well be a big release but it is still a D20 game, just like its predecessor was and whilst I don't doubt it will sell by the boat load, given the Star Wars tag on it, that still does not change the nature of the game one tiny little bit. D&D is the one, single, biggest and best selling game on the market bar none. If an when a V4 comes out it will be the next big thing. Guess where threads discussing it will go? Assuming the D20 forum still exists then (which the way things look will be highly probable - sorry).

QuoteI'm feeling very angry and disappointed right now.

I am sorry you feel this way Walker. As I said before - I understand your dislike of the new forum but I would ask that you at least respect RPGnet's managements decision to create the forum.

___

Btw. I am not sure what other threads you were referring to in TT that got a response quicker than yours. From my muddled memory you made your thread in TT at about 2255 (British time I'm afraid since that is where I am) I came online at about 0130 and then my involvement commenced. On a Friday night when a two and half hour turnaround for something which requires consideration (which your request did IMO) isn't too bad.

First, JonA, it's "without further ado." "Adieu" is Frogspeak for "goodbye" - why would you say "without further goodbye"? You're not American, you shouldn't be arseing up sayings like that.

Why does he have to respect rpg.net management's decisions about forum arrangements?

Did he sign an oath of loyalty when he signed up to the forums?

See, respecting mod decisions about what is or is not a rule break, deserving of warning, banning, etc - I can see that. After all, you can question decisions while still respecting them - even if sometimes mods on forums can't tell the difference. It's decisions about people - fair enough, respect 'em.

But decisions about which subforums to have or not? What the fuck?

Quote from: walkerpIt makes me curious as to how tight a rein is going on backstage and what motivates them to all tow the line.

The motivation is a general level of courtesy to those who've seen fit to choose us and trust enough to handle their forum for them.

Quote from: JonAThe motivation is a general level of courtesy to those who've seen fit to choose us and trust enough to handle their forum for them.

You say this on the wrong forum JonA. Here those who distrust you have come to settle....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: JimBobOzFirst, JonA, it's "without further ado." "Adieu" is Frogspeak for "goodbye" - why would you say "without further goodbye"? You're not American, you shouldn't be arseing up sayings like that.

Yeah I know. Its 2am. What can I say. I've edited it now.

QuoteWhy does he have to respect rpg.net management's decisions about forum arrangements?

I was referring to putting your thread in the forum we've specifically set up for such threads. You may not like the split -  that is fine, it was never thought that the split would receive universal approval. But at least respect the structure and format of the board as is or don't post there. Otherwise your threads will get managed and we'll just infuriate you more by doing what we're supposed to be doing.

QuoteDid he sign an oath of loyalty when he signed up to the forums?

He agreed to the terms and conditions which also means working within the rules and guidelines we've chosen to employ on the site. One of those  specifically covers posting in the correct forum.

QuoteSee, respecting mod decisions about what is or is not a rule break, deserving of warning, banning, etc - I can see that. After all, you can question decisions while still respecting them - even if sometimes mods on forums can't tell the difference. It's decisions about people - fair enough, respect 'em.

But decisions about which subforums to have or not? What the fuck?

Again I was referring to posting of threads in the correct forum regardless of your agreement with the existence of said forum. The arguments to the management against the forums were allowed in TT and received senior site management responses.

Quote from: David RYou say this on the wrong forum JonA. Here those who distrust you have come to settle....

Regards,
David R

None of whom ever asked me to help manage the forum on their site. So I really don't give a shit whether anyone here trusts me or not to help run RPGnet. I was responding to someone's post enquiring what motivates us to "tow the line" on the public forums. Simply because that is what is asked of us.

Quote from: JonANone of whom ever asked me to help manage the forum on their site. So I really don't give a shit whether anyone here trusts me or not to help run RPGnet. I was responding to someone's post enquiring what motivates us to "tow the line" on the public forums. Simply because that is what is required of us.

*shrug* Just sayin' that any response you make here is not going to make a difference to some folks. But whatever, you obviously felt the need to come here and respond to Walker.

Regards,
David R

While we're at it, it's "toe the line." Fuckin' worn-out metaphors. Find a fresh one!

And now fuck off and post something in the roleplaying forum, that's what this place is for! :what:

Quote from: JimBobOzWhile we're at it, it's "toe the line." Fuckin' worn-out metaphors. Find a fresh one!

And now fuck off and post something in the roleplaying forum, that's what this place is for! :what:

This IS the roleplaying forum.  :confused:

It's not my fault that the mods here are a few bob short of a quid and don't realsie that a thread bitching about another forum should be in Off-Topic, not in the roleplaying subforum. I assume that after a few days the light of common sense will penetrate through the pipe smoke haze that obscures their moderator's vision, and the thread will be moved to its proper place.

Obviously I mean that JonA should post about roleplaying in the roleplaying subforum.

Quote from: JimBobOzWhile we're at it, it's "toe the line." Fuckin' worn-out metaphors. Find a fresh one!

Pedantic corrections from someone who thinks removing the g from the end of a  verb makes him look cool.

QuoteAnd now fuck off and post something in the roleplaying forum, that's what this place is for! :what:

Nice to see you're still an ignorant twat Jim. This thread seems to be primarily made up of posts berating the split on RPGnet and my posts were pertinent to that. So please. Stop trying to be the hard man of the internet from your little basement. It really is pathetic.

Well, it's back up now, so everyone can piss and moan over there. Oh, hang on...:p

Quote from: One Horse TownWell, it's back up now, so everyone can piss and moan over there. Oh, hang on...:p

Honestly, I just wish they would stop bitchin' about it over here...I mean what's the Pundit's forum for...oh wait...this is the Pundit's forum :eek:

Regards,
David R

and could this please be moved to off topic?  really. . . .:rolleyes:

Quote from: beeberand could this please be moved to off topic?  really. . . .:rolleyes:

This is pretty funny considering that this thread was started to complain about the thread-police moving people's threads on another forum. :p

Quote from: JonAPedantic corrections from someone who thinks removing the g from the end of a  verb makes him look cool.

It's not meant to convey coolness, it's meant to convey the feel of everyday speech, I think this fits best for a forum discussing rpgs.

Quote from: JonANice to see you're still an ignorant twat Jim. This thread seems to be primarily made up of posts berating the split on RPGnet and my posts were pertinent to that. So please. Stop trying to be the hard man of the internet from your little basement. It really is pathetic.

You see? Isn't it refreshing to be able to speak plainly, without having to find some more sneaky way to get your anger across? Here, where you can freely call people on their bullshit - it's rather refreshing, isn't it? Stepping out of the damp and dingy claustrophobic basement of rpg discussion, into a freer air. Sometimes the breeze is rather nippy, but that's the price you pay for being in the fresh air and open, so pull up your collar and mix among the common crowd, it's a rough one but a happy one.

But be careful, though - sometimes at rpg.net you can get moderated for things you say to people on other websites. Of course, you will always be welcomed here. RPGPundit will probably attack you for no reason and try to drive you away, as he did Cessna. But I'd hope that you'd take heart from the rest of us telling him not to be a cocksmock, as we did then.

Cheer up, mate, it could be worse. At least no-one here's called you Welsh yet. :p

Quote from: hgjsThis is pretty funny considering that this thread was started to complain about the thread-police moving people's threads on another forum. :p

Eh, I guess.  Forum organization is a good thing.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonEh, I guess.  Forum organization is a good thing.

thanks, man.  that's all i'm asking

Quote from: JonAI am glad you're here actually Walker as I was in the process of replying to your thread in TT when the server went for a burton. Luckily I realised something was up so copied and pasted my reply and saved it to post when the site comes back up. But I'll do it here now to save me the bother. Hopefully Pundit and the rest of you don't mind.

Mind?? Certainly not. I think its astonishingly brave of you to be here. Of course, here is where we see if you're brave enough to actually address the actual questions people bring up to you: this isn't Trouble Tickets where you can just give a cheap quick answer and then close the thread and thus all opportunity for debate.

QuoteYes because I happened to have just come online at the time. You can't click your fingers and expect a staff member to appear out of thin air.

That's fair enough.

QuoteNow hang on. I haven't closed your threads. I've not edited them. I've not blasted them from existence. They continue to exist for anyone to post to. That isn't censorship. That is thread management in line with the forum structure. You are quite welcome to say what you want (within the rules) in the right forum. D20 as a forum may have a lot of threads (alright all of them) in which D20 games are discussed from a position of appreciation but we have at no time ever said you have to be complimentary or supportive of the D20 games discussed in the forum. If you want to post a thread announcing why you do not like D20 games then have at it - but it will still go into the D20 forum.

Then why the fuck wasn't Darren told that about the D&D thread he moved over INTO Open just because he wanted it to get more attention from the "right" people than what it had been getting in the D20 Ghetto?

QuoteThose kind of people post in D20 (btw - cold hard numbers which ShannonA can provide indicate that the D20 forum is growing leaps and bounds in readership and posting) are equally as well versed in the industry. In fact it is your belief above which leads to the incorrect statements that RPGnet is making a D20 ghetto. It most certainly is not and the increasing traffic in the forum bear this out.

Then why was Darren so eager to get his thread the fuck out of the forum?

And if its not just a D&D ghetto, why have you put threads about RC or 1e or 2e D&D (which are of course NOT D20) into that forum?

QuoteSorry but... well no. The game may well be a big release but it is still a D20 game, just like its predecessor was and whilst I don't doubt it will sell by the boat load, given the Star Wars tag on it, that still does not change the nature of the game one tiny little bit. D&D is the one, single, biggest and best selling game on the market bar none. If an when a V4 comes out it will be the next big thing. Guess where threads discussing it will go? Assuming the D20 forum still exists then (which the way things look will be highly probable - sorry).

Really? What if 4e wasn't D20? You'd still put it there?

QuoteI am sorry you feel this way Walker. As I said before - I understand your dislike of the new forum but I would ask that you at least respect RPGnet's managements decision to create the forum.

Why should he? Your own modclique members clearly don't.  The only difference is thanks to the double standard, they're allowed to put their D&D-threads on Open while he isn't.

RPGPundit

Quote from: One Horse TownWell, it's back up now, so everyone can piss and moan over there. Oh, hang on...:p

until they get banned.

which they will.

Surely, if you are going to moderate a site having a thick skin is mandatory?

Quote from: C.W.RichesonEh, I guess.  Forum organization is a good thing.

its a good thing, but the d20 split is stupid... maybe if it was just D&D and other fantasy dirivitives (Iron Heroes, Castles and Crusades, Iron Kindgoms, etc..), then maybe, but as is it stands you have fantasy, super heroes, modern, horror, cyberpunk, wild west, pulp, sci-fi and from games that arent d20 in one forum, and you have fantasy, super heroes, modern, horror, cyberpunk, wild west, pulp, and sci-fi from games that are d20... talk about your department of redundancy department. the whole reason I go to Open is to get ideas, I dont care if a game is d20, BRP, Palladium, or whatnot, if its a Subject Matter Im interested, I can cherry pick out ideas from the threads, but Im not goig to wade through in what in effect is another "open" with the qualifier of what Die it uses to mine for ideas. The only way I go to the d20 forum now is if it shows up in my RSS feed and it looks interesting.

Quote from: RPGPunditMind?? Certainly not. I think its astonishingly brave of you to be here. Of course, here is where we see if you're brave enough to actually address the actual questions people bring up to you: this isn't Trouble Tickets where you can just give a cheap quick answer and then close the thread and thus all opportunity for debate.

Well I will answer those questions as a courtesy and try my best. Although I will mention that I am unlikely to forge a new world where you suddenly see our way of thinking and go "oh - RPGnet isn't that bad afterall, everything they do makes sense and the mods are a decent bunch of people." I very much doubt that day will come. RPGsite and RPGnet are both different beasts with different outlooks on how a gaming forum should run and should co-exists in their own corners of the internet to cater for gamers. I do find it amusing that you and many others here to aggressively posture about how evil RPGnet is and yet on RPGnet people don't do the same about RPGsite because they're not allowed to. It is ironic really and a fine example of why these sites are different and always will be. You won't change us. We won't change you. Move on.

I came here initially to respond to Walkerp due to a computer problem not allowing me to do so in original forum and I noticed he brought the subject up. So as opposed to ignore it I thought I'd give him a response.

QuoteThen why the fuck wasn't Darren told that about the D&D thread he moved over INTO Open just because he wanted it to get more attention from the "right" people than what it had been getting in the D20 Ghetto?

Actually I did wonder over that myself and it was expressed to him backstage. I originally retitled it (based on the suggestions of a number of participants in the thread) because the thread did drift and expand beyond the realms of the original post referencing mythology in D&D to mythology in all fantasy settings. Darren then clarified the re-title. However - Darren shouldn't have made the call on the move himself I agree. Had the thread not gone off D&D and started covering Warhammer, Eberron and various other fantasy worlds then it wouldn't (or shouldn't anyway) be moved. But I will admit that Darren should've left it for other moderator/s to manage that.

QuoteThen why was Darren so eager to get his thread the fuck out of the forum?

You'd have to ask him. As I said - the management of that could've been smoother.

QuoteAnd if its not just a D&D ghetto, why have you put threads about RC or 1e or 2e D&D (which are of course NOT D20) into that forum?

Because the forum is for:

Dungeons & Dragons, d20, and OGL (d20) such as B5, C&C, and M&M.
Plus older versions of AD&D, Basic D&D, and Original D&D.. This is said on the front page of the forums.

Also - the term "ghetto" for a forum which is seeing increasing viewings and postings day on day is becoming less and less valid.

QuoteReally? What if 4e wasn't D20? You'd still put it there?

Yes because it covers Dungeons & Dragons, d20, and OGL (d20) such as B5, C&C, and M&M. Plus older versions of AD&D, Basic D&D, and Original D&D.

QuoteWhy should he? Your own modclique members clearly don't.  The only difference is thanks to the double standard, they're allowed to put their D&D-threads on Open while he isn't.

RPGPundit

As I mentioned the thread expanded beyond dealing with D&D fantasy and mythology to fantasy in general. ShannonA in the threads in TT that if a thread crosses multi-systems, settings and/or genres then it should be posted in Open. The thread in question did expand beyond the setting originally referred to in the original post to other settings outside of the D20 library and thus I can see the logic of the move and re-titling of the thread. But I do think that it should've been handled by someone else than the moderator who created the thread. Whether this would've been acceptable to you or not is not really a concern of mine for the reasons I stated in my first paragraph. You run your forum your way. We run ours our way.

Quote from: JonAThe thread in question did expand beyond the setting originally referred to in the original post to other settings outside of the D20 library

right, it expanded, that wasnt the original goal of the message.  In the SW thread, its goal was to determine SWs impact on the whole  industry/hobby...

Quote from: NYTFLYRright, it expanded, that wasnt the original goal of the message.  In the SW thread, its goal was to determine SWs impact on the whole  industry/hobby...

Which is still a specific thread about a specific game. It really isn't that difficult to comprehend. There is, however,  now a thread in open which is more general about sci-fi licenses and their impact on the hobby (it talks about not just SW but Stargate, Star Trek, BSG, Serenity etc etc).

Anyway. Now RPGnet is back up and running I'll be on my way. I came here to answer Walkerp as a courtesy to him. I've answered the questions leveled by Pundit and now you and I, personally, don't have anything else to say on the matter.

Quote from: JonAI do find it amusing that you and many others here to aggressively posture about how evil RPGnet is and yet on RPGnet people don't do the same about RPGsite because they're not allowed to.

Well here it's all about freedom of speech and all that stuff. More often than not when you read someone bitching about RPGnet you will also find folks defending the site (RPGnet). Mostly though, the majority are tired of the never ending obsession of some of our posters have for tBP.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RWell here it's all about freedom of speech and all that stuff. More often than not when you read someone bitching about RPGnet you will also find folks defending the site (RPGnet). Mostly though, the majority are tired of the never ending obsession of some of our posters have for tBP.

Regards,
David R

also if you talk about how evil RPG.net is over there, you will be on the short path to bandom...

of course, he says its funny about not being able to talk badly about TheRPGsite over there... but then he turns around and does something else he's allowed to do over there....

QuoteNice to see you're still an ignorant twat Jim. This thread seems to be primarily made up of posts berating the split on RPGnet and my posts were pertinent to that. So please. Stop trying to be the hard man of the internet from your little basement. It really is pathetic.

Quote from: NYTFLYRalso if you talk about how evil RPG.net is over there, you will be on the short path to bandom...

of course, he says its funny about not being able to talk badly about TheRPGsite over there... but then he turns around and does something else he's allowed to do over there....

Sure, no Mod who has ever come from RPGnet has denied himself the pleasure of spewing out a few PAs. That's okay it's what this site is sometimes about. I was just wondering why he felt he needed to respond to Walkerp...here of all places.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: JonAAnyway. Now RPGnet is back up and running I'll be on my way. I came here to answer Walkerp as a courtesy to him. I've answered the questions leveled by Pundit and now you and I, personally, don't have anything else to say on the matter.

Who was that masked man, Tonto?

Well JonA, I applaud your bravery in coming here, and your attempt to justify/clarify your actions to Walker.

Quote from: JonAI do find it amusing that you and many others here to aggressively posture about how evil RPGnet is and yet on RPGnet people don't do the same about RPGsite because they're not allowed to. It is ironic really and a fine example of why these sites are different and always will be.

I'd like to point out that anyone from RPG.net is welcomed to come here and they will be allowed to aggressively posture about the evil of RPGsite. You are right though, there is irony - If you want to be critical of RPG.net, you have to go to a different forum to talk about it. If you want to be critical of theRPGsite, you can post your criticism right here.

QuoteI came here initially to respond to Walkerp due to a computer problem not allowing me to do so in original forum and I noticed he brought the subject up. So as opposed to ignore it I thought I'd give him a response.

I noticed Walker started a thread in Trouble Tickets and a few people jumped in to talk about the issue of what type of thread belongs in what forum. Unfortunately, Shannon jumped in and locked that TT thread up quickly. It's downright shameful that users can't discuss issues in Trouble Tickets without someone locking the thread.

QuoteActually I did wonder over that myself and it was expressed to him backstage.

Well I'm glad to see someone making at least a little effort standing up and pointing out the hypocrisy and silliness of the situation.

QuoteBecause the forum is for:

Dungeons & Dragons, d20, and OGL (d20) such as B5, C&C, and M&M.
Plus older versions of AD&D, Basic D&D, and Original D&D.. This is said on the front page of the forums.

And the description for open is:

"General discussion about the roleplaying industry and where it's going, and other tabletop RPG topics."

Which still confuses me as to why a thread whose main theme is "How [this d20 game] will affect the industry" needs to get shuffled into d20. To me, the main target for discussion was the industry, rather than a particular game. Key points included marketing strategy and high profile setting licenses. There was little if any intent to discuss the d20 system.

The bottom line is that the author felt it to be open material, and has a pretty damn good reason as to why it's open, so what was really accomplished by moving it, other than upsetting people?

QuoteShannonA in the threads in TT that if a thread crosses multi-systems, settings and/or genres then it should be posted in Open.

Walker specifically started a new thread, and tried to word it properly so that it would meet whatever odd criteria are used, and yet still it got moved, along with a snarky reply. Moving the second thread and locking the TT thread seem like punitive actions rather than anything the least bit beneficial to the site as a whole.

QuoteThe thread in question did expand beyond the setting originally referred to in the original post to other settings outside of the D20 library and thus I can see the logic of the move and re-titling of the thread.

Sounds a lot like Walker's thread.

QuoteYou run your forum your way. We run ours our way.

Unfortunately, by locking threads in TT, the only resort people have to make  criticism about RPG.net is to post them here.

Quote from: Tom BShhh.  That's not the point.  The point is to have excuses to bitch about RPGnet!  Silly Devil.

That's true. My Bad.

Quote from: Tom BPersonally, I've never witnessed any hostility, never had to "watch my words", never seen any "mod abuse", etc., etc., etc.  ad nauseum.  I make no claim that that's true for everyone.  Obviously some people have had problems.  It's certainly not universal, though.  RPGnet has always been a pleasant place with interesting conversations.  I tend to avoid the various argument threads, which takes little effort.  I didn't even notice the new D20 sub-forum had been created.  I do notice it has a prominent link on the front page, so I see nothing "ghetto" about it.

I agree.  I think overall it's just a knee jerk reaction to change.   Both open and the D20 section seem to be doing really well (at least when rpg.net actually stays up for more then 5 minutes)

Quote from: Tom BI've been a regular there since it's initial incarnation.  I have nothing to complain about at all.

Yep.  If I don't like it I am always free to go elsewhere.

Quote from: Tom BYou know how when a group of friends splits up over an argument, or a couple splits up?  Both sides usually spend the next few months trash-talking each other and finding fault in everything they do.  This reminds me a lot of that.

Yep, of course splitting up over stupid arguments is stupid in the first place but it happens, even to me.  I stopped talking to a friend of mine for awhile about something stupid.  We both talked at one point and decided it was stupid to end a longtime friendship over something pointless.

Quote from: Tom BI know...maybe Pundit should create a new Sub-Forum dedicated to trashing RPGnet!  :D

Nah, he will just do it everywhere else.  Because he just can't let it go

Quote from: JonAWhich is still a specific thread about a specific game.

The rest of the hobby isn't a specific game, you fat Welsh cunt.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old SchoolThe rest of the hobby isn't a specific game, you fat Welsh cunt.

KoOS

Its always fun when people resort to immature cursing to get their point across.  Makes you look SO intelligent.

Always had a better opinion of you King.

JonA, I just want to say that I appreciate the effort you made to communicate with me over here while rpg.net was down.  I was actually away for the weekend, and am just checking back now.  Since I am not allowed to discuss this in TT (my last complaint was the third thread about this that got locked), I put my response over on the thread in question, which is now in the D20 suburb*.

I think that for the most part your reasoning is valid so I can't really argue with you.  I think most of you mods do a good job, so I'm not feeling any antagonism towards what you are doing.  The basic conflict is ultimately about the split itself. We can argue about whether my original thread should be in D20 or not for quite a while, but ultimately it boils down to semantics.  An almost identical thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=337883), started by the much craftier AJFixer is almost exactly the same as mine, but since it is left in Open it is actually getting some pretty interesting general discussion, which is what I wanted in the first place.  However, I don't want to have to spend hours figuring out ways to get around the growingly byzantine structures of rules that rpg.net is becoming.  

It's funny.  ShannonA makes the rules, but because the real motivations behind them remain hidden, they are very unclear and way too open to interpretation.  The mods are the ones who have the final ruling on the interpretation.  It's like playing craps with that guy from Guys & Dolls who had the blank dice.

Again, though, thanks for making an effort to communicate the reasoning behind your decisions. I just wish the thread hadn't been locked, but I see your heart is in the right place and I wish you no ill will.  



*and you're right, the D20 forum can't be called a ghetto. It's Open that's going to be the ghetto.

i doubt he's stuck around now that tbp is back up.

Quote from: David RMore often than not when you read someone bitching about RPGnet you will also find folks defending the site (RPGnet).

Including some of those who were banned from it ;)

Quote from: walkerpIt's funny. ShannonA makes the rules, but because the real motivations behind them remain hidden, they are very unclear and way too open to interpretation. The mods are the ones who have the final ruling on the interpretation.

I think you're assuming that all their reasoning is completely logical and laid-out clearly in their own minds, they just don't choose to share that with us. I think they're just as whimsical and inconsistent and muddled and confused by things as you and I. Why ese would mods come to therpgsite to defend their modding of rpg.net, and let out a heap of personal attacks? "Our rules are so good that given the first chance we'll break them all." If rules against personal attacks are good and help conversation, then why not follow them everywhere? Or do they want to hurt conversation here? Or is it that the rules are just arbitrary and...?

Not that I think rules against personal attacks are actually a bad thing - they have some good effects, some bad effects, but overall are probably at least neutral, if not good. I just mention it as an example, that while praising the rules of rpg.net as producing a wonderful forum, at the first opportunity they speak in a way they never could there.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralIts always fun when people resort to immature cursing to get their point across.  Makes you look SO intelligent.

I save my intelligent commentary for people who deserve it.  JonA is just here to stir up shit -- the idea that a mod from TBP would or should come here to explain or justify a mod call on that site is ridiculous.  Well, here he can't hide behind his little mod badge or his idiotic pro-passive-aggressive rules so he deserves as much monkeyshit as we can fling at his corpulent hide.  Unlike Cessna, he didn't come here to contribute -- he came here just to be a cunt, and he deserves to be treated as such.  At least here he won't get banned for it...

And dude, get off your high horse already.  Cursing is mindless fun, this isn't a nunnery and it's not like I'm being paid or graded for what I write here.

KoOS

Quote from: David RI was just wondering why he felt he needed to respond to Walkerp...here of all places.

He's selfless and noble. He braved the lion's den because it was his duty - nay, his privilege - to stop at nothing to answer a question raised at forum of which he is one of a number of moderators...

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiHe's selfless and noble. He braved the lion's den because it was his duty - nay, his privilege - to stop at nothing to answer a question raised at forum of which he is one of a number of moderators...

Seanchai

omfg etc

:rollbarf:

Quote from: JimBobOzI think you're assuming that all their reasoning is completely logical and laid-out clearly in their own minds, they just don't choose to share that with us. I think they're just as whimsical and inconsistent and muddled and confused by things as you and I. Why ese would mods come to therpgsite to defend their modding of rpg.net, and let out a heap of personal attacks? "Our rules are so good that given the first chance we'll break them all." If rules against personal attacks are good and help conversation, then why not follow them everywhere? Or do they want to hurt conversation here? Or is it that the rules are just arbitrary and...?

No-one wants to shit in their own backyard.  But squeezing out a big fat one in someone else's backyard?  That's fair game.

The saga continues...

Someone else posts a very carefully worded thread in Open, substituting phrases like "major sci-fi license" for Star Wars and "some gaming company" for WotC etc. and dealing with the possible impact on the gaming industry. The thread takes off a bit a gets quite a few reasonable responses, and many posters actually talk about games other than D20, which was Walker's original intent.

ShannonA stops by and makes a semi-contributive post.

At least one mod sees the forest for the trees in this instance:

Quote from: Darren MacLennanOh, good. We've finally come to the point where people have to start talking in Mafia code in order to use the board. This is a happy day. -Darren MacLennan

ShannonA in a later post takes an indirect jab at Walker, demonstrating that, as an Admin, it's perfectly acceptable to personally ignore any sort of decorum or professionalism.

Quote from: walkerpYou know what, f[edited] you...[snip]...Let my repeat myself to you ShannonA:  f[edited] you.

1 Week ban handed out. Talk about entrapment.

The drama over there just gets better and better. I was feeling the need to go to Blockbuster to get a good comedy tonight, but I don't think anything can top this for humor. I seriously wonder if there is some sort of irony class that admins and mods over there are forced to take.

I feel your pain Walker.

Darren's comment would be wonderfully on point if it weren't rendered hypocritical by his "D&D has damaged roleplaying" thread getting moved to the main forum, by himself of course.

Quote from: GoOrangeI fell your pain Walker.

Why because he took "their" bait ? Their house, their rules (even if it's not consistent). If you don't like it leave..and come here.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Tyberious FunkNo-one wants to shit in their own backyard.  But squeezing out a big fat one in someone else's backyard?  That's fair game.

I keep the shit for the toilet, and for talking while I have a beer in my hand! :D

But you can't really blame JonA. Wouldn't you be all bitter and twisted if you'd grown up eating nothing but leeks?

Quote from: JimBobOzI keep the shit for the toilet,

Actually, I was thinking about dogs but didn't want to be so explicit.  
 

QuoteBut you can't really blame JonA. Wouldn't you be all bitter and twisted if you'd grown up eating nothing but leeks?

Actually, I quite like leeks.  I love good leek and potato soup.

Quote from: GoOrange1 Week ban handed out. Talk about entrapment.

Getting banned for taking the bait and blowing off steam? That doesn't particularly bother me. What bothers me? This post (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=7410310&postcount=76) that came immediately after.
 
It amounts to "I'm telling on you".
 
For fucks sake, didn't we outgrow that sort of shit in primary school?  That, right there, is RPGnet in a nutshell.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkWhat bothers me? This post (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=7410310&postcount=76) that came immediately after.
 
It amounts to "I'm telling on you".
 
For fucks sake, didn't we outgrow that sort of shit in primary school?  That, right there, is RPGnet in a nutshell.

Absolutely.

I agree 100%. Unfortunately, these types of posts are ridiculously common over at that site. Anytime someone posts something the least bit controversial, there are countless threadcrappers chomping at the bit to be the first to announce that they are ratting out a fellow poster, or "tattling" if you will.

That, and the "Welcome to Ban-ville, population: you" type replies that are nothing other than cheap shots and taunts themselves.

Yet none of these posts are getting mod warnings in the thread.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkGetting banned for taking the bait and blowing off steam? That doesn't particularly bother me. What bothers me? This post (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=7410310&postcount=76) that came immediately after.
 
It amounts to "I'm telling on you".
 
For fucks sake, didn't we outgrow that sort of shit in primary school?  That, right there, is RPGnet in a nutshell.

oh i love that shit

". . . reported" gets the poster instantly on my IL.

Not to mention the report was entirely redundant. The guy had just said, "fuck you" to Shannon A., the admin of the entire fucking site.

Reports are meant to be for things the admins/mods might miss. You run to the teacher when the teacher didn't see. But if some kid just got his biro, took the ink runner out, got a wad of paper, chewed it up and did a blowgun spitwad at the back of the principal's neck, and when the principal turned around the kid was laughing and pointing and waving his biro in the air, you really don't have to run to your teacher to tell her what just happened.

Unless you're an arse-kisser, of course.

Well, according to the new FAQ the D20 Forum is a success and is staying and is not hurting the other forums:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=338267

If they wrote it down it must be true.

Quote from: HalfjackIf they wrote it down it must be true.

Well they also have ways to track that kind of thing.  And neither Open nor the D20 section seems to have having any problems keeping busy.

So I believe it

Quote from: Tyberious FunkGetting banned for taking the bait and blowing off steam? That doesn't particularly bother me. What bothers me? This post (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=7410310&postcount=76) that came immediately after.
 
It amounts to "I'm telling on you".
 
For fucks sake, didn't we outgrow that sort of shit in primary school?  That, right there, is RPGnet in a nutshell.

If you report others, you can get away with skirting the line later.

Seanchai

Quote from: Tyberious FunkGetting banned for taking the bait and blowing off steam? That doesn't particularly bother me. What bothers me? This post (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=7410310&postcount=76) that came immediately after.
 
It amounts to "I'm telling on you".
 
For fucks sake, didn't we outgrow that sort of shit in primary school?  That, right there, is RPGnet in a nutshell.

I have to agree with you.

If you have a problem with a thread, report it and let the mods and admins make the call.

People don't have to be childish and say "Reported!" just to rub it in the persons face.

What happens if a person does that and the mods and admins think it's a baseless report?  The person doing it looks like an ass and the person reported gets a chuckle out of it.

By whose definition of "not hurting"?

The one thing that really pisses me off is that every time I have tried to discuss the issue in general, the thread has been closed.

When I tried to discuss my particular issue (twice), the thread was closed.

And then they get all sanctimonious talking about how swearing and behaving like that "isn't helping my case".  I did everything by the book for a week.  ShannonA clearly had some presupposition about my motives, but did not have the courage or the character to just confront me about it directly.  Instead, he just locks thread and that talks shit about me sideways to the whole forum when he is caught in his own contradiction.  How else am I supposed to respond to that?  

And for the record, as I said in my TT thread, I was really not trying to undermine the rules of the D20 forum.

They can all kiss my ass.  And those fucking little toadies.  That is really pathetic.  Do you think ShannonA gave them each 10 xp as a bonus for their slavering loyalty?

Once the mods think of you as a "troublemaker" they'll never treat you equitably again. Trust me - any little thing becomes a warnable or banable offense, and the posters who enjoy antagonizing you know it and take full advantage of it.

Surely you've seen that before.

Werekoala is a 100% correct there. I pissed off Curt and left the site rather than get permabanned on some trumped-up bullshit.

Quote from: beeberoh i love that shit

". . . reported" gets the poster instantly on my IL.

Me too. He landed on my Ignore list within seconds. I was tempted to make a riposte, pointing out the utter childishness of it, but figured it'd get interpreted as a personal attack and it wasnt worth the bother. :rolleyes:

About 75% of my ignore list over there are people who whine and report folks for minor infractions. The other 25% is evenly split between asskissers and general purpose asstards.
So far, only one person on my ignore list has shown up over here, two if you count someone who dropped off my IL by asskissing his way into a mod position ;)

Quote from: WerekoalaOnce the mods think of you as a "troublemaker" they'll never treat you equitably again. Trust me - any little thing becomes a warnable or banable offense, and the posters who enjoy antagonizing you know it and take full advantage of it.

And if RPG.NET doesn't change this it is going to go downhill fast.   The problem is you have mods who probably have never had power before (not in real life) then they became mods of rpg.net and got power hungry and let it go to their heads .  

These are the kind of people who should NEVER have power.

I knew Curt was going to use his moderator powers to abuse people, and I am glad they brought him down to earth and fast.

The Koala speaketh the truth.

In private messages , mods over there have shown their obvious bias and dislike of little 'ol me.

Only reason I think I stayed as long as I have is because I was pleasantly shocked that I had a chance at winning Vipergrrl's BSG Jeopardy thing in Other Media - that was rather fun.


- Ed C.

ALL OF YOU ARE REPORTED!!!!

IGN0RD!!1!

:haw:

Abyssal Maw, enjoy your month off for impersonating a mod.

Don't make me break out my Pundit-Royal-Blue voice...

Think of the children...

Everyone agreed with me! I'm finally one of the clique! You like me! You REALLY like me!

Now I need to find someone to endlessly disagree with and harrass so I can get them suspended when they finally stick up for themselves. Any voulenteers?

Quote from: KoltarThe Koala speaketh the truth.

In private messages , mods over there have shown their obvious bias and dislike of little 'ol me.

- Ed C.

Yeah because YOU are a troublemaker and someone to be concered about :rolleyes:

The mods at rpg.net have lost their damn minds

Seriously, Koltar, of all people?! :confused: You're the guy who is always coming in with the messages of peace and reason.  What could you have possibly done to get on their watch list?

I'm one of those "Evil" assumed to be right wing types. That might have been enough.

 Of course purple has never been my favorite color anyway.
 No big loss .

 By-the-way ...everybody knows by now that they came back online - right?


- Ed C.

Quote from: droogAbyssal Maw, enjoy your month off for impersonating a mod.

It just goes to show how deeply the Thetans have imprinted their engrams upon me, that, when I saw this post, I had an instinctive moment of panic before I realised where I wasn't.

!i!

Quote from: Blue DevilAnd if RPG.NET doesn't change this it is going to go downhill fast.  

[...snip...]

I knew Curt was going to use his moderator powers to abuse people, and I am glad they brought him down to earth and fast.

Define "fast".  I recognise people here who were banned as much as 2.5 to 3 years ago.  I had been chafing with various mods for the better part of a year before I began to bail on the place a year ago.  Curt was a mod for how long before they finally ditched him?  Say what you will about RPG.net, but it has a huge amount of momentum behind it at this point, and nothing is going to happen "fast".  Well, unless there's significant financial sponsorship behind it, of course.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaDefine "fast".  I recognise people here who were banned as much as 2.5 to 3 years ago.  I had been chafing with various mods for the better part of a year before I began to bail on the place a year ago.  Curt was a mod for how long before they finally ditched him?  Say what you will about RPG.net, but it has a huge amount of momentum behind it at this point, and nothing is going to happen "fast".  Well, unless there's significant financial sponsorship behind it, of course.

!i!

Well, true they didn't ban him fast.  But they did ban him, bring him back and then give him mod status.

That I will never understand.  You ban someone who is abusive, bring them back and give them power.

They lost their damn minds

i think that was due to him living with a2k and voice of isaac at the time; something to do with sharing an IP address :confused:

why the fuck i remember that bit o' drama?!  why couldn't boozing kill *that* brain cell?  :keke:

Quote from: Blue DevilAnd if RPG.NET doesn't change this it is going to go downhill fast.   The problem is you have mods who probably have never had power before (not in real life) then they became mods of rpg.net and got power hungry and let it go to their heads .  

These are the kind of people who should NEVER have power.

I knew Curt was going to use his moderator powers to abuse people, and I am glad they brought him down to earth and fast.

Says the guy with his own site to shill.

Quote from: walkerpSeriously, Koltar, of all people?! :confused: You're the guy who is always coming in with the messages of peace and reason.  What could you have possibly done to get on their watch list?

One word: GURPS.  The real RPG.net conspiracy is about GURPS.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIt just goes to show how deeply the Thetans have imprinted their engrams upon me, that, when I saw this post, I had an instinctive moment of panic before I realised where I wasn't.

!i!

Ha HA! Fucking with your head!

Quote from: walkerp*and you're right, the D20 forum can't be called a ghetto. It's Open that's going to be the ghetto.

I fear you may be right. :(

Quote from: JimBobOzI think you're assuming that all their reasoning is completely logical and laid-out clearly in their own minds, they just don't choose to share that with us. I think they're just as whimsical and inconsistent and muddled and confused by things as you and I. Why ese would mods come to therpgsite to defend their modding of rpg.net, and let out a heap of personal attacks? "Our rules are so good that given the first chance we'll break them all." If rules against personal attacks are good and help conversation, then why not follow them everywhere? Or do they want to hurt conversation here? Or is it that the rules are just arbitrary and...?

I had to quote you, because you raise some good questions. I wish I had some answers though. :raise:  

Quote from: JimBobOzNot that I think rules against personal attacks are actually a bad thing - they have some good effects, some bad effects, but overall are probably at least neutral, if not good. I just mention it as an example, that while praising the rules of rpg.net as producing a wonderful forum, at the first opportunity they speak in a way they never could there.

Maybe they feel constrained by their own rules, but can't bring themselves to admit it? Who knows...? :confused:

Quote from: J ArcaneSays the guy with his own site to shill.

First what's up with the personal attack for no reason (Since I have been agreeing with what you have been saying) and two I am not abusive on my site, I havent had to ban or warn anyone.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambI fear you may be right. :(

Both forms are busy and doing fine.  What do you think they are going to become ghettos?

Quote from: Blue DevilFirst what's up with the personal attack for no reason (Since I have been agreeing with what you have been saying) and two I am not abusive on my site, I havent had to ban or warn anyone.

What can I say, disingenousness bothers me.

Quote from: Blue DevilBoth forms are busy and doing fine.  What do you think they are going to become ghettos?

Because "busy" is not the best metric for "quality".  Ghettos are full, not empty.

Quote from: J ArcaneWhat can I say, disingenousness bothers me.

How am I being Disingenous?  I am posting and replying to the thread.  You have sites listed in your signature.  I could say the same about you.  But I don't

Quote from: HalfjackBecause "busy" is not the best metric for "quality".  Ghettos are full, not empty.

There is no problem with there being a D20 forum and an Open Forum.  it's not making them a ghetto.  It is at the top of the lst, easy to see.

All I see is a knee jerk reaction to change from certain people.  Anyway the admins say its working and its going to stay for now so, not much anyone can do.

Quote from: Blue DevilHow am I being Disingenous?  I am posting and replying to the thread.  You have sites listed in your signature.  I could say the same about you.  But I don't

Except that I'm not spending copious amounts of time trashing other people's food blogs or dev blogs, now am I?

Quote from: Blue DevilThere is no problem with there being a D20 forum and an Open Forum.  it's not making them a ghetto.  It is at the top of the lst, easy to see.

Hey I'm just responding to your wondering why it's a ghetto.  It's not about numbers.

QuoteAll I see is a knee jerk reaction to change from certain people.  Anyway the admins say its working and its going to stay for now so, not much anyone can do.

The admins have their head up his ass.

Quote from: J ArcaneExcept that I'm not spending copious amounts of time trashing other people's food blogs or dev blogs, now am I?

Nor am I. So what's your point.

Quote from: HalfjackHey I'm just responding to your wondering why it's a ghetto.  It's not about numbers.

I disagree its going to become a Ghetto

Quote from: HalfjackThe admins have their head up his ass.

About many things, yes.  About this, no.

Quote from: Blue DevilNor am I. So what's your point.

OK, now you've gone from disingenous to dishonest.  It's never wise to lie about your own posts on a public forum.

Quote from: J ArcaneOK, now you've gone from disingenous to dishonest.

How am I trashing anything?

Quote from: J ArcaneSays the guy with his own site to shill.

Dude, you're taking a cheap shot at Blue Devil for no reason. He's contributing to these forums. What's your problem?

Quote from: Sacrificial LambDude, you're taking a cheap shot at Blue Devil for no reason. He's contributing to these forums. What's your problem?

'Cause a liar and a shill contributes sooo much to a place. :rolleyes:

Quote from: J Arcane'Cause a liar and a shill contributes sooo much to a place. :rolleyes:

I don't see a problem with him pimping his site. He has a link in his sig, as does Levi and a few other people to theirs. What's wrong with that? The more rpg sites we have, the better. After all, if this site went down, then we have other options to go to. At least, that's the way I see it.

And when did he lie? About what? Not that I want to stir shit up, but I really don't understand your attitude.

Quote from: beeberi think that was due to him living with a2k and voice of isaac at the time; something to do with sharing an IP address :confused:

why the fuck i remember that bit o' drama?!  why couldn't boozing kill *that* brain cell?  :keke:

That does not matter. They Banned a friend of mine, just because one of the other players in the group occasional would use his computer to post there under his own account. Both of them were banned. Then they called him a lier about it.

Quote from: HalfjackOne word: GURPS.  The real RPG.net conspiracy is about GURPS.

Yeah. That and saying postive things about RIFTS or Palladium's system or games.

Quote from: LacrioxusThat does not matter. They Banned a friend of mine, just because one of the other players in the group occasional would use his computer to post there under his own account. Both of them were banned. Then they called him a lier about it.

It's not supposed to matter, no. But both of those names were mods (IIRC) back in the day, and Curt's response to being banned for flaming was to sockpuppet back in - since they couldn't IP ban two staff or apparently ask them "Could you maybe keep your vituperative roommate from being a total shit?", they put the rules aside again and let him back on.

If you're enough of a loathsome human being, you get a pass.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaDefine "fast".  I recognise people here who were banned as much as 2.5 to 3 years ago.  I had been chafing with various mods for the better part of a year before I began to bail on the place a year ago.  Curt was a mod for how long before they finally ditched him?  Say what you will about RPG.net, but it has a huge amount of momentum behind it at this point, and nothing is going to happen "fast".  Well, unless there's significant financial sponsorship behind it, of course.

!i!

In my 3 or 4 years of lurkdom on RPGnet I have not seen you and the mods disagree really. I do not remember seeing any minor stuff either. Unless you just do not post a voice against them often. Then again, the dozen or so real life friends I have who post there tell me to NEVER Post in Tangacy or whatever it is called. I lurkered there once in awhile, and alot of what I see there would get reasonable people banned fast, except the Mods' friends of course. I stay in RPG Open and D20 forum for a reason.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambAnd when did he lie? About what? Not that I want to stir shit up, but I really don't understand your attitude.

Nothing.   I am just on the outs with him and others because I am no longer a good little solider because I have my own site.  Even when I agree with what he says he feels the need to attack me.

Not to mention it's hypocritical to say I am just pimping my site that I have in my signature file when he is doing the same thing for two sites.

He is being ignored by me.  I had him on ignore before, removed him to give him a chance but his attacks for no reason leave me with little to no choice.

Quote from: J Arcane'Cause a liar and a shill contributes sooo much to a place. :rolleyes:

This ground has already been covered. Blue Devil has justified his/her self and we have moved on. At least the rest of us have. Blue Devil continues to participate as an active and contributing member of the forum.

Quote from: ConanMKThis ground has already been covered. Blue Devil has justified his/her self and we have moved on. At least the rest of us have. Blue Devil continues to participate as an active and contributing member of the forum.

Hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good hate-on....



TGA

Quote from: ConanMKThis ground has already been covered. Blue Devil has justified his/her self and we have moved on. At least the rest of us have. Blue Devil continues to participate as an active and contributing member of the forum.

. . . who lies about his own posts in the very thread he made them in.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineWerekoala is a 100% correct there. I pissed off Curt and left the site rather than get permabanned on some trumped-up bullshit.

Oh jesus christ - both you and Werekoala were shit disturbers of the highest order.  Fucking sanctimonious bullshit.  Werekoala way moreso than you, but Pseudo, you had some pretty hardcore passive-aggressive and deliberately obtuse asshattery going for quite some time.  Werekoala was quite frankly an annoying pissant and the site is better for him having gone.

Love you too, sugarbear.

I was goaded into being any annoying pissant by having the misfortune to take the "wrong" side of any social issue. How DARE I have an opinion that runs contrary to the Herd over there. A herd that I will note you were a member of. As long as we're all in agreement, then everything's fine! Nice way to live. The dogpiles were not a product of me as a person, but of my opinions, and naturally when the Mods happen to agree with the dogpilers, your chances are pretty damn slim. THAT is why I ended up on the wrong end of the ban-hammer.

If I was so bad over there, why am I so not-bad over here? Because I'm not getting constantly slapped down by ... let's see... "annoying pissants" like Jakko, for example - someone who wished death on all my family and friends, and claimed I was an out and out racist (PA anyone?) because I dare to suggest we might want to enforce our laws equally... and he received nothing - nothing - as punishment, not even an admonishment. No double standard there!

You've surely noted the comment in the Off Topic forum about how most of the folks who are ending up over here seem to be of a more right-wing bent? There's a reason for that, chief. Suss on that one for a bit.

Oh he was fun.  I had a fun argument with him once about how apparently, according to him, all shooter games are fundamentally racist.  In which despite breaking half a dozen rules in the course of the thread, Cessna still refused to do anything about it.

That was fun.

Quote from: J Arcane'Cause a liar and a shill contributes sooo much to a place. :rolleyes:

Tell me about it.  We don't tolerate that stuff at Animalball (http://www.animalball.com/forums).  At Animalball (http://www.animalball.com/forums) we offer all our products for free download (http://www.animalball.com/games.html) and have even started a podcast (http://animalball.libsyn.coml) to discuss issues just like this.  Filthy spammers can go to hell-- we only allow people who contribute on Animalball (http://www.animalball.com/forums) without all the spamming.  How dare you, Blue Devil.

Quote from: ConanMKThis ground has already been covered. Blue Devil has justified his/her self and we have moved on.

Actually, he hasn't, and we haven't either.

Quote from: Animalball BraskyTell me about it.  We don't tolerate that stuff at Animalball (http://www.animalball.com/forums).  At Animalball (http://www.animalball.com/forums) we offer all our products for free download (http://www.animalball.com/games.html) and have even started a podcast (http://animalball.libsyn.coml) to discuss issues just like this.  Filthy spammers can go to hell-- we only allow people who contribute on Animalball (http://www.animalball.com/forums) without all the spamming.  How dare you, Blue Devil.

This would be funnier if Serious Paul weren't off in several other threads babbling about Animalball this, and Bulldrek that, and Pundit's daily repost being about you guys :D

Quote from: Animalball BraskyTell me about it.  We don't tolerate that stuff at Animalball (http://www.animalball.com/forums).  At Animalball (http://www.animalball.com/forums) we offer all our products for free download (http://www.animalball.com/games.html) and have even started a podcast (http://animalball.libsyn.coml) to discuss issues just like this.  Filthy spammers can go to hell-- we only allow people who contribute on Animalball (http://www.animalball.com/forums) without all the spamming.  How dare you, Blue Devil.

I see what you did there.

Quote from: J ArcaneOh he was fun.  I had a fun argument with him once about how apparently, according to him, all shooter games are fundamentally racist.  In which despite breaking half a dozen rules in the course of the thread, Cessna still refused to do anything about it.

That was fun.

Wait, what? I thought *I* was the problem over there, and once I was taken care of, all the puppies and pixie dust were on the way! You're saying Jakko really IS an asshole who never gets paddled despite outrageous behavior? And he's only one of many? Wonder why - could it be because he was on the "right" side all the time?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

Quote from: J ArcaneThis would be funnier if Serious Paul weren't off in several other threads babbling about Animalball this, and Bulldrek that, and Pundit's daily repost being about you guys :D

I actually haven't been back to this site in a while, but if Paul says it's so, then it is so.  (There was a suspicion at first that we were the same person- but I'm the good-looking one and he's the brains of the operation.)

All of that being said, none of y'all would like AB or BD (mostly because people use words like y'all) anyways, you've got exactly what you like here.  We're a tough crowd and we understand we're not to everyone's taste.

That being said, I'd like to get back to the original topic.  I'm still banned from RPG.net and haven't seen any of these new miraculous changes.  But didn't I hear they were taking a more metered approach to moderating?  Did I not hear that?

Quote from: Animalball BraskyI actually haven't been back to this site in a while, but if Paul says it's so, then it is so.  (There was a suspicion at first that we were the same person- but I'm the good-looking one and he's the brains of the operation.)

All of that being said, none of y'all would like AB or BD (mostly because people use words like y'all) anyways, you've got exactly what you like here.  We're a tough crowd and we understand we're not to everyone's taste.

That being said, I'd like to get back to the original topic.  I'm still banned from RPG.net and haven't seen any of these new miraculous changes.  But didn't I hear they were taking a more metered approach to moderating?  Did I not hear that?

Last I heard that was later recanted as being one moderator talking out of her ass, and was mostly just a reaffirmation of what everyone already knew, namely that despite the way the rules had been written previously, only certain categories of group attack were actually enforced.

Quote from: J ArcaneLast I heard that was later recanted as being one moderator talking out of her ass, and was mostly just a reaffirmation of what everyone already knew, namely that despite the way the rules had been written previously, only certain categories of group attack were actually enforced.

I was reading through one of the necromantic threads on this site that someone recently revived that I started a year ago (creepiest gamer) and how I was attacked by one of the mods- was it Darrin?  I don't even think he's still a mod over there-- do they even still have the same mod set?

Quote from: Animalball BraskyI was reading through one of the necromantic threads on this site that someone recently revived that I started a year ago (creepiest gamer) and how I was attacked by one of the mods- was it Darrin?  I don't even think he's still a mod over there-- do they even still have the same mod set?

Darren is still a mod.  Darren will basically always be a mod, despite his behavior being utterly unbecoming of any kind of authority position, because too many people criticize his position there, so actually banning the assmunch like he should be woule be a threat to their authority, as it might be seen as the waves of consumer complaitns being genuinely addressed instead of swept under the rug.

It's political, basically.

Quote from: WerekoalaLove you too, sugarbear.

I was goaded into being any annoying pissant by having the misfortune to take the "wrong" side of any social issue. How DARE I have an opinion that runs contrary to the Herd over there. A herd that I will note you were a member of. As long as we're all in agreement, then everything's fine! Nice way to live. The dogpiles were not a product of me as a person, but of my opinions, and naturally when the Mods happen to agree with the dogpilers, your chances are pretty damn slim. THAT is why I ended up on the wrong end of the ban-hammer.

If I was so bad over there, why am I so not-bad over here? Because I'm not getting constantly slapped down by ... let's see... "annoying pissants" like Jakko, for example - someone who wished death on all my family and friends, and claimed I was an out and out racist (PA anyone?) because I dare to suggest we might want to enforce our laws equally... and he received nothing - nothing - as punishment, not even an admonishment. No double standard there!

You've surely noted the comment in the Off Topic forum about how most of the folks who are ending up over here seem to be of a more right-wing bent? There's a reason for that, chief. Suss on that one for a bit.

Theres plenty of right wingers still over there.  The ones left are ones that don't have to be a raging jackass dick about it.

"Don't be a dick" - primary rule numero uno of rpg.net.  Never break that, you got no problems.  You can still be quite a dick and get away with it for a long time - hell, look how long Ross N stuck around.  Sooner or later, your dickishness will get you in trouble.

Personally, I have no problem with that.  I LIKE rpg.net the way it is.  I also like this place.  I get different things out of the two experiences, and neither is better or worse.  I'm spending a bit more time on here now than BP, but after the crash, I'm feeling like a bit of downtime from BP is a good thing.  I'll go back - there was a time when I was taking all the anti-teacehr threads too seriously and took time away from BP, and it was good.  I think I'm feeling one of those now.  So I'll hang here for a while, and see whats shakin.  Perhaps this becomes a regular part of my inetrnet routine - a few RPG.net forum tabs open, a few RPGsite tabs open.  I love Firefox.

EDIT - you weren't the only one.  Far from it.  The Usual Suspect jackasses were another.  And Nisarg.  Sweet fucking god Nisarg.  Never has there been a time someone on the internet made me want to commit unspeakable atrocities just to shut them the fuck up.

Again (and for the last time) the only reason I BECAME a raging jackass dick is because I was dogpiled by the Marching Morons who felt that since I stuck up a bit, I had to be hammered down. I don't take kindly to being gang-raped.

Quote from: WerekoalaAgain (and for the last time) the only reason I BECAME a raging jackass dick is because I was dogpiled by the Marching Morons who felt that since I stuck up a bit, I had to be hammered down. I don't take kindly to being gang-raped.

To be fair to you, the trend of "Hyena-Zebra" always leaves me feeling dirty.

I mean, some guys - fuck, they bring it on themselves, and are all but asking for a huge dogpile.

But sometimes, many times, its just fucking mean and rude.  The one thing about BP that pisses me off more than anything.

QuoteEDIT - you weren't the only one. Far from it. The Usual Suspect jackasses were another. And Nisarg. Sweet fucking god Nisarg. Never has there been a time someone on the internet made me want to commit unspeakable atrocities just to shut them the fuck up.

And yet you wind up on his site.  ;)  Don't feel bad though, I did too.  It's a nice place, in spite of him though.

And I can't condemn the dogpiling too harshly, if only because that would be more than a bit hypocritical, myself having occasionally been part of some of those dogpiles.

What's BP?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityActually, he hasn't, and we haven't either.

Actually this was taken care of in the thread that RPG Pundit started in TT:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100019&postcount=32

He was satisfied and hasn't sad anything more and he is the admin.  If he can get past it then so can you.

Move the fuck on already.

Quote from: walkerpWhat's BP?

Big Purple- A nickname for rpg.net

Quote from: Blue DevilActually this was taken care of in the thread that RPG Pundit started in TT:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100019&postcount=32

He was satisfied and hasn't sad anything more and he is the admin.  If he can get past it then so can you.

Move the fuck on already.

We'll see about satisfaction, spammer.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWe'll see about satisfaction, spammer.

And it's been settled that I am not a spammer.  And the way you use the word spammer it is clear you don't know what the hell the term means.

And try as you might I am not going anywhere.

Welcome to my ignore list.

The fact that you're not a mere spammer doesn't stop you from being both annoying and opportunistic, though.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThe fact that you're not a mere spammer doesn't stop you from being both annoying and opportunistic, though.

RPGPundit

Please, I have been adding to the threads I have been contributing to threads and I have been giving more then one line answers.

I know since I have my own website now I am on the outs with you because I am not a "good little rpgsite solider".  

And if you say that I am opportunistic you can say that about anyone with a link in their signature file who posts.

 Including yourself.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe fact that you're not a mere spammer doesn't stop you from being both annoying and opportunistic, though.

RPGPundit

:D  I laughed.

Quote from: Blue DevilPlease, I have been adding to the threads I have been contributing to threads and I have been giving more then one line answers.

Yes, hence you're not a mere spammer.

QuoteI know since I have my own website now I am on the outs with you because I am not a "good little rpgsite solider".  

I never thought you were.

QuoteAnd if you say that I am opportunistic you can say that about anyone with a link in their signature file who posts.

 Including yourself.

Its more than just having a .sig file.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIts more than just having a .sig file.

RPGPundit

Then enlighten me on what you think Qualifies me being annoying and opportunistic.

I mean shit, I am posting I am contributing.  You said it was settled in the thread you created in Help Desk, I may have disagreed with things you have said but I haven't taken any shots at The RPG Site since then.  Now I am getting flack from you again.

Do you want me to contribute or not?

The matter is settled as far as whether or not you're a spammer; you do contribute to this site, and for however long you keep doing so, you're welcome to be here. You're even welcome to continue shilling your site within reason.

But there's no doubt at all that you shill away...pretending like you're not, or that you don't occasionally (often, some might say) post on a thread exclusively to do a bit of shilling, is kind of disingenuous of you.

Again, I don't have a problem with you advertising your site here, within reason. So don't feel like you have to lie about doing so, or justify yourself.

As for annoying, that's more my personal feeling than anything else (i'm sure you'd feel the same way if I was on your board, constantly claiming that you're a bad mod). You won't get in trouble for that either.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThe matter is settled as far as whether or not you're a spammer; you do contribute to this site, and for however long you keep doing so, you're welcome to be here. You're even welcome to continue shilling your site within reason.

But there's no doubt at all that you shill away...pretending like you're not, or that you don't occasionally (often, some might say) post on a thread exclusively to do a bit of shilling, is kind of disingenuous of you.

The only shilling I know of that I do is have my site in my signature file.  I may have used it as an example:  I believe I said "Things said on this site and my site do not matter because the majority of gamers do not go online".  If you consider that shilling that that's your prospective.

Quote from: RPGPunditAgain, I don't have a problem with you advertising your site here, within reason. So don't feel like you have to lie about doing so, or justify yourself.

I haven't lied.  The Majority of the shilling has remained in my signature file (I don't see everyone with a site in their signiture file getting crap).

Quote from: RPGPunditAs for annoying, that's more my personal feeling than anything else (i'm sure you'd feel the same way if I was on your board, constantly claiming that you're a bad mod). You won't get in trouble for that either.

And this is where you are wrong.  I have never said you were a bad mod.  I think your "Swine Theory and Paranoia that people are trying to subvert the hobby are off base.  They really are.  Noone is trying to subvert the hobby.

As a matter of fact nowhere in the "Who really cares about Free Speech" thread did I say you were a bod moderator.  

In the pistols thread that can be found here:  

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=111975&postcount=252

I said:

"The Pundit is the Pundit and that's fine. He likes D&D and D20 and I do not, I don't begrudge that (to each his own). But when he spouts his weird paranoia that is something I cannot stand and I feel I need to speak out. The rest I can ignore"

I don't think that your a bad mod, I simply think your off base labeling of people Swine and Elitisim is what's wrong with the hobby and turns people off.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralOh jesus christ - both you and Werekoala were shit disturbers of the highest order.  Fucking sanctimonious bullshit.  Werekoala way moreso than you, but Pseudo, you had some pretty hardcore passive-aggressive and deliberately obtuse asshattery going for quite some time.  Werekoala was quite frankly an annoying pissant and the site is better for him having gone.

Bullshit. If anyone's being sanctimonious here, it's you.

I had a problem with the RPG.net moderation and I was quite open about it. The "deliberately obtuse" and "passive-aggressive" phrases you used are cliched bullshit, vacuous and without any relevance to my situation. I didn't like the moderation policies of RPG.net, and I thought that the mods did a bad job of enforcing even those bad policies. I didn't hide that, though I also tried not to get banned in the process of pointing it out by being lured into making a PA.

There's no "deliberate obtuseness" there - I didn't pretend not to realise something. Nor was there "passive-aggression" - I didn't pretend to like or be indifferent to the mods and their policies while secretly sniping at them. Use expressions that accurately describe things, not buzzwords and cliches.

Furthermore, I'm contemptuous as shit of any definition of "asshattery" that really just means "Didn't agree with the majority", which is really what you mean. I don't deny I held an unpopular position and that I argued at length and with great enthusiasm for that position, but if you think that's "asshattery", you're advocating a position that should be held in contempt.

I'm not even banned from the site last I checked. I logged out after Curt started threadstalking me, and have never logged back in.

Holy crap BD, do my eyes deceive me?  Have you actually gone beyond the sophomoric announcement of ignore list additions and explored the idea of continuous sig file presentation?  That's frankly awesome.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralTo be fair to you, the trend of "Hyena-Zebra" always leaves me feeling dirty.

I mean, some guys - fuck, they bring it on themselves, and are all but asking for a huge dogpile.

But sometimes, many times, its just fucking mean and rude.  The one thing about BP that pisses me off more than anything.

And yet you have been involved in more than one, you hypocritical cunt. Heck, you fucking dogpiled me when I said that I didn't vote in the last election. If that leaves you feeling dirty, then don't do it. It's a contemptible thing to sniff at the cleanliness of others when you're covered in pigshit.

Quote from: HalfjackHoly crap BD, do my eyes deceive me?  Have you actually gone beyond the sophomoric announcement of ignore list additions and explored the idea of continuous sig file presentation?  That's frankly awesome.

He should ask susan death/Ross N how well that went over for him elsewhere.  ;)

Quote from: PseudoephedrineAnd yet you have been involved in more than one, you hypocritical cunt. Heck, you fucking dogpiled me when I said that I didn't vote in the last election. If that leaves you feeling dirty, then don't do it. It's a contemptible thing to sniff at the cleanliness of others when you're covered in pigshit.

Can't even recall it.  If you have a link, I'd sure like to see it.  Cause I have never, to my mind, dogpiled anyone.  I've gotten into some heated arguements, and sometimes the person on the other side gets creamed cause they were acting like an ass, posting stupid shit, and gets righteously reamed for it, but I have never particpated in the special breed of "zebra-hyena" shit that pops up on tangency, to my mind.

Now, as someone on the recieving end, you obviously feel like you WERE.  Again, if theres a link, I'd love to see it.  Mostly to satisfy my opinion.  I can remember most of the really big arguements, but I can't for the life of me recall this one.

Oh for pity's sake...

 And people thought I was Big purple-bashing or mentioning it too much.

 Let it go - they don't really talk about games anymore anyway.
The pimple that was Tangency has now become that site.



Now,...who'd like to have a Nice little game of GURPS:TRAVELLER with Pirates and Ice Cream??


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarOh for pity's sake...

 And people thought I was Big purple-bashing or mentioning it too much.

 Let it go - they don't really talk about games anymore anyway.
The pimple that was Tangency has now become that site.



Now,...who'd like to have a Nice little game of GURPS:TRAVELLER with Pirates and Ice Cream??


- Ed C.

Total bullshit.  But thats par for the course when airing beefs about BP.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralTotal bullshit.  But thats par for the course when airing beefs about BP.

 Yes, yes  - you're still in love with the Purple & Pink - we know that by now.

 So ...about that nice game of TRAVELLER....


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarLet it go - they don't really talk about games anymore anyway.
The pimple that was Tangency has now become that site.

Really?  Out of curiosity, how many users are currently viewing RP Open?  Let's see...at this moment...384.

How about The RPGsite?  Right now...90.  Highest ever?  280.

Nyah...they never talk about games...:D

Quote from: Tom BReally?  Out of curiosity, how many users are currently viewing RP Open?  Let's see...at this moment...384.

And by way of comparison:

"Tabletop Roleplaying Open (387 Viewing)

...

Tangency Open (85 Viewing)"

Tangency is not bigger than Open nor has it replaced Open, but I think it is fair to say that most rule and mod policy changes seem to be caused by events in Tangency.  So Tangency hasn't taken over, but the original mission of the site seems distorted by its existence.

Quote from: jrientsTangency is not bigger than Open nor has it replaced Open, but I think it is fair to say that most rule and mod policy changes seem to be caused by events in Tangency.  So Tangency hasn't taken over, but the original mission of the site seems distorted by its existence.

Um... actually, it IS bigger than Open. Tangency has 130k threads and 3.3million+ posts, versus Open's 83k threads and 2.1 million posts.  That would make Tangency about 50% bigger (1.5 times bigger) than Open.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditUm... actually, it IS bigger than Open. Tangency has 130k threads and 3.3million+ posts, versus Open's 83k threads and 2.1 million posts.  That would make Tangency about 50% bigger (1.5 times bigger) than Open.

RPGPundit

Sure, but nobody can claim that "they don't talk about gaming" or that "Tangency has become the site".  Whatever Tangency does or becomes, there is still plenty of roleplaying discussion.  Ignoring Tangency is remarkably easy to do.

Quote from: RPGPunditUm... actually, it IS bigger than Open. Tangency has 130k threads and 3.3million+ posts, versus Open's 83k threads and 2.1 million posts.  That would make Tangency about 50% bigger (1.5 times bigger) than Open.

RPGPundit

Tangency is a cancer at BP.

Quote from: RPGPunditUm... actually, it IS bigger than Open. Tangency has 130k threads and 3.3million+ posts, versus Open's 83k threads and 2.1 million posts.  That would make Tangency about 50% bigger (1.5 times bigger) than Open.

Yeah, but you're counting threads with nothing but 500 pictures of con chicks in skimpy costumes or one-word-per-post storytelling games.  I'm much more interested in the fact that a smaller number of users, some of which seem to only come to Open occasionally or not at all, are generating so much content.  In other words I think you should count the people first and their output second.

Quote from: HalfjackHoly crap BD, do my eyes deceive me?  Have you actually gone beyond the sophomoric announcement of ignore list additions and explored the idea of continuous sig file presentation?  That's frankly awesome.

I did that only so they would know they were ignored and wouldn't waste their time trying to talk to me.

It wasn't going to be kept forever and I removed it right when I logged on today (even before seeing this message).

Quote from: RPGPunditUm... actually, it IS bigger than Open. Tangency has 130k threads and 3.3million+ posts, versus Open's 83k threads and 2.1 million posts.  That would make Tangency about 50% bigger (1.5 times bigger) than Open.

RPGPundit

In a certain way of viewing things.  Thousands of 5 posts threads of "I'm bored entertain me" and "Britpack - we meetin at the pub?" "Yup"  "Nope can't be arsed", "Not if GarryG is wearing those orange pants" make for a lot of threads.

The focus of the site is, and will always be, RPGs despite the hew and cry from whiners its otherwise.  Its not games Pundit likes, so he can complain about that too.

Quote from: LacrioxusTangency is a cancer at BP.

Yes yes yes.  A horrible cancer that must be scourged.

Pundits own Tangency...errr...Forum, is, of course, fine and dandy.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralYes yes yes.  A horrible cancer that must be scourged.

Pundits own Tangency...errr...Forum, is, of course, fine and dandy.

 The two do not compare.
That is NOT a good analogy.

Quote from: KoltarThe two do not compare.
That is NOT a good analogy.

Yeah...in Tangency you have the "in" crowd and the outsiders who say unpopular things that the admins and "in" crowd don't like.  They get insulted and marginalized.

In Pundit's Tangency you have...well...a lot of the same, actually.  They're starting to look more and more alike...:D

Pundit is not ban-happy, though.  I'll give him that.  (So far...;))

wait.. i'm sorry.. are you suggesting that the Quantity of posts on Tangency do not equate to Quality?? I am shocked! Shocked, I tell you!!

(http://xeb.xanga.com/121d96e409632128804466/w93636453.jpg)

RPGPundit

When the sheer volume of inane posts and threads in The Pundit's Own Forum causes him to cripple the search functionality for the entire site, and institute idiotic forum-wide mod rules, then The Pundit's Own Forum will have become Tangency.  Until then... not so much.

KoOS

Quote from: RPGPunditwait.. i'm sorry.. are you suggesting that the Quantity of posts on Tangency do not equate to Quality?? I am shocked! Shocked, I tell you!!

(http://xeb.xanga.com/121d96e409632128804466/w93636453.jpg)

RPGPundit

Heh.  Thats a fucking AWESOME cartoon.  I'm going to use it on the next guy who complains on Tangency that Bush is a fucking moron.  :D

Quote from: King of Old SchoolWhen the sheer volume of inane posts and threads in The Pundit's Own Forum causes him to cripple the search functionality for the entire site, and institute idiotic forum-wide mod rules, then The Pundit's Own Forum will have become Tangency. Until then... not so much.

Exactly.  Tangency is directly responsible for some of the more idiotic forum rules.  And it is indirectly responsible for for the lack of decent search capability and some of the recent database crashes.  
 
It might be possible to ignore Tangency, but it's not possible to ignore the effect it has on the site as a whole.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralCan't even recall it.  If you have a link, I'd sure like to see it.  Cause I have never, to my mind, dogpiled anyone.  I've gotten into some heated arguements, and sometimes the person on the other side gets creamed cause they were acting like an ass, posting stupid shit, and gets righteously reamed for it, but I have never particpated in the special breed of "zebra-hyena" shit that pops up on tangency, to my mind.

Now, as someone on the recieving end, you obviously feel like you WERE.  Again, if theres a link, I'd love to see it.  Mostly to satisfy my opinion.  I can remember most of the really big arguements, but I can't for the life of me recall this one.

Go find it on Tangency yourself. I'm not sticking my dick into that fanblade.

I don't know why people get so bent out of shape on the net. Half the problems on any forum stem from people's apparent need to moderate things as if the lack of moderation means that everyone will morph into screaming child molesting nazi racists.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineGo find it on Tangency yourself. I'm not sticking my dick into that fanblade.

Riiiiight.

You know what?  Fuck that, and fuck you.  I'm not wasting my time trying to figure out if I hurt your fucking feelings.  If I dogpiled you, you fucking deserved it, and it was like, the only one I have any knowledge of, and only because you brought it up.  In my 4-5 years on that boards, I can honestly say I have contributed WAY more positive than negative.  You can't.  

I am not concerned about your hurt feelings over the one dogpiling I may have contributed to on that board, and if I did contribute to it, it was only tangentally.

You want to accuse me of something, but can't be arsed to provide the proof to back it up?  Fuck you.  You don't want to "stick your dick in that fanblade"?  Stick your dick in your mouth and shut the fuck up.  What comes out your dick is about what comes out your mouth on most occasions, and they are worth about the same.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralRiiiiight.

You know what?  Fuck that, and fuck you.  I'm not wasting my time trying to figure out if I hurt your fucking feelings.  If I dogpiled you, you fucking deserved it, and it was like, the only one I have any knowledge of, and only because you brought it up.  In my 4-5 years on that boards, I can honestly say I have contributed WAY more positive than negative.  You can't.  

I am not concerned about your hurt feelings over the one dogpiling I may have contributed to on that board, and if I did contribute to it, it was only tangentally.

You want to accuse me of something, but can't be arsed to provide the proof to back it up?  Fuck you.  You don't want to "stick your dick in that fanblade"?  Stick your dick in your mouth and shut the fuck up.  What comes out your dick is about what comes out your mouth on most occasions, and they are worth about the same.

reported

ok, not really.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralRiiiiight.
>snip<
 What comes out your dick is about what comes out your mouth on most occasions, and they are worth about the same.

Hey you can make good money selling that stuff. :D

Quote from: HackmastergeneralIn my 4-5 years on that boards, I can honestly say I have contributed WAY more positive than negative.  You can't.

Sure I can. I ran over a dozen well-regarded PbPs, I contributed extensively to RPG Open and was a well-respected member in the philosophy subforum. I even wrote a few reviews of new products. You, on the other hand, mostly hung around in Tangency and played the part of a self-righteous nationalist unless something drastic has changed.

In short, you're a liar. Perhaps not intentionally, but you're lying right now to make yourself feel better. It's obvious, and it's pathetic.

QuoteI am not concerned about your hurt feelings over the one dogpiling I may have contributed to on that board, and if I did contribute to it, it was only tangentally.

"I'm didn't do it, and anyhow, you deserved it!"

QuoteYou want to accuse me of something, but can't be arsed to provide the proof to back it up?  Fuck you.  You don't want to "stick your dick in that fanblade"?  Stick your dick in your mouth and shut the fuck up.  What comes out your dick is about what comes out your mouth on most occasions, and they are worth about the same.

You're descending into gibberish.

It's not that I "can't be arsed" to "provide the proof". It's that I said back at the start of this conversation that I had logged out of RPG.net on principle and had no intention of going back. Asking me to go back to its very nadir - and to go back to a forum that you need to log in to see - was a dumb thing to ask. I suspect you did it because you are a careless reader and thinker.

Not saying I like either one of you two.

 But to be fair to Pseudophedrine - rpg.net is NOT that easy to search as compared to other vbulletin formatr style  forums.

 On HERE and on the  SJG forums I can usually find an old thread or topic if I pick the right word or word combination - Big Purple? Not so much ...if ever.

- Ed C.

It's not merely that it's difficult. It's that I have a pretty openly-stated principled objection to logging into RPG.net, which is required to view Tang. I also dislike going back to RPG.net in general (since I don't want to support Skotos' ad revenues). I've said this many times. It's not a secret. I even said it in this discussion.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineSure I can. I ran over a dozen well-regarded PbPs, I contributed extensively to RPG Open and was a well-respected member in the philosophy subforum. I even wrote a few reviews of new products. You, on the other hand, mostly hung around in Tangency and played the part of a self-righteous nationalist unless something drastic has changed.

In short, you're a liar. Perhaps not intentionally, but you're lying right now to make yourself feel better. It's obvious, and it's pathetic.

Ha.  We can swing dicks all day over who did what.  You were involved in and started more arguements than I care to remember.  Mostly because you had strongly held views you didn't back down from - which is a fuck of a lot better than, say, just coming into threads and swinging your dick around.  That part was played by others.  

I don't have to lie to make myself feel better.  I never felt bad about myself in the first place.  I feel I have contributed to many positive things at RPG.net -
posts to the index, participating in a few PbP (I don't like PbP, so I never got around to running).  Your view of my participation is dim, at best.  But thats fine - you never let facts get in the way of any arguements before.

Quote"I'm didn't do it, and anyhow, you deserved it!"

I don't remember it - so I can't say if I did or not.  But if I DID, I have no qualms about thinking you were acting like an ass.

QuoteYou're descending into gibberish.

It's not that I "can't be arsed" to "provide the proof". It's that I said back at the start of this conversation that I had logged out of RPG.net on principle and had no intention of going back. Asking me to go back to its very nadir - and to go back to a forum that you need to log in to see - was a dumb thing to ask. I suspect you did it because you are a careless reader and thinker.

I spent 15-20 minutes this morning combing through Tangency, cause I was genuinely interested in trying to find it.  Then I realized - this isn't my ball.  I didn't say anything, and its not worth my time trying to prove Pseudo's shit.

I really don't care what he thinks of me - in the words of Moe, in regards to Pseudo "I'm a well-wisher - in that I don't wish you any SPECIFIC harm."  If he feels bad enough to have a grudge against me, thats his thing - I don't need to prove or disprove his shit.

If I HAD done it, and if it was nasty enough for him to remember, I would feel sorry about it if it were undeserved.  I've always felt that the only people I ever get really pissy at are the ones acting like idiots, and that I comport myself ratehr well in most circumstances - i mean, we all have buttons, and sometimes someone pushes em and we get defensive.  God knows, Pseudo's buttons were pushed more than a few times.  

But I don't really care enough to go scratching for it if its not that important to him either.  

So, what the fuck.  Nothing he says is going to make me feel bad, or whatever.  

And as for Tangency - there was a period where it seemed every game I enjoyed was under attack in every thread about ti, so I got burned out on the RPGOpen flamers for a while and posted mostly on Tangency.  Sorry that offended you.  Don't know where the "nationalist" thing comes from, I mean I'm a proud Canadian, but I would hardly call myself a "nationalist".  I've been vocal in my disdain for those who think Canadian nationalism can be eloquently summed up in a fuckin beer commercial, or that it is being what the US isn't.  And vocal in my disdain for those who wish to attack America for what their idiot president is doing.

Pundit, could you move this thread to off topic please?  It has fuck all to do with roleplaying games.

Point of fact: the search function on RPGnet doesn't work in Tangency (at least according to the FAQ) so it's somewhat unreasonable to expect Pseudoephedrine to go do a search for it... even if he were inclined to log onto RPGnet, which he isn't.

And I agree with Balbinus, this thread should be moved.

KoOS

Ok, I figure this has spent enough time in the main forum.

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOk, I figure this has spent enough time in the main forum.

RPGpundit

Probably long overdue, yeah.

Oh wait - OH NOES U MOVD A THRED!  ADMIN BIAS!!11!!1!  U R SENSERING MY SPEACH!!!  ITS IN TEH GETTO OF OFF TOPIC!

That seems to fit more the original intent of this thread....

Quote from: HackmastergeneralProbably long overdue, yeah.

Oh wait - OH NOES U MOVD A THRED!  ADMIN BIAS!!11!!1!  U R SENSERING MY SPEACH!!!  ITS IN TEH GETTO OF OFF TOPIC!

That seems to fit more the original intent of this thread....

And thus we move full circle back to the OP.

I wonder if walkerp will throw a fit about this thread getting moved too?  ;)

Quote from: J ArcaneAnd thus we move full circle back to the OP.

I wonder if walkerp will throw a fit about this thread getting moved too?  ;)

Your happy teardrop of evil avatar creeps the fuck out of me on days where I'm getting no sleep.  Just so you know... :)

Quote from: HackmastergeneralYour happy teardrop of evil avatar creeps the fuck out of me on days where I'm getting no sleep.  Just so you know... :)

Slime FTW!

*falls off chair laughing*

I so want to tell ya'll to take it to TBP...*starts laughing again*

Hack and Pseudo, you guys made my night....I don't know why it's so damn funny. I'm not even drunk!

Hackmaster> I don't hold a grudge against you. I just have a low opinion of you, and you jumped into this conversation to attack Werekoala and me. If you don't want to get into arguments with me, then I suggest you don't get into arguments with me. It's a bit silly to play the aggrieved victim when you jumped into a thread that otherwise hadn't even alluded to you and say that the participants are full of shit.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineHackmaster> I don't hold a grudge against you. I just have a low opinion of you, and you jumped into this conversation to attack Werekoala and me. If you don't want to get into arguments with me, then I suggest you don't get into arguments with me. It's a bit silly to play the aggrieved victim when you jumped into a thread that otherwise hadn't even alluded to you and say that the participants are full of shit.

I jumped in cause you and Koala were playing the "aggreived victims of RPG.net", when you guys were two people who swung those dicks around enough times on your own.  Don't play the martyr when you are the agent of your own fate.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolPoint of fact: the search function on RPGnet doesn't work in Tangency

I just did several Tang searches that worked. They didn't go very far back, and it seems a poster name search doesn't work, but keyword searches seem to function.

Quote from: danzig138I just did several Tang searches that worked. They didn't go very far back, and it seems a poster name search doesn't work, but keyword searches seem to function.

Yeah, but that isn't the VBulletin search, that's a third party search engine. So the statement that RPG.net's search does not work is true - the Vbulletin search has been disabled because it brings the entire board to a screeching halt when more than a couple people use it. On top of that, the third party search is craptacular enough to be be deemed nonfunctional.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralI jumped in cause you and Koala were playing the "aggreived victims of RPG.net", when you guys were two people who swung those dicks around enough times on your own.  Don't play the martyr when you are the agent of your own fate.

I'm not playing the martyr. As I pointed out, I've never been banned from RPG.net. I left it because I thought it was full of bullshit, specifically in letting Curt run wild as a moderator. Stop thinking in cliches.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralI jumped in cause you and Koala were playing the "aggreived victims of RPG.net", when you guys were two people who swung those dicks around enough times on your own.  Don't play the martyr when you are the agent of your own fate.

I was playing the "person who got dogpiled as scores of others have simply for having an opinion that ran contrary to the Hive-Mind and was incessantly dogpiled until I got banned because I wouldnt just shut up and take it", actually. Slight difference.

Its just kind of crappy and boring over there,....and purple.

 And oh yeahh .. SEE??? Told you the vbulletin search was practically impossible over there.  But NO  , you wouldn't believe me.


- Ed C.

Quote from: WerekoalaI was playing the "person who got dogpiled as scores of others have simply for having an opinion that ran contrary to the Hive-Mind and was incessantly dogpiled until I got banned because I wouldnt just shut up and take it", actually. Slight difference.

If you walk into a KKK meeting and say Martin Luther King was a great bloke, don't be surprised when somebody smacks you.

Quote from: droogIf you walk into a KKK meeting and say Martin Luther King was a great bloke, don't be surprised when somebody smacks you.

I didn't know it was a KKK meeting when I signed up. :)

You live and you learn, young feller.

Quote from: droogIf you walk into a KKK meeting and say Martin Luther King was a great bloke, don't be surprised when somebody smacks you.

Actually in the Koala's case, it was more akin to walking into a Nation of Islam meeting and wondering where the David Duke Appreciation seminar was.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralActually in the Koala's case, it was more akin to walking into a Nation of Islam meeting and wondering where the David Duke Appreciation seminar was.

Ooo, nice one! Been talking to Jakko have ye?

No but thats about the level of "fucktard" you gave in most of your posts.

Going into a KKK meeting and propping Luther King Jr is dumb, but a brave thing to do.

You were just mostly as ass.  You brought everything on yourself, so I have no sympathy, and the bitching about the moderation on tBP rings hollow when you go out of your way to shit up the place.

There are some who have a legit beef with moderation.  Others, like you, are just bitching because they called you on your shit.  You may have some legit beefs - I didn't stalk your posts or anything, so I don't know.  But I do know you were overly aggressive, very trollish in a lot of cases, and just generally a disagreeable person to try to communicate with.

A few more posts to the RPG section of the site wouldn't go amiss, i'm sure. ;)

Quote from: HackmastergeneralNo but thats about the level of "fucktard" you gave in most of your posts.

Going into a KKK meeting and propping Luther King Jr is dumb, but a brave thing to do.

You were just mostly as ass.  You brought everything on yourself, so I have no sympathy, and the bitching about the moderation on tBP rings hollow when you go out of your way to shit up the place.

There are some who have a legit beef with moderation.  Others, like you, are just bitching because they called you on your shit.  You may have some legit beefs - I didn't stalk your posts or anything, so I don't know.  But I do know you were overly aggressive, very trollish in a lot of cases, and just generally a disagreeable person to try to communicate with.

Guess I'll be taking your birthday present back, then. :P

Do I still exhibit those tendencies here, would you say?

Quote from: WerekoalaDo I still exhibit those tendencies here, would you say?

I hope Hackmastergeneral replies. I've noticed that the extremely confrontational posting style of some over at tBP most times is not really on display here...which is to say even though you didn't ask me, I would have to say, no.

Regards,
David R

There is still "confrontational posting" on here - but its much mellower brand of confrontational posting. (If such a thing is possible).

It does strike me funny seeing someone defendong rpg.net on a forum site where most of the posters are either angry at rpg.net, burned out on it - or would rather just stop hearing about it.


- Ed C.

Heh!  And people try and defend Tangency... that place is a cancer.  The sooner it gets split into a separate site with it's own moderation rules, the better.  RPG.net could then go back to being a site focused on, y'know, RPGs :rolleyes:

I'm just curious so I want to check facts...

WK is a right wing nut job, if I'm not mistaken...

Didn't HMG say he was pretty much a socialist?

So, could HMG's view that WK was so horrible be a political bias?

Cause, ya know, things like that happen..on occasion...sometimes...

Quote from: James J SkachI'm just curious so I want to check facts...

WK is a right wing nut job, if I'm not mistaken...

Didn't HMG say he was pretty much a socialist?

So, could HMG's view that WK was so horrible be a political bias?

Cause, ya know, things like that happen..on occasion...sometimes...

As I said, the only reason I was such a "bad" "confrontational" poster is that I stood up for the unpopular (i.e. just to the right of Marxist) viewpoints that were not held by the other, vocal, dogpiliers there, and when I get dogpiled, it tends to make me fight back. So yes, that's at least what the root of the problem is/was. I was therefore made an example of, as many others have been.

Now, if I had just kept my mouth shut, gone alongto get along... well, then that wouldn't be much better.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkHeh!  And people try and defend Tangency... that place is a cancer.  The sooner it gets split into a separate site with it's own moderation rules, the better.  RPG.net could then go back to being a site focused on, y'know, RPGs :rolleyes:

C'mon...Tang isn't that bad. I like it there. And crazy broad that I am, I've never been banned. One warning. I don't have much to say about RPGs (which I've stated in the past) so I mainly hang in OT parts. Same as here, and on TMP. ALthough my hubby banned me from posting to the politics board on TMP, as he doesn't want my beliefs to possibly taint customer reactions. Which is a good idea for me! :D

Quote from: shewolfC'mon...Tang isn't that bad.

Cancer is often defined as,

"A general term for about 100 diseases characterized by uncontrolled, abnormal growth of cells. The resulting mass, or tumor, can invade and destroy surrounding normal tissues. Cancer cells from the tumor can spread through the blood or lymph (the clear fluid that bathes body cells) to start new cancers in other parts of the body (metastases)."

Tangency Open is a subforum which is twice as large in threads and posts as any roleplaying subforum. It has uncontrolled growth, and that growth is "abnormal", just as for example a stomach tumour is abnormal growth since the tumour does not process food the way the rest of the stomach does - that is, the posts are not about roleplaying, which was the original purpose of rpg.net.

Tangency Open's posts and threads "invade and destroy" other subforums in a few ways.

Firstly, the attention given by people visiting the site to Tangency Open distracts from the roleplaying subforums.

Secondly, the issues in Tangency Open being discussed are political, sexual, personal and so on. Naturally people take these much more seriously and to heart than they do talking about roleplaying games. So it's from Tangency Open that we get rules against personal attacks, group attacks, etc etc. These begin as very sensible and useful things, but end up with people in the roleplaying subforum saying, "d20 players suck" and getting warnings and suspensions over it. Thus, rules and moderation which come from non-roleplaying issues stifle roleplaying conversations.

Thirdly, arguments carried from Tangency Open mean that posters put one another on ignore, and thus miss out on comments the person makes about roleplaying. This also stifles conversations about roleplaying.

Fourthly, and most importantly, several times now rpg.net has crashed because the number of threads and posts on it exceeded the software's ability to handle; cut out the non-roleplaying parts of the forum, and you immediately make space. But this is not acceptable to "the Tangency community" - and the mods who spring from it - and so more workarounds are developed, for example getting rid of the vbulletin search function. These complicated workarounds and patches lead to a worse performance in speed and utility for the site as a whole.

In all these ways, Tangency Open resembles a cancer on the roleplaying body of rpg.net. It should be excised.

But of course it won't be. A good number of the mods wouldn't be mods if they'd not been able to establish themselves in "the Tangency community." Nor would most of them know what to talk about if they could only post in the roleplaying subforums.

I'm shaking my head at Ron Edwards latest posts where he publicly accuses someone of making a personal attack, asking the mods to step in.

The personal attack? Someone compared the dice mechanics in his game to Risk.

Yep - that's a personal attack in RE's bizarre little world.

Holy crap.  You got a link to that, GoOrange?

Thread about problems with Sorcerer (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=338605)

I linked the whole thread so you can read it in context and judge for yourself.

RE is just so far gone I no longer have words for it.

Edit: before he edits out the juicy bits - here's RE's reply to one poster

Quote2. Jack Spenser's post is deliberately trying to confuse readers and misrepresent the game. He very well knows that the Sorcerer dice system is not Risk's, and that trying to apply Risk to it will be laborious and awful. This is dishonest and in my view constitutes a personal attack. If RPG.net's moderators were to do their job in this case, I'd appreciate it.

Dishonesty is a PA ...in an rpg thread ? :D

Regards,
David R

-E. wins that thread with "Although if it's hard for some folks to figure out, an ashcan edition might be just the thing".

Everyone who still has RPG.net accounts should go REPORT Ron Edwards!  That kind of statement in the thread (and not sent via the regular report function) has been considered to constitute a personal attack.

I have no illusion that they'll DO anything to him, but people should report it so that the Modclique can't turn around and claim "no one reported it". If they weren't a gang of fucking hypocrites, they'd have to sanction Edwards.

RPGpundit

Quote from: jrients-E. wins that thread with "Although if it's hard for some folks to figure out, an ashcan edition might be just the thing".

Absolutely.

Quote from: RPGPunditAbsolutely.

I lol'd. Very right, in this case. A very funny jab indeed.

Okay what's ashcan - I know it's a Forge term -and didn't Ron realize it's sounds too much like trashcan ?

Regards,
David R

i thought it was a comic book term, like a smaller, digest-sized publication.  usually a freebie too :confused:

unless that's part of the joke, but i really don't know much about RE except what i get occasionally from the boards

Quote from: beeberi thought it was a comic book term, like a smaller, digest-sized publication.  usually a freebie too :confused:

unless that's part of the joke, but i really don't know much about RE except what i get occasionally from the boards

Oh..okay. I thought it was a design term or something...

Regards,
David R

Quote2. Jack Spenser's post is deliberately trying to confuse readers and misrepresent the game. He very well knows that the Sorcerer dice system is not Risk's, and that trying to apply Risk to it will be laborious and awful. This is dishonest and in my view constitutes a personal attack. If RPG.net's moderators were to do their job in this case, I'd appreciate it.

Ho-lee crap. :rolleyes:
That has to be the single, lamest most pathetic whine I've ever heard on RPGNet. It even beats the "Reported this guy for telling a joke about Firefly I didn't find funny" and "Woe is me because I ratted a teammate out in WoW for having a (possibly) illegal name and now nobody likes me."

I've never read anything of Rons, and now it's unlikely I ever will. He's on the list, folks like that aren't worth wasting the electrons on.

Quote from: David ROkay what's ashcan - I know it's a Forge term -and didn't Ron realize it's sounds too much like trashcan ?

Regards,
David R

It's a Forge term for "I sell you a shitty unfinished draft for way too much money".

Quote from: David ROkay what's ashcan - I know it's a Forge term -and didn't Ron realize it's sounds too much like trashcan ?

Regards,
David R

Lately, its a term Edwards has used to insult up and coming forgies that he's scared will overshadow him as Swine King. He used it to suggest that their games are inferior and still need work compared to his "magnum opus".  So when someone suggests to do an "ashcan" of Sorcerer, its giving Edwards a taste of his own medicine.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditLately, its a term Edwards has used to insult up and coming forgies that he's scared will overshadow him as Swine King. He used it to suggest that their games are inferior and still need work compared to his "magnum opus".  So when someone suggests to do an "ashcan" of Sorcerer, its giving Edwards a taste of his own medicine.

RPGPundit

are you serious?  is this guy for real?  i guess one would be hard-pressed to invent such ridiculousness.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: WerekoalaGuess I'll be taking your birthday present back, then. :P

Do I still exhibit those tendencies here, would you say?

I'd say no.  Some places bring out the worst in some people - I notice people who were calmer of tBP more aggressive here, and some who were uber aggressive on there to be a bit more rational here.

Course, I'm not here much - till recently - so I can't say for certain.

Understand - I have nothing NOTHING personal against you, or Pseudo.  I just find the claims of MOD OPPRESHUNZ! a bit far fetched, on the whole.  I have very rarely seen people sanctioned who didn't honestly deserve it, in one way or another.

Have there been mistakes?  Sure.  Have some people gotten on the end of a pissy mod?  Absolutely.  But I'd rate those in about a 20% ratio.  But the banhammer really only comes out for those who really deserve it.  I've yet to see more than a rare handful of people who got perma-banned who didn't deserve it.

Quote from: James J SkachI'm just curious so I want to check facts...

WK is a right wing nut job, if I'm not mistaken...

Didn't HMG say he was pretty much a socialist?

So, could HMG's view that WK was so horrible be a political bias?

Cause, ya know, things like that happen..on occasion...sometimes...

Then why do I carry on rational conversations with other conservatives?

Sancrosanct, Pyrogod, etc.  I don't like people who act like dicks.  Be they liberal, conservative or "miscellaneous".  WK acted like a dick.  He doesn't here as much.

Quote from: JimBobOzCancer is often defined as,



"jimbob's constant bitchfest against tangency."

QuoteTangency Open is a subforum which is twice as large in threads and posts as any roleplaying subforum. It has uncontrolled growth, and that growth is "abnormal", just as for example a stomach tumour is abnormal growth since the tumour does not process food the way the rest of the stomach does - that is, the posts are not about roleplaying, which was the original purpose of rpg.net.

It would not be that way if the majority of posters didn't like it.  This post is not about roleplaying, nor is a small but significant part of this forum.  I have NEVER seen a webforum that DIDN'T have off-topic conversations.  Few of them have been around as long as RPG.net in all its incarnations.

Also, excising anything "Non RPG related" would mean ditching VGO and OMO, as well as the subfora like Philosophy and the photog one.  Have fun with that.

QuoteTangency Open's posts and threads "invade and destroy" other subforums in a few ways.

Firstly, the attention given by people visiting the site to Tangency Open distracts from the roleplaying subforums.

Except they don't.  RPG forums are well used with a high turnover rate.  One of the arguements for an Exalted subforum was the Exalted spam pushes other threads off the front page quickly - thus RPGO is well travelled.

QuoteSecondly, the issues in Tangency Open being discussed are political, sexual, personal and so on. Naturally people take these much more seriously and to heart than they do talking about roleplaying games. So it's from Tangency Open that we get rules against personal attacks, group attacks, etc etc. These begin as very sensible and useful things, but end up with people in the roleplaying subforum saying, "d20 players suck" and getting warnings and suspensions over it. Thus, rules and moderation which come from non-roleplaying issues stifle roleplaying conversations.

Some of the nastiest flamewars on RPG.net were RPG-related.  But I can't disagree with this.  Tang DOES drive a lot of the moderation.  We are just at opposite ends whether this actually matters or not.  Without Tang, the other fora would be just as heavily modded - as they try to excise all the non-RPG thread drift that would happen when you don't give people a place to chat about shit.

QuoteThirdly, arguments carried from Tangency Open mean that posters put one another on ignore, and thus miss out on comments the person makes about roleplaying. This also stifles conversations about roleplaying.

This can, and will, happen anyway.  Just for different reasons.  Most people, I think, ignore the Ignore - as they just end up reading the post anyway, or someone quotes them.

QuoteIn all these ways, Tangency Open resembles a cancer on the roleplaying body of rpg.net. It should be excised.

But of course it won't be. A good number of the mods wouldn't be mods if they'd not been able to establish themselves in "the Tangency community." Nor would most of them know what to talk about if they could only post in the roleplaying subforums.

It is a place people come to talk about stuff non-rpg related.  Its going to happen, one way or another.  Tang is what it is.  I agree, its big and cumbersome and drains resources.  But excising Tang would eliminate a vibrant subculture, and destroy a vital link that keeps people coming back to the place, and thus increasing traffic to the rest of the forums.

It won't happen because the vast majority of RPG.net posters LIKE Tangency.  They wouldn't post there so much if they didn't.  So, you want to excise a popular well travelled forum because YOU don't like it - fuck what the majority of people who actually POST there want.

If people didn't like what Tang has to offer, it wouldn't be what it is. Noone would post there.  Accept it.

So, finally, please - shut the fuck up about it, for once and for all.  How long is that fucking albatross going to be around your neck?  LET IT GO.  You are in a SMALL MINORITY of opinion on RPG.net  You don't like it - you didn't have to post there.  Focus your energy on USEFUL stuff, like boosting traffic on RPGO by making interesting topics and debates.  BUT don't tell me that what is something that is a popular feature on a well-travelled website is a fucking cancer - hyperbole much?  Noone wants cancer.  The vast majority of people on tBP obviously want, or like, Tang.  

Tang is like a Michael Bay movie.  It is what it is.  Some people can accept it at face value, and enjoy it, without expecting more that what it is.  Others have to bitch about how stupid it is endlessly, and wonder why he makes millions when his movies suck.  They don't suck - if they did, people wouldn't go see them in droves.  You may not LIKE them - sure.  And as art, they are poor quality.  But it still grosses millions - which makes the "suck" arguement ring hollow, and sound elitist and snobbish.  Because obviously, your "sucks" comment is in the small minority.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralI'd say no.  Some places bring out the worst in some people - I notice people who were calmer of tBP more aggressive here, and some who were uber aggressive on there to be a bit more rational here.

Course, I'm not here much - till recently - so I can't say for certain.

Understand - I have nothing NOTHING personal against you, or Pseudo.  I just find the claims of MOD OPPRESHUNZ! a bit far fetched, on the whole.  I have very rarely seen people sanctioned who didn't honestly deserve it, in one way or another.

Have there been mistakes?  Sure.  Have some people gotten on the end of a pissy mod?  Absolutely.  But I'd rate those in about a 20% ratio.  But the banhammer really only comes out for those who really deserve it.  I've yet to see more than a rare handful of people who got perma-banned who didn't deserve it.

You're still talking in cliches and blabbing as if there was a common basis of opinion here. No one else here is sympathetic to those cliches or that blabbing. Make a point, illustrate it with examples and support it with arguments. Don't make up statistics or assume a spurious authority. Take care in phrasing what you say so that you mean what you say. You've just completely undermined your own position by your adherence to shallow ways of thinking.

Dude, 300 posts devoted to discussing about another website. This never ceases to amaze me.

The question is not about Tangency Open's popularity, but whether it is good for the roleplaying part of the site. I didn't say that people didn't like Tangency Open. I just said that it had nothing to do with roleplaying, and that its existence and support detracted from roleplaying discussion on rpg.net.

If they started a h4wt b1tch3s pixx subforum, it would undoubtedly be extremely popular; but it would not, I think, really help the forums have more interesting rpg discussions. It would grow to be the single largest subforum, and strain the vbulletin software, leading to occasional forum crashes. Posters' conduct in that subforum would lead to the moderators bringing out new rules and procedures to deal with it all. Cliques would develop. The tone of the subforum, and the stifling nature of the moderators' conduct, would put off many people from posting in other subforums. The h4wt b1tch3s pixx subforum, its purpose utterly unrelated to roleplaying games, would thus act as a cancer on rpg.net.

Just like Tangency Open.

As for Other Games Open, Other Media and so on - those don't detract from roleplaying discussion, but complement it. So when Pirates of the Caribbean 8 comes out, they discuss it in Other Media, then wander off to discuss making it into an rpg session in Roleplaying Open.

It's just a matter of deciding what your website is for. You'd think that rpg.net was about....?

Quote from: ImperatorDude, 300 posts devoted to discussing about another website. This never ceases to amaze me.

I always imagine it as a collection of Russian ex-patriates in turn-of-the-century Paris ... with the lovely little tables on the Champs-Elysee, and the coffee shops that sold both croissants and pierogis.  In that context the endless discussions of what should be done back in the old country are poignant and touching.

Quote from: TonyLBI always imagine it as a collection of Russian ex-patriates in turn-of-the-century Paris ... with the lovely little tables on the Champs-Elysee, and the coffee shops that sold both croissants and pierogis.  In that context the endless discussions of what should be done back in the old country are poignant and touching.

that does give a nice continental flavor to it.

d'oh!  there i go contributing to this exercise.  at least it's finally in OT :rolleyes:

it is somewhat entertaining to read, tho

Quote from: TonyLBI always imagine it as a collection of Russian ex-patriates in turn-of-the-century Paris ... with the lovely little tables on the Champs-Elysee, and the coffee shops that sold both croissants and pierogis.  In that context the endless discussions of what should be done back in the old country are poignant and touching.

Nice image.

Anyway, it gets very tiresome.

Quote from: ImperatorNice image.

Anyway, it gets very tiresome.

then ignore the thread?

Quote from: NYTFLYRthen ignore the thread?

You may have realized that's exactly what I've been doing. Now I've dropped by to state my opinion. So what?

Quote from: ImperatorYou may have realized that's exactly what I've been doing. Now I've dropped by to state my opinion. So what?

and yet here you are...

Yes. So what?

Quote from: ImperatorYes. So what?

thats four posts to a thread you think is tiresome...

Yep. And I feel that they are more useful than whining about some godforsaken messageboard.

Quote from: ImperatorYep. And I feel that they are more useful than whining about some godforsaken messageboard.

so why is it a godforsaken messageboard?

Quote from: PseudoephedrineYou're still talking in cliches and blabbing as if there was a common basis of opinion here. No one else here is sympathetic to those cliches or that blabbing. Make a point, illustrate it with examples and support it with arguments. Don't make up statistics or assume a spurious authority. Take care in phrasing what you say so that you mean what you say. You've just completely undermined your own position by your adherence to shallow ways of thinking.

I'm saying what I mean - the vast majority of people, who I can remember posting on RPG.net, who bitch about the modding there, are full of shit.  In that, their own actions have as much, if not more, to do with why they were banned/sanctioned that any "modclique" or "groupthink" or what have you.

Most internet forums I frequent have far more strict moderation than RPG.net  Any contradiction of mod decree is instantly and permanently banned.  RPG.net will often give you warnings, at least, and other than very extreme circumstances, will give you enough rope to hang yourself with, or untie the noose you've painted yourself into.

In a membership base as large as RPG.net's, there needs to be some element of moderation.  Some control.  Theres a mechanism for voicing dissent with mod decisions, if they are kept tactful and/or respectful.  Even superficially.  I know of few other sites that encourage members to openly criticize or disagree with mod rulings, even to the point of having an entire subfora for the express purpose.  It rings hollow.  I don't doubt there are issues - there almost certainly are.  And legit ones.

But, again, they are relatively few and far between, in my eyes.

Quote from: JimBobOzThe question is not about Tangency Open's popularity, but whether it is good for the roleplaying part of the site. I didn't say that people didn't like Tangency Open. I just said that it had nothing to do with roleplaying, and that its existence and support detracted from roleplaying discussion on rpg.net.

If they started a h4wt b1tch3s pixx subforum, it would undoubtedly be extremely popular; but it would not, I think, really help the forums have more interesting rpg discussions. It would grow to be the single largest subforum, and strain the vbulletin software, leading to occasional forum crashes. Posters' conduct in that subforum would lead to the moderators bringing out new rules and procedures to deal with it all. Cliques would develop. The tone of the subforum, and the stifling nature of the moderators' conduct, would put off many people from posting in other subforums. The h4wt b1tch3s pixx subforum, its purpose utterly unrelated to roleplaying games, would thus act as a cancer on rpg.net.

Just like Tangency Open.

As for Other Games Open, Other Media and so on - those don't detract from roleplaying discussion, but complement it. So when Pirates of the Caribbean 8 comes out, they discuss it in Other Media, then wander off to discuss making it into an rpg session in Roleplaying Open.

It's just a matter of deciding what your website is for. You'd think that rpg.net was about....?

Have you ever been to a website that didn't have an off-topic subforum?

Quote from: HackmastergeneralHave you ever been to a website that didn't have an off-topic subforum?

But one where the off-topic subforum is, effectively, the primary forum?  When the subforum eclipses the main forum, it's time to change your mission statement and your name.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaBut one where the off-topic subforum is, effectively, the primary forum?  When the subforum eclipses the main forum, it's time to change your mission statement and your name.

!i!

How odd.  Most of the time I don't go to Tangency, and pay no attention to it at all.  If I'm reading and posting in the RPG forums, then how does Tangency affect or "overshadow" the forums I am reading?

Quote from: Tom BHow odd.  Most of the time I don't go to Tangency, and pay no attention to it at all.  If I'm reading and posting in the RPG forums, then how does Tangency affect or "overshadow" the forums I am reading?

ooo-kay, now that we're going to start playing dumb to provoke more arguments, and we're going to keep making the same arguments over and over again, this has gotten boring.  time to unsubscribe to this and come back later.  

how soon until this circle-jerk hits 400 posts?  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Tom BMost of the time I don't go to Tangency, and pay no attention to it at all.

Well, hooray for you.  That's clearly not what I was referring to at all, though, is it?  beeber got it right in his post above -- if you're going to play dumb, there's no point in discussing the matter.

!i!

Quote from: NYTFLYRso why is it a godforsaken messageboard?

Because most gamers don't use them. Most RPG gamers don't check the Internet about their hobby - they get the info at their FLGS and just play. So, most gamers are not even aware of the existence of the biggest messageboards out there.

As I said before, I consider a waste of time and effort to g aorund bitchin' about a messageboarad that is irrelevant to your gaming. DOn't like RPG.net policies? Don't go there.

Quote from: ImperatorBecause most gamers don't use them. Most RPG gamers don't check the Internet about their hobby - they get the info at their FLGS and just play. So, most gamers are not even aware of the existence of the biggest messageboards out there.

As I said before, I consider a waste of time and effort to g aorund bitchin' about a messageboarad that is irrelevant to your gaming. DOn't like RPG.net policies? Don't go there.

they why are you wasting your time in this thread? Dont like messages complaining about RPG.net? Don't go there.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWell, hooray for you.  That's clearly not what I was referring to at all, though, is it?  beeber got it right in his post above -- if you're going to play dumb, there's no point in discussing the matter.

!i!

:D:D:D  Oh, that's funny.  You mean there was actually a point?

Seriously, though, what was your point, then?  RPGnet is still one of the most active RPG forums around, regardless of Tangency.  If I'm missing your point, maybe it's not obvious to a 'non-RPGnet basher' like myself...

Quote from: beeberooo-kay, now that we're going to start playing dumb to provoke more arguments, and we're going to keep making the same arguments over and over again, this has gotten boring.  time to unsubscribe to this and come back later.  

how soon until this circle-jerk hits 400 posts?  :rolleyes:

EDIT: Nyah.  No point.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralHave you ever been to a website that didn't have an off-topic subforum?

And yet I've yet to find a single one, even on sites as large or larger than RPGnet, where there was a significant body (or hell even anybody at all), that expressly limited their posting to the off-topic forum, and in some cases didn't even have any interest in the actual on-topic discussion of the rest of the site.  

I have never seen a single board with such a pronounced divide amongst it's userbase.

Tang Open is all about sex.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: JimBobOzCancer is often defined as,

[snippage for brevity]
But of course it won't be. A good number of the mods wouldn't be mods if they'd not been able to establish themselves in "the Tangency community." Nor would most of them know what to talk about if they could only post in the roleplaying subforums.

I know what cancer is. I've lost 2 close family members to it. (not meant to be bitchy....it does sound it though)

And while open has nasty flamewars, I've seen some fugly bits in the game fora too....Think the "cliff's notes" thread mentions 'em. And mods in most places I know are chosen by the other mods/admins rather than volunteer.

Fuck, I just stated an opinion. I like TBP. I have "friends" there, and we talk. And we argue. And sure, I've only met one member (and it's my husband, who's never posted!) but I enjoy talking to 'em. Does the rest really matter??


And why the hell am I a) still discussing this? and b) giving a flying shit over what anyone thinks?:what:
\

QuoteTang Open is all about sex.

What? Is this a bad thing? I quite enjoy sex. And I'm a repressed Catholic, for Pete's sake!

Quote from: NYTFLYRthey why are you wasting your time in this thread?

It's not a waste of time to remind regular posters on therpgsite that they oughtn't waste their time bitching about the flaws of other sites. The point is valid and bears generalization.

There's too much talk about both rpg.net and various Forgesque boards around here. It harms the site because a site does not define its own identity ex negativo.

The storygames admins understood this when they made membership by invitation/application only. Ultimately, following their model might turn out to be worthwhile.

Quote from: shewolfWhat? Is this a bad thing?

No...but I just think an rpg forum should be about rpgs. I don't particularly like the idea of one forum closed of to gamers (or should I say gamers of a certain age) because of unsuitable material...and let's be honest, it's the sex not the religion and politics.

QuoteI quite enjoy sex. And I'm a repressed Catholic,....

Is there any other kind of Catholic...(I'm kidding people :D )

Regards,
David R

Quote from: shewolfI know what cancer is. I've lost 2 close family members to it. (not meant to be bitchy....it does sound it though)

Aha!

"I play the Personal Issues card, now you can only defend with your Guilty Apology For Inadvertent Offence card, there, that's successfully changed the topic from the actual issue to my personal ones. In other words, you are PWNED."

That shit doesn't work here. It's irrelevant.

The point is that Tangency Open detracts from the actual original purpose of rpg.net, which is for people to talk about rpgs. The only roleplaying happening in Tangency Open is bulletproof's play-by-post of "everything bad possible has happened to me."

Quote from: JimBobOzThe point is that Tangency Open detracts from the actual original purpose of rpg.net, which is for people to talk about rpgs.

This keeps being stated as a self-evident truth...yet nobody can explain why.  The purpose of RPGnet is to discuss RPGs.  You can discuss them to your heart's content in a forum second to few others...and yet you say that Tangency detracts from it.  Maybe if you explain using small words, I'll understand why that would be...

Quote from: Tom BThis keeps being stated as a self-evident truth...yet nobody can explain why.  The purpose of RPGnet is to discuss RPGs.  You can discuss them to your heart's content in a forum second to few others...and yet you say that Tangency detracts from it.  Maybe if you explain using small words, I'll understand why that would be...

People have explained why.  Multiple times.  you just don't want to hear them, which is why beeber gave you the response he did.

If you can't be arsed to read what other people have already said in the thread, don't expect them to feel the urge to repeat themselves.

Quote from: Tom BThis keeps being stated as a self-evident truth...yet nobody can explain why.  The purpose of RPGnet is to discuss RPGs.  You can discuss them to your heart's content in a forum second to few others...and yet you say that Tangency detracts from it.  Maybe if you explain using small words, I'll understand why that would be...

1) rule/mod changes becasue of antics in Tangency
2) stupid cliques & pile ons because of what may have been said in Tangency
3) search broke because of the number of threads in Tangency
4) other software/hardware issues becasue of the sheer size of Tangency

Quote from: Tom BThis keeps being stated as a self-evident truth...yet nobody can explain why.

It's self-evident that rpg.net is for discussing rpgs, because that's its title. What else would it be for?
"Pass me the salt."
"Here you go."
"No, that's the salt. I wanted the other salt, that one."
"That's the pepper."
"I know, but I like to call it salt."
"But if you don't call it what everyone else calls it, how do I know what to pass to you?"
"I don't understand what you're saying. Can you explain why you think this?"

RPG.net. Not keetoms.net, or myboringdayatwork.net, or sex.net, but rpg.net. If that's not what it's for anymore, they should rename it.

Quote from: Tom B[...] yet you say that Tangency detracts from it.  Maybe if you explain using small words, I'll understand why that would be...

I already did, here (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=114047&postcount=302) and in many other places. Read the fucking thread. There's no use in my posting something in response to you if you're not going to read it. Fair enough you don't want to go searching for old threads and stuff like the Forgers tell you to do, but your answer's in this very thread. So read it.

1) rule/mod changes becasue of antics in Tangency
2) stupid cliques & pile ons because of what may have been said in Tangency
3) search broke because of the number of threads in Tangency
4) other software/hardware issues becasue of the sheer size of Tangency

I think this is what he meant :D

(Just being a bit cheeky)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: NYTFLYR1) rule/mod changes becasue of antics in Tangency
2) stupid cliques & pile ons because of what may have been said in Tangency
3) search broke because of the number of threads in Tangency
4) other software/hardware issues becasue of the sheer size of Tangency

An actual answer!  Thanks to Nytflyer (and David R).  (See?  That took less typing than the various self-righteous rants offered as alternates...)

The first two I've never noticed in the RPG forum.  Not saying they don't happen...they've just never impacted me in a way that I've noticed.  The last two are certainly valid points...#3 in particular.  #4 is pretty rare.

I certainly admit that the lack of a search function is a hassle.

So...I notice that the off-topic forum on this website is the second most popular, if I remember.  If it keeps growing in popularity, will it be jettisoned?

Quote from: Tom BSo...I notice that the off-topic forum on this website is the second most popular, if I remember.  If it keeps growing in popularity, will it be jettisoned?

I'd hope so. Note however that the highest posting rate in Off Topic is from a few months back, when we had around Dominus Nox, an obnoxious racist whose threads always went flamey. Once he was banned from Off Topic and then marched away from the other subforums in a huff, Off Topic saw a lot less activity, and Rioleplaying was correspondingly more active.

Which is a good thing.

At that time I was challenged to post less in Off Topic if I didn't support it. I've tried to hold to that, with not more than one non-roleplaying post or thread for every ten roleplaying posts or threads I start or make.

Quote from: JimBobOzI'd hope so.

If it is, then to paraphrase Belkar, you can watch my perfectly muscled ass walk out the door. ;)
 
It was only the other day I revisted an old haunt and I realised that many years ago in another life, I'd been lead crusader in a similar battle, but I was on the other side.
 
For me RPGs are a game, not some sort of religious observance. I talk to the other gamers I know about non-game stuff all the time. I dont ignore them in the street, junk their emails or refuse to talk to them outside of the couple of hours we sit around a table every few weeks and pretend we're adventuring heroes in another world.
They may not be close personal friends, but they arent mere acquaintences.
 
I've spent many years in the gaming wilderness with no group and survived on a diet of occasional PBeM or PbPs. I just don't have the geeksperience to add much to the discussions in the RPG Forums, and if Off Topic didnt exist, I'd likely be just another lurker.
 
I'm not saying Tangency is a good thing at big purple, far from it, but as long as Off Topic here doesnt start dictating the tone of the site, I dont think posters should be disparaged for using it.
We're not all ubergamergeeks with a chest full of medals.
 
(I had a slightly more coherent post, but the forum lunched on it)

Quote from: David RTang Open is all about sex.

Regards,
David R

Not all about sex.

I mean, where else would bulletproof be able to indulge her Münchhausen's? It's not like anyone feeds you inspiration for making up an even more shocking personal anecdote than theirs on Livejournal.

Quote from: Christmas ApeNot all about sex.

I mean, where else would bulletproof be able to indulge her Münchhausen's? It's not like anyone feeds you inspiration for making up an even more shocking personal anecdote than theirs on Livejournal.

Should I be taking a look at bulletproof's posts?

Regards,
David R

I don't see why. I can give you the experience.

You tell a thread a story that would make a regular person sad, sick, or angry. Maybe a combination thereof. After about a dozen or so people come in to offer condolences, I show up and tell you about the young person I know who had the same experience or worse. And I do this Every. Single. Story.

My only conclusions are that she lives in Traumastan, or possibly Bullshitopia.

Quote from: Christmas ApeEvery. Single. Story.

Its amazing isnt it? its amazing the amount of "facts" she has as well. case in point would be her expertise concerning Pit Bulls :rolleyes:

she is also a good example of what is wrong with tangency... has she ever stepped foot into any RPG Open Thread?

Quote from: NYTFLYRIts amazing isnt it? its amazing the amount of "facts" she has as well. case in point would be her expertise concerning Pit Bulls :rolleyes:

she is also a good example of what is wrong with tangency... has she ever stepped foot into any RPG Open Thread?

She doesn't play RPGs at all, actually. I know I've seen her post that she in fact has no interest in them.

But, you know, e/n* wankers are notoriously unquestioning and supportive, partly out of fear of angering a Tangency clique and partly out of wanting someone to pity party them when they have a bad day. So you can tell them any utter bullshit and they'll be all, "Awww, that's so sad. Vibes!"

* That's everything/nothing, the posting style of "Herein I bitch about my petty problems as if someone cared", not Eric Noah/ENWorld stuff.

With as much as you hate Tang, JimBob, it's too bad there isn't a way to stop you from being forced to hang out at RPG.net. It must be even worse for the rest of you!

Quote from: Thanatos02With as much as you hate Tang, JimBob, it's too bad there isn't a way to stop you from being forced to hang out at RPG.net. It must be even worse for the rest of you!

Man, are you auditioning for marching band or something? Put the drum down for a bit.

Or, if you're feeling cheeky,

With as much as you hate hearing about rpg.net, it's too bad there isn't a way to stop you from being forced to click on threads about it and read all the way to the end.


Sarcasm is but one useful service I provide.

Quote from: Christmas ApeSarcasm is but one useful service I provide.

Don't use the service that requires a ferret, latex gloves, a fudge sundae, and liberal amounts of vaseline...

Trust me on this one....

Quote from: Christmas ApeMan, are you auditioning for marching band or something? Put the drum down for a bit.

Or, if you're feeling cheeky,

With as much as you hate hearing about rpg.net, it's too bad there isn't a way to stop you from being forced to click on threads about it and read all the way to the end.


Sarcasm is but one useful service I provide.

Pff, come on. For some people, it's an item of value to at least discuss. For JimBob, the point couldn't be any more moot. Motherfucker can't log onto Tang even if he wants to. I'd say the problem is solved for him, wouldn't you?

As for the argument in its totality? I think it's a waste to go after Tang all the time. I don't think it's a big deal. It might stand to be curbed a little, but it's not. My question, in full earnestness is, "Even if it's not what you want, how much is it really infringing on your daily life?"

If it's a whole lot, or even a sizeable amount, I'd seriously consider why that is. But my guess is that it's not really making your life measureably worse.

Quote from: James J SkachDon't use the service that requires a ferret, latex gloves, a fudge sundae, and liberal amounts of vaseline...

Is the sundae for after...?

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiIs the sundae for after...?

You'd think that, wouldn't you?


You'd be a little naive, maybe, but you'd think that.


:eek:

Quote from: SeanchaiIs the sundae for after...?

Seanchai

I'm sorry.  CA has threatened...ahem...advised me that to say too much more would be a breach of trade secrets and "you don't want the ferret again, do you?" was how he put it.

Quote from: Thanatos02Pff, come on. For some people, it's an item of value to at least discuss. For JimBob, the point couldn't be any more moot. Motherfucker can't log onto Tang even if he wants to. I'd say the problem is solved for him, wouldn't you?

No. Because as I said, the dominance of Tangency Open affects the roleplaying discussions, which I can see, as they're public.

For example, if a roleplaying discussion starts up and someone posts obvious bullshit, no-one's allowed to call them on it. Why? Well, because people post stuff which might be bullshit on Tangency, or might not. "I am a child abuse survivor" or whatever. And that sort of thing, if you say you think it's bullshit, obviously it's going to hurt their feelings, and those of their online buddies. So the moderators say, "well, you can't go around telling people they're lying."

So, Ron Edwards says, "I've known over a hundred brain-damaged gamers", normally you'd expect to be able to say, "bullshit!" But because of moderation coming out of Tangency, you can't. So the Tangency moderation affects the roleplaying discussions.

That's just one small example, but there are many others. Just because I can't see Tangency doesn't mean I can't see its effects, which are to stifle a lot - not all, but a lot - of useful rpg discussion.

It's also a distraction for interesting posters. Every post (say) Balbinus makes on Tangency is one less he can make on roleplaying. Which is a waste. When there are so many good posters out there, I want to hear more from them.

Quote from: O'BorgFor me RPGs are a game, not some sort of religious observance. I talk to the other gamers I know about non-game stuff all the time. I dont ignore them in the street, junk their emails or refuse to talk to them outside of the couple of hours we sit around a table every few weeks and pretend we're adventuring heroes in another world.

They may not be close personal friends, but they arent mere acquaintences.

And I'm the same with the people I game with and know in person, too.

But here's the thing - I don't game with you guys. I don't know you. I never met you. You know when shewolf said how lots of those people on Tangency Open, she'd never met them, but they were her friends? I really felt sorry for her then. My heart went out to her. Because you can be friendly with someone who posts around you on a message board, but actual friends? No. Friendship's more intimate than that, much greater. It's like when you look at MySpace or Facebook or LJ or something and see Friends (235). I just think, "you poor lonely bastard."

I think there are quite a few people here or on other boards who if we met, we'd get along fine, and with time could be friends. People who seem to be intelligent, interesting, and have ideas different enough to mine to keep discussions going. People who seem to be decent and humane and quite likeable.

But I don't mistake a few posts in a few threads here and there across message boards for friendship, or for "more than acquaintance."

I think really this is a fundamental question for any message board. Do you want to be a "community", or do you want to talk about Topic X. Really you have to put one of those first. rpg.net's put the "community" part first, which is why it has all those posters in Tangency who have no interest in roleplaying.

Hey, man, whatever.

That's profound. Like totally dude.

Quote from: JimBobOzThat's profound. Like totally dude.

I'm not trying to be profound, or deep, or anything. I had a couple of options available to me, but for someone who seriously feels bad that people had friends on the internet, you're really fucking invested in a forum you can't even look at.

So, what am I supposed to think about that? Not too much, really, I decided. Did you expect for me to write a huge refutation or something? I'm not the one bent out of shape by it.

Quote from: J ArcaneAnd yet I've yet to find a single one, even on sites as large or larger than RPGnet, where there was a significant body (or hell even anybody at all), that expressly limited their posting to the off-topic forum, and in some cases didn't even have any interest in the actual on-topic discussion of the rest of the site.  

I have never seen a single board with such a pronounced divide amongst it's userbase.

There are also few websites who have been around, in one form or another, for as long as RPG.net has.  People have been there for YEARS - so, its only natural they form friendships, relationships, internal reference points and memes.  Its huge because its GROWN to be that.  Over many many years.  

Its still a site about RPGs, primarily.  Tang is huge, yes, but notice they don't have a Tangency Wiki going - or an official Tangency Index - or Tangency Reviews.  Its still focused on RPGs.  Shooting the shit and bitching about politics is a popular pasttime.

Quote from: JimBobOzNo. Because as I said, the dominance of Tangency Open affects the roleplaying discussions, which I can see, as they're public.

For example, if a roleplaying discussion starts up and someone posts obvious bullshit, no-one's allowed to call them on it. Why? Well, because people post stuff which might be bullshit on Tangency, or might not. "I am a child abuse survivor" or whatever. And that sort of thing, if you say you think it's bullshit, obviously it's going to hurt their feelings, and those of their online buddies. So the moderators say, "well, you can't go around telling people they're lying."

Umm...no?  You can call them on their bullshit - you just can't insult them while you do it.

QuoteSo, Ron Edwards says, "I've known over a hundred brain-damaged gamers", normally you'd expect to be able to say, "bullshit!" But because of moderation coming out of Tangency, you can't. So the Tangency moderation affects the roleplaying discussions.

Thats one of the most patently ridiculous things I've heard in a while...

QuoteIt's also a distraction for interesting posters. Every post (say) Balbinus makes on Tangency is one less he can make on roleplaying. Which is a waste. When there are so many good posters out there, I want to hear more from them.

So if he has nothing particular to say at the time but, say, has a bit to say on a certain political topic, he should just shut the fuck up?  People CHOOSE what to post about.  This is the one thing you can't get through your thick skull - its not one less post he can make on RPing - he's CHOOSING not to.  Or has nothing particularily worthwhile to say about RPing at that moment.

You want to take choice away from people, because you have a beef with Tang.

QuoteBut here's the thing - I don't game with you guys. I don't know you. I never met you. You know when shewolf said how lots of those people on Tangency Open, she'd never met them, but they were her friends? I really felt sorry for her then. My heart went out to her. Because you can be friendly with someone who posts around you on a message board, but actual friends? No. Friendship's more intimate than that, much greater. It's like when you look at MySpace or Facebook or LJ or something and see Friends (235). I just think, "you poor lonely bastard."

Bullshit.  You most certainly can.  Just because YOU don't, that doesn't mean its not worthy, or valid, for others.  Drop the sneering fucking condesencion.
Met my wife online, and the vast majority of her friends are online friends. That she talks to on various message boards, LJ, etc.  A whole bunch of them came to our wedding, and they are her best friends.  So fuck you.  You can't get friendly with people online, fine.  But don't sit on your high horse and sneer at people who DO make friends online, because you can't.

QuoteI think there are quite a few people here or on other boards who if we met, we'd get along fine, and with time could be friends. People who seem to be intelligent, interesting, and have ideas different enough to mine to keep discussions going. People who seem to be decent and humane and quite likeable.

But I don't mistake a few posts in a few threads here and there across message boards for friendship, or for "more than acquaintance."

I think really this is a fundamental question for any message board. Do you want to be a "community", or do you want to talk about Topic X. Really you have to put one of those first. rpg.net's put the "community" part first, which is why it has all those posters in Tangency who have no interest in roleplaying.

Whatever man.  You'd think a few years after someone got banned from a site, they'd fucking move on and let it go.  But man alive, that chip on your shoulder must be playing almighty FUCK with your posture.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral....... and bitching about politics is a popular pasttime.

 Its also an extremely pointless and boring thing to post about - to a gaming forum.
It Would make more sense for all those who are supposedly interested in politics ...to get up, walk away from their computers...then go outside of their houses and help the local political party or cauise that interests them.

- Ed C.

Hackmastergeneral, I don't doubt that you've established excellent relationships with people you met online. I have, too. But the online medium was just the way you met them; the actual development of the relationship required meeting in person. The online medium can be deceptive; there are people I know in person whom I like, but when I see their posts online they interest me not at all. And others I've been insulted by online, liked me well enough in person to have a beer with me.

I don't propose restricting people's choices about what and where to post. I'm simply suggesting that forums should have a focus. I wouldn't yabber on about gaming on a dating website, or about cooking on a political website, and I really shouldn't talk about politics on an rpg site. Or if I do, I should try to minimise it, and remember the main purpose of the place. And if in fact I've no actual interest in the topic of the place, I should stay out of it, and not waste people's time.

While you're praising the glories of rpg.net, it's worth remembering that were you to post anything like you just did over there, you'd be banned, probably permanently. That demonstrates what I'm saying. therpgsite has greater freedoms because of its greater focus; rpg.net has less freedom because it's less focused. So you have freedom in what you're speaking about (rpg.net), or you can have freedom in how you're saying it (therpgsite). You can be restricted in both what you say, and how you say it (SJGames), but it's unusual to be free in both. It's not a law of nature or anything, it's just the way forums tend to evolve.

I know you think you can talk about anything you like here, but I think we can be pretty sure that if Off Topic ever became a Tangency Open, RPGPundit would ditch it entirely. So the freedom of topic's there, but it's not unlimited. On the other hand, the freedom of tone is unlimited, pretty much.

Enjoy what you've got here. You get to abuse me and whoever you like. You may say that you don't consider that a good feature of the place, in which case I suggest you stop abusing us :p

I'm just surprised that more folks don't post here just to abuse you JimBob :D

Come to abuse JimBob
Stay for the game talk

Regards,
David R

We've even got a thread for that (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3606&), David R. So far, people only posted to say "I'm not posting in this thread about you being a prick, because you are a prick."

Bring it on, Hack Boy. I've been insulted by people with even worst taste in rpgs than you! :p

I thank my ancestors my taste in rpgs is Patrician. Now you run along, play your historical games and pretend to be me :snooty:

Regards,
David R

Jim

No, it doesn't.  It really really doesn't.  Anything deep - like online relationships - totally online dating - sure, eventually you need to meet.  But friendship?  It really doesn't.  You can be very good friends with someone only from online.  I know - my wife is very good friends with some.  

Now, friends just from posting to an RPG website?  Sure - but once you get into LJ + other online territory, its very easy to become friends with someone you've never met.  

I mostly take exception to your "pathetic losers" slant in your post.  

And no, what I posted there wouldn't get me banned - It'd get me WARNED.  Big difference.  Cause I don't make a habit of making myself a nuisance over there - so, consequently, they're likely to cut me some slack on the first offense.  Plus, given how much shit-stirring you've done over there, the fact I cursed you out would likely mitigate the crime a bit.  Plus, I get warned I say "cool, sorry, won't happen again" - cause its MEANINGLESS, unlike others who get a bit of red text and get all frothing at the mouth and angry and shit.

I do enjoy it here - more than I thought I would.  The two sites are different, thus they feed different desires.  I still enjoy reading and posting there - though I seem to be slipping into more of a "lurker" a lot, as I read, go to post and say "nahhh...its not worth refuting this jackass".  The current Global Warming thread there is a perfect case point example.  Far more intelligent and science-y guys than I are refuting the hell out of a climate change denier, so theres no point in me doing so.  I'm learning a lot reading it, though, so I keep reading.

Oh Gawd!! He mentioned Global Warmming.
 Boring : round 47


- Ed C.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralThere are also few websites who have been around, in one form or another, for as long as RPG.net has.  People have been there for YEARS - so, its only natural they form friendships, relationships, internal reference points and memes.  Its huge because its GROWN to be that.  Over many many years.  

Its still a site about RPGs, primarily.  Tang is huge, yes, but notice they don't have a Tangency Wiki going - or an official Tangency Index - or Tangency Reviews.  Its still focused on RPGs.  Shooting the shit and bitching about politics is a popular pasttime.

Umm, dude?

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Forum_Archive:Main_Page

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Gatherings

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Tangency_Timeline

I'm the one who set up that first one.  

And you didn't address my assertion either.  I'm not talking about people who've been around for a while and know each other.  I'm talking about people who are only there for Tangency, and have no interest in the RPG side of the boards.

OK - what the fuck difference does it make?

Seriously - what difference does it make to the web site?  If someone joined because they like the discussion and community that exists (and don't anyone give me that shit about "its not a community, its a website forum - all groups of people who interact for any length of time form an informal community of some kind.  Its inevitable, and not something you can really stop.  Hell, this place is forming a "community" - even if some people here want to deny it and actively try to argue against it, its happening.  Social interactions form communities - they don't have to be formalized, or anything.  But each group of people who interact over time form their own way of internally communicating, and the group takes on social structures), what difference does it make?

Those people are in the minority, and some of them may find their way to RPGs.

Should we root out the non-rpg-ers, and purge them?  What about people who joined to talk abotu video games, or for Other Media?  

This whole thing is ridiculous.  I agree with some things - the sheer size and volume of Tang does drain system resources, and it impedes Search.  

Getting rid of Tangency is just too extreme a measure.  Cause then you get forum bleed - and discussion of politics and movies and video games creep into other discussions.  If you blow out Tang and start a new "off-topic discussion" section, it'll just happen again.

Geting rid of Tangency - would be a good excuse for a party.

 Or maybe if they did the SJG  way of things and purged/deleted ANY tangency postings and threads that are older than 30 days.

 Maybe then they could use the actual vbulletin search function.
 (which works like its supposed on THIS games forum. Thanks Jeff & Pundy!!)


- Ed C.

QuoteOK - what the fuck difference does it make?

I point it out because it's indicative of the split between the two halves of the site.  The really isn't a unified community on RPGnet.  There's two, with occasional crossover.  There are a lot of posters there who only post to one side or the other, because the built up cliqueishness of both RPG Open and Tangency.

I don't think it's a matter of size, or age.  EvilAvatar is as large and as old as RPGnet, yet no such split occurs on the site at all.  The off-topic area is just another part of the site, and the primary orientation of the site as being about video games and comics remains the driving motive of everyone's presence there.

I didn't post much at all on RPG Open when I was there, because by and large I found it worthless.  I knew a lot of fellow Tangency posters whose posting habits were similar.  

I don't think there really is any easy solution to the subject.  Perhaps some reorientation on the part of the moderatorship to focus more on the importance of RPG discussion over other topics.  Some kind of low tolerance policy towards off-topic flameyness, much like has been demonstrated on this site regarding Dominus Nox perhaps.  I don't know, I have no solution.

I simply think it's silly to deny that the split is there when it's quite apparent to everyone involved.

I don't deny theres a split.  There sure is.  Tang is a really different entity.  I just don't think it makes anywhere near as big a deal as you and JimBob do.

Theres PLENTY of talk about RPGs, and its clear the focus is on that.  The site has grown to include a lot more, though, and I don't see it as a bad thing.  I think altering the structure of Tang, or making some changes that allow the smoother running of the site, are fine.

I just don't see it as a big deal, with how the present moderation is going.  I see few flameouts, few massively huge arguements, and Tang stuff pretty much stays in Tang.

How many people here held Nox's off-topic comments against him in RPG discussions?  It happens - it had an effect on how this site was run for a while.  Its hypocritical to say "Tang arguements bleed over into other sections" when the same thing happens on EVERY forum, and it can happen outside of Tang.  You don't need tang for that - lots of SPECTACULAR flamewars in RP Open, which led to other arguements cross subfora.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralHow many people here held Nox's off-topic comments against him in RPG discussions?  It happens - it had an effect on how this site was run for a while.  Its hypocritical to say "Tang arguements bleed over into other sections" when the same thing happens on EVERY forum, and it can happen outside of Tang.  You don't need tang for that - lots of SPECTACULAR flamewars in RP Open, which led to other arguements cross subfora.

Not exactly. Although there were a few snide comments normally brought on by Nox* himself most folks were more then happy to accept him when it came to RPG talk. Also you got to remember that Nox was not banned from the RPG forums only OT. In fact I would say the informal rule of calling out folks on their bullshit has the effect of cutting down on cross fora or rather cross thread hostility.

Besides the whole "war" what happens in one particular thread normally stays there. The OT forum on this site does not get much traffic ( I think) and when it does and it gets flamey issues remain in that forum. This may be because this is a smaller site.

Most posters at the tBP either don't care about the modding policy or that it works for them. That's the bottom line.

*Take what I say about Nox with a pinch of salt. To my knowledge besides JimBob I was the only other poster calling for his bannation.

Regards,
David R

I never called for a ban of him...but it would not have bothered me if it had happened .
Either way I like this forum better than the Big Purple & pink.

- Ed C.

Quote from: David RIn fact I would say the informal rule of calling out folks on their bullshit has the effect of cutting down on cross fora or rather cross thread hostility.

Besides the whole "war" what happens in one particular thread normally stays there.

There tends to be some overlap between threads, I think - "but you said X in this thread, how can you say Y now?" But it's true that stuff tends to stay in one subforum. The only one really who stands out as not respecting subforum topic divisions is RPGPundit. He sometimes confuses the rpg subforum with his own one. I imagine he just wants to make sure people read his threads. rpg theory stuff will also tend to stay in the rpg forum, rather than zapping off to Game Design like it should.

But most of the other posters respect the topic divisions. And as David R says, it's quite possible for us to call for someone's banning in Off Topic but then happily discuss gaming with them in the rpg section. ;)

OK then - why should RPG.net be any different?  If its possible for you all to get along hunky-dorey with Nox despite your loathing of his politics/views, why should the same not happen at RPG.net?

It does.  In that case, its individual posters who bring beefs with them cross-fora.  I had no problem discussing games with Pseudo - though I never liked his posts on Tang.

So using "flames from Tang spread cross-fora" is kinda false, as far as judging Tang goes.  People who hold beefs from Tang to RPO are the same people who are gonna hold beefs from VGO to RPO - its not a function of the board, its individual posters.

It's the moderation.

Here, people who are offended by someone's comments are expected to deal with it themselves - ignoring, ignore list, argument, abuse, whatever. On rpg.net, people who are offended hit the report button. That actually encourages people to feel offended, because rather than thinking, "how can I deal with this problem?" they think, "does this offend me enough to click that button?" Over time, the threshold for "enough" drops, so that we have people reporting someone for saying their favourite rpg is no good.

I once received a warning for making a joke about d20 players using 1337speak all the time, I forget the details but it was something in the spirit of "they all like ZOMFG k3w1 pw0rz!" This was considered a "group attack against d20 players."

So the moderation encourages posters to take things personally, to have issues.

I do think that while rpg.net suffers from an excess of proscriptive moderation (banning some kinds of talk) and a deficit of prescriptive moderation  (encouraging some kinds of talk), therpgsite suffers from a lack of proscriptive moderation - though it has no corresponding excess of prescriptive. So therpgsite needs to change, be more proscriptive, to be a truly successful site (as successful as it is, it could be more so). But rpg.net needs to change, too.

By "success" I mean, "well-known for interesting and fun talk about rpgs." rpg.net's excessively proscriptive moderation stifles interesting and fun talk, and leads to the "you should use Wushu!" sorts of rubbish. therpgsite's lack of proscription leads to it being thought of as a pit of vipers, and utterly male-dominated (if RPGPundit were a woman, it would probably be female-dominated - this comes from the top).

But whatever the theory, the fact is that at rpg.net, people will put you on their Ignore Lists and lobby to have you banned for your non-rpg posts. So for example Nick the Lemming saw some post of mine and said I was a "right-wing fucktard" (I've rarely been called right-wing before); as a result, he saw none of my rpg posts for the next three years. I'm sure he might have been interested in some of them.

Quote from: JimBobOzThe only one really who stands out as not respecting subforum topic divisions is RPGPundit. He sometimes confuses the rpg subforum with his own one.

You know that just because I have a particular forum of my own, it doesn't mean I can't post to the other forums.  I mean, that would be very clever, to interpret any post I made outside of my forum as being "off topic"; but that's just not the case.  And last I checked, I wasn't posting about politics in the RPG forum, or about RPGs over in Off-topic, so I don't see what the fuck you're talking about.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd last I checked, I wasn't posting about politics in the RPG forum, or about RPGs over in Off-topic, so I don't see what the fuck you're talking about.

No, but you do post about Swine everywhere, which really is about as mainstream an rpg theory as GNS, and so actually belongs in your own subforum. You've also a tendency to take anti-rpg.net rants into the roleplaying subforum, and also some game design theory sort of stuff there.

It's not me who says you shouldn't post at all, you're confusing me with McMurray, jdrakeh, or J_Arcane.

Hmmm, all those Jims are confusing and embarassing to me, I might see if I can get my screen nick changed to Kyle Aaron....

Quote from: JimBobOzIt's not me who says you shouldn't post at all, you're confusing me with McMurray, jdrakeh, or J_Arcane.

I never said that Pundit shouldn't post at all, only that he ought to dial back both the intentional seeding of every forum with anti-swine rhetoric and the accompanying squeal that he not be held to the same standards as those he's attacking because of some imagined moral superiority. Outside of those wailing screeds of madness, Pundit has some good things to say -- lately, though, the wailing screeds account for roughly 95% of his screen time.

Oh okay, I misunderstood. You've a fair point there.

The guy is running five games or something. Surely he has some actual roleplaying material to discuss, instead of this abstract nonsense. RPGPundit, please spend more time demonstrating how awesome your gaming is, rather than simply stating it, or railing at the crapness of someone else's gaming. I mean, I have no doubt that Uncle Ronny, Darren MacLennan and so on have crap gaming, if any. But I'd rather hear about your awesome gaming.

Maybe we should retitle the thread "more rpg.net and more therpgsite frustrations." :D

Quote from: JimBobOzThe guy is running five games or something. Surely he has some actual roleplaying material to discuss. . .

Excellent point! I'd really like to hear about those games in more detail (I was just thinking about this earlier today, actually). All I really know is that they exist, as Pundit rarely (if ever) dicusses them in specific terms. I mean, I see a lot of "I'm running five games!" but very little "Let me tell you about the five games that I'm running. . ." and the curiosity is driving me nuts.

Quote from: jdrakehExcellent point! I'd really like to hear about those games in more detail (I was just thinking about this earlier today, actually). All I really know is that they exist, as Pundit rarely (if ever) dicusses them in specific terms. I mean, I see a lot of "I'm running five games!" but very little "Let me tell you about the five games that I'm running. . ." and the curiosity is driving me nuts.

If you were to check out my blog you'd see my regular posts on my LSH campaign. Over in the Actual Play forum I talk about Pendragon, and I've posted regularly about Qin, Rome, and Warhammer.

RPGPundit