QuoteThe Matrícula Consular ("Consular Registration") is an identification card issued by the Government of Mexico through its consulate offices. The official purpose of the card is to demonstrate that the bearer is a Mexican national living outside of Mexico. Similar consulate identification cards are issued to citizens of Argentina, Colombia, El Salvador, and Honduras [1].
In the United States, several states, municipalities, and businesses have started accepting the Matrícula Consular as an official form of identification. This practice is controversial, and is often opposed by critics of illegal immigration. These critics often state that a passport suffices as proper identification for anyone temporarily in the country.
A Mexican national legally residing in the United States would already have a valid Mexican passport and a Valid U.S. Visa, or a U.S.-issued "Green Card" (I-551 form), and therefore, the "Matricula Consular" card would not be necessary.
U.S. law enforcement officials also cite that "Matricula Consular" cards are issued by Mexican Consulate without checking the authenticity of the applicant's supporting documentation. Mexican nationals often provide a birth certificate to Mexican Consulates in order to obtain the "Matricula Consular" card. Mexican birth certificates are easily forged and can be purchased on the black market for a few dollars. In fact, anti-illegal immigration activist D.A. King, a U.S. citizen, has obtained three Matrículas with his picture, and has widely publicized one of them across the internet to illustrate the problems he sees with the document. The card in question bears the name "Al Qaida Gonzalez."[1] Bruce DeCell, a retired New York City police officer who lost a son-in-law in 9/11, obtained a forged Matrícula with his name, and successfully used it as identification to enter the headquarters of the Department of Homeland Security. DeCell's card, which he obtained from a street vendor in California, gives his address as "123 Fraud Blvd." in "Staton Island", New York, and his birthplace as "Tijiuna", B.C.[2]
U.S. Federal and local drug enforcement agents have discovered that numerous illegal alien, Mexican national narcotics traffickers obtain "Matricula Consular" cards under the names of aliases and that their use in the United States presents the U.S. with a serious criminal threat.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matricula_Consular
Posted for discussion. I don't know much about it, and would like to hear what others may think or know. Apparently it's an "official" ID issued by the Mexican government to its citizens living abroad that many illegals may be using to obtain goods and services.
I don't care a bit what Mexico thinks is good identification. If you're in the U.S., have a U.S. document or passport.
Any mexican with one of these and no other ID should be sent back to mexico istantly, and forced to pay the expenses.
No money? Then you work on the wall between the US and mexico, chain gang style, until you've paid the cost.
We were told by an OLCC representative at my former employer not to recognize them as valid ID, because they're so easily bought fraudulently down there.
I don't have a problem with the idea per se, because I'm not Mr. Xenophobe about immigration issues, but I do have a problem with it if the security is too poor to consider the thing worth the paper it's printed on.
One way to get Mexico to clean that program up is to send them a bill for services rendered to each person using the card as identification, but we would rather build a giant fucking wall than actually try and fix the problem.
Quote from: RockViperOne way to get Mexico to clean that program up is to send them a bill for services rendered to each person using the card as identification, but we would rather build a giant fucking wall than actually try and fix the problem.
Close - our solution is to say, amid great fanfare and signaturing, that we're commiting $X billion to build a fence, and then not do it and hope nobody notices.
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
If you experience any problems with your Statue of Liberty (or any product from the 'Revolutionary Fervour' line of goods) please call this number.
1-800-NOMEXICONO.
Quoting Socialist poetry carries little water with me, sorry. The people who came during that wave of immigration followed the law and were made citizens of this country. They WANTED to become citizens of this country. That's why they came here. They didn't just pile into cars and drive across the border with no intention of becoming Americans, no intention of obeying the laws of this land (starting with being here illegally), and then complaining that they were being discriminated against. They worked hard to build businesses and lives here, instead of sending so much money back to their homeland (note - not the US, but their homeland) that it became a major source of the GNP of said homeland.
Here's a little taste of the future.
http://www.laweekly.com/general/features/the-town-the-law-forgot/15731/
Its not exactly Germantown, or Irishtown, or Little Italy, now is it? More like Gangs of New York - and I'd think we all agree that's not a good thing.
Legal immigrants will find no quarrel with me, but the ILLEGAL (that word still has meaning, right?) aliens - I have no sympathy for them, not one scrap. And for the record, that goes for any of them, not just the ones with brown skin. There happens to be orders of magnitude more of them than any others.
What he said.
Quote from: WerekoalaQuoting Socialist poetry carries little water with me, sorry. The people who came during that wave of immigration followed the law and were made citizens of this country. They WANTED to become citizens of this country. That's why they came here. They didn't just pile into cars and drive across the border with no intention of becoming Americans, no intention of obeying the laws of this land (starting with being here illegally), and then complaining that they were being discriminated against. They worked hard to build businesses and lives here, instead of sending so much money back to their homeland (note - not the US, but their homeland) that it became a major source of the GNP of said homeland.
Here's a little taste of the future.
http://www.laweekly.com/general/features/the-town-the-law-forgot/15731/
Its not exactly Germantown, or Irishtown, or Little Italy, now is it? More like Gangs of New York - and I'd think we all agree that's not a good thing.
Legal immigrants will find no quarrel with me, but the ILLEGAL (that word still has meaning, right?) aliens - I have no sympathy for them, not one scrap. And for the record, that goes for any of them, not just the ones with brown skin. There happens to be orders of magnitude more of them than any others.
100% right. :win:
Umm, dude, the feelings about Mexican-americans today, legal or illegal (the whole argument is just a kind of veiled excuse, from what I see) is virtually identical to the feelings there used to be about the Italians, and the Irish before them, and the Germans before those...
And with the same kind of justifications; waves of immigration ALWAYS bring growing pains, local gangs, conflicts, poverty, fear of lost jobs, etc etc. Some of those concerns are even legitimate, but they are also all issues that resolve themselves within a generation or so, as the kids of immigrants end up feeling more "american" than "x", and economic opportunities and cultural opportunities for integration develop for the new group. Not to mention that some other massive wave of immigration happens, and the last bunch suddenly feel like the "familiar guys", who are right there along with you bitching these new foreigners coming to "steal our jobs" and "raise crime".
That's part of the American identity for you. Just remember that its this cultural adaptability that has made America the incredible success that it is. Some of the proposals floating around right now, like not automatically granting birth-right citizenship to children of non-citizens born inside US territory, could instead lead to the creation of a permanent underclass that would never be allowed to integrate. That would be really disastrous.
RPGPundit
Man, I could not possibly agree more with what you just said Pundit. Literally, that's exactly how I feel about immigration issues, and well stated to boot.
Quote from: RPGPunditUmm, dude, the feelings about Mexican-americans today, legal or illegal (the whole argument is just a kind of veiled excuse, from what I see) is virtually identical to the feelings there used to be about the Italians, and the Irish before them, and the Germans before those...
And with the same kind of justifications; waves of immigration ALWAYS bring growing pains, local gangs, conflicts, poverty, fear of lost jobs, etc etc. Some of those concerns are even legitimate, but they are also all issues that resolve themselves within a generation or so, as the kids of immigrants end up feeling more "american" than "x", and economic opportunities and cultural opportunities for integration develop for the new group. Not to mention that some other massive wave of immigration happens, and the last bunch suddenly feel like the "familiar guys", who are right there along with you bitching these new foreigners coming to "steal our jobs" and "raise crime".
That's part of the American identity for you. Just remember that its this cultural adaptability that has made America the incredible success that it is. Some of the proposals floating around right now, like not automatically granting birth-right citizenship to children of non-citizens born inside US territory, could instead lead to the creation of a permanent underclass that would never be allowed to integrate. That would be really disastrous.
RPGPundit
Ahhh, this is more like it, a typical pile of ignorant bullshit that I'm used to from pundit. Good, reading posts where he was right about things was giving me near heart attacks from shock, and having to agree with him filled me with self loathing, but now things are back on track.
There are some major, and I mean *M*A*J*O*R* differences between italian, german, irish, etc immigrants and the swarms of invaders scuttling into america from messico.
First, the european migrants came here LEGALLY, and were screened, tested, followed the rules on getting here, etc. Ones with criminal records, contagious diseases, etc, were turned away. The invaders coming up from messico do so ilegally and are therefore not screened for criminal records, diseases like resistant TB, etc.
Also, the european immigrants mostly came here to become americans. They learned english, they adapted to america. The invaders coming in from messico don't want to be bothered to learn english, they expect america to become a bilingual country for their convenience and want to bring their culture up here, imposing it on those of us who are here already.
There are major differences between the european imigrants and the messican invaders, up to and including the fact that messico is openly practicing what it calls "La reconquista" of texas and claifornia by sending swarms of illegal invaders up here to essentially recolonize those areas and turn them into messican terriroty be default.
European immigrants came to america legally to become americans. The messican invaders are coming here ilegally to impose their culture, language and values on america, and that's why they're not immigrants, theyre invaders.
Dude, at most points in the U.S. history, the conditions for acquiring citizenship were ridiculously lax. Assuming you didn't have the plague, you were in. They were desperate for people, any people, by the boatload (literally).
Also, just about every dumbass thing you just said, was said about the Italians, and the Irish before them.
"The Irish will do for a nickel what a negro would do for a dime, and what a real american used to get a quarter to do".
The accusations of "they don't want to learn our language", they don't want to adopt our culture, etc etc. were all constant accusations against the italians, germans, poles, and Irish. Ditto with "they won't adopt our culture": "The Irish will vote for who the Archbishop tells them to vote for... and who tells the Archbishop? That king with the pointy hat what sits on his throne in Rome..".
America has always been the place of shelter and new opportunities for immigrants, and for just as long it has been the place of the so-called "natives" expressing paranoia and fear over the new wave of "foreigners" coming to "their" land.
RPGPundit
QuoteAmerica has always been the place of shelter and new opportunities for immigrants, and for just as long it has been the place of the so-called "natives" expressing paranoia and fear over the new wave of "foreigners" coming to "their" land.
I also find a certain sort of hypocrisy in it, given that unless you're Native American, it never was "your land", and you're just as much of an immigrant as the rest of us, there's just a variable number of generations since whenever your particular family first landed..
It's true that the american indians (I do not and will never call them "native americans) let a bunch of immigrants into their country, and look what happened to them.
BTW, I find it amusing that a guy who was born, or pehraps I should say let, in canada and moved to uraguay presumes to act as if he knows what americans think, feel and believe.
This stuff will sort itself out ...sooner or later.
Amongst my group of players is someone who just became an American citizen in 2004. She has been living here for close to 25 years. She used the rules and regular process to become a citizen - I could understand if she was annoyed that somebody else got a shortcut.
What Punidit said... I am shocked that in general I agree with him.
Pundit - I thought you'd piss me off more often.
Something strange must be going on.
- E.W.C.
I can neither agree or disagree with what the pundit said. On the one hand he completely missed many of the points being made and just stuck his boot in, as he does. I could have predicted his response almost to the letter.
On the other hand, he makes a good point. Some of the 'anti-immigration' proposals being tossed out there are worse than the problem if illegal immigrants.
I recall a case a month or so ago where a pregnant woman on a plane ride across the border gave birth. Cue fighting over which airspace she was over when she gave birth. Cue fighting over whether or not it matters that she may have been trying to deliberately give birth in the US so that her child was a US citizen.
To me this couldn't have been clearer. The tradition that any baby born in the US is automatically a US citizen is important. Fuck, it's inviolable. It doesn't matter the intent. Sure, it's maybe a bit sleazy, but so is trying to argue against it because you don't like it. It's writing in an exception to support a bigoted attitude.
I have no problem with immigrants, from any nation. Well over half the people I've worked with in my adult life have been immigrants or second generation immigrants. Two or three nights a week I walk down to the local gas station for munchies, the guy behind the counter is from Ethopia, his bosses are Egyptians. Meanwhile my housemate refuses to get a job because it's beneath her to work for minimum wage in the service industry... where everyone starts. That is the beauty of America, if you are willing to work, you can and will succeed. You CAN get rich, like my Economics professor who turned 17 dollars into a 17 million dollar construction company and retired to teach.
Illegal Immigrants, however, are a problem. They are a systemic problem, and a social problem. Systemic because our system, our government, is not set up... and should not BE set up to accomodate non-citizens. If the beaurocratic machinery was less encompassing, it might not be an issue. However, as it stands Illegal immigrants only consume resources, they do not contribute. This is of course, speaking of purely taxation. Illegal immigrants are increasingly draining the educational and health infrastructure. The money they are paid is not taxed, and is often not spent in the US. The analogy is to say our economy is like a bucket full of water, the illegal immigrants are leaks. Not the only leaks, certainly, but they are ones we can, and should plug.
More, while I am no fan of minimum wages, illegal immigrants can and do work for less than legally required. Why even consider hiring a legal immigrant, much less a citizen, to do a job when you can pay an illegal half of that? This causes a serious erosion of the job market, typically where it is needed most. If there are twenty million illegal immigrants working in the US there are twenty million potential citizens and legal immigrants who can not find work. In the case of the legal immigrants, its worse: Without access to those jobs it is actually HARDER for them to get their visas, to enter the system as legal immigrants, in the first place.
Social problems: Where to start? Y'know... I don't even want to touch this one, as I've gone on long enough. I could talk about the rise of El Salvadoran gangs, the split families, the people dying in cargo containers and box trucks... Lets just admit that its at least as complex as the systemic issue and leave it at that.
What Spike said, at least up to the minimum wage part.
Quote from: James McMurrayWhat Spike said, at least up to the minimum wage part.
Well, I did establish that it was MY opinion re:minimum wage. You do have to agree that workers that come in, don't need taxes, don't need health insurance, and get half the paycheck DO erode the ability of tax paying citizens to actually get jobs...
Or was that the point of contention?
Nah, it was just the dislike of minimum wages I didn't want to agree with. I think they're a good idea, but agree that illegal immigrants invalidate them by ignoring them.
The last couple of posts make excellent points. Illegals do hurt americans by lowering minimum wage. The US department of labor estimates that illega labor actually lowers the average take home pay of the lowest economic tier in america by about 8%, by working for less than minimum wage giving employers the ability to have sub minimum wage labor, which lets them take money out of the working poor's pockets and put it in their own.
Personally I hate illegals and the people who employ them to make themselves richer at the expense of working americans, and if every ilegal worker in america and their employers all dropped dead tomorrow, I'd cheer.
Big business loves illegals, and their government lets them come in and say in so as to rob the american worker.
BTW, here's a pic off the web to illo the point:
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d25/tanhauser/boosh.jpg)