Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 02, 2024, 08:59:58 PM

Quote from: Zalman on November 01, 2024, 06:49:12 AMLoved the book, loved the movie, and never cared that they tell different stories with the same title.

It completely baffles me that anyone thinks Paul Verhoeven is trying to say anything one way or another about fascism in this movie. Verhoeven makes movies about the psychology of sex and violence, which is exactly what this movie is about as well. Not politics.

Maybe so, but I can't help but notice all the politics in the movie.

When the movie originally aired, it was dismissed by critics as jingoistic garbage. Now you have youtube videos analyzing all the "hints" that the bugs are a persecuted minority.

It's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.

You want fiction that treats orcs and goblins as a persecuted minority and doesn't suck? Read Drifters by Kota Hirano.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.

I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.

Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.

I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.

Exactly! The movie's antiwar message was tainted by the director's leftist politics, and now the movie would work as a "satire" of leftism.

The cgi cartoon is much better at pushing an antiwar message. The war against the bugs is depicted as appropriately unpleasant. The team isn't fighting because war is good, they're fighting because the bugs don't give them a choice. It's not glamorized. One episode has them giving goodbye messages to their families in case they die.

In general I find the whole prowar/antiwar schism nonsensical. What isn't antiwar? What is prowar? I can't think of any story that is actually pro-war unless the protagonist is a conqueror who accrues a harem. What are you supposed to do when an enemy attacks you and refuses to stop after attempting diplomacy? Roll over?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMNow you have youtube videos analyzing all the "hints" that the bugs are a persecuted minority.

Theres a whole subculture of this that run around proclaiming this or that villain was really right all along! Or this or that evil race was just misunterstood and persecuted!

Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.

I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.

As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."

The world of Dustborn sounds worse. It promotes using outright mind control to enslave people who disagree with you.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 05, 2024, 11:15:59 AM

Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.

I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.

As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."

Yeah, it's not really "propaganda" if the enemy really is trying to suck the brains out of every living human. That's why I never got the "brainwashing" vibe from the movie. More like "necessary mindset to survive".

Quote from: Zalman on November 05, 2024, 01:26:35 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 05, 2024, 11:15:59 AM

Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.

I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.

As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."

Yeah, it's not really "propaganda" if the enemy really is trying to suck the brains out of every living human. That's why I never got the "brainwashing" vibe from the movie. More like "necessary mindset to survive".

So a lot like the WH40K Imperium of Man. Yeah, it's a terrible system, but that's because the alternative is far more terrible (even if they do have better cookiees).

That's why you don't satirize fascism by presenting a world where fascism is justified. How is that satirical? That's like writing a story that "satirizes" democracy by showing how all other systems are inferior.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 05, 2024, 11:15:59 AM

Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.

As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."

True, however I also read the book so my take is more aligned towards that. I could make the argument that the movie sucks because our MCs aren't flying around on jetpacks using handheld nukes to blow the shit out of every non-human skinny and ends with that war ending and the new one against the bugs beginning (due to a possible false flag by the Earth's government... damn bug-lovers had to be rounded up for spreading that obvious and malicious lie about Rio...)
In short, I still like it. I even liked that T&A Showgirls he did... so, shoot me!

EDIT: I really liked the book, can recommend it along with the story: "All You Zombies". Heinlein hit gold with that one! XD

Quote from: Zalman on November 05, 2024, 01:26:35 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 05, 2024, 11:15:59 AM

Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.

I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.

As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."

Yeah, it's not really "propaganda" if the enemy really is trying to suck the brains out of every living human. That's why I never got the "brainwashing" vibe from the movie. More like "necessary mindset to survive".

Thats because there is no "brainwashing" in the movie. Its just ham-handed promotionals.

Quote from: Omega on November 06, 2024, 02:17:56 AM

Quote from: Zalman on November 05, 2024, 01:26:35 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 05, 2024, 11:15:59 AM

Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.

I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.

As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."

Yeah, it's not really "propaganda" if the enemy really is trying to suck the brains out of every living human. That's why I never got the "brainwashing" vibe from the movie. More like "necessary mindset to survive".

Thats because there is no "brainwashing" in the movie. Its just ham-handed promotionals.

Sorry, but I stand by my statements. I'm too much of a troll not to, especially when I'm right. In the meantime, here's something to ponder:

She's wrong, however. Heinlein was too cynical and misanthropic for the book to be a satire. He was serious.  The movie, being made by a Dutchman, WAS comedic in it's handling of propaganda. But, that's my take. I think if Heinlein was alive right now, he would've been canceled and been a Trump supporter. He also would've hated the movie! But I like both, always did!

Ah, a troll. Got it.

Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMI like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic.

The movie opens with the bugs dropping an asteroid on Buenos Aires which kills millions of people.  This is the opening shot in what is obviously a war of genocide by the bugs against humans.  It's clearly fight or die for the humans.  In that case, war is good, healthy and patriotic.  It's also their only choice.

Quote from: yosemitemike on November 11, 2024, 06:59:36 AM

Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMI like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic.

The movie opens with the bugs dropping an asteroid on Buenos Aires which kills millions of people.  This is the opening shot in what is obviously a war of genocide by the bugs against humans.  It's clearly fight or die for the humans.  In that case, war is good, healthy and patriotic.  It's also their only choice.

The question is did the Bugs really drop that asteroid. We are shown propaganda throughout so we can't really trust what they show but they show the Bugs living light years away without any real space travel. They colonize by firing spoor or something. They also insinuate the insane theory a planet bound Bug ass-blasted an asteroid and launched it towards Earth. Not only would that shot be a miracle if it was targeted but it would take millions of years to cross the light years distance. Since we see no other races, and the bugs really couldn't have done it we are left with two options: (1) the Federation did it to motivate the people behind a war (2) The Federation didn't stop a natural asteroid to motivate the people behind a war.

I love the book (which is heavily Libertarian). I like the movie but see the society as more Communist in that they just treat their soldiers as fodder with no armor, no recon, no close air support. Just minimal training and off to the front lines boys.

The satire came from the writer (who is executed in the movie) who also wrote Robocop. The satire in Robocop was far better as it at least makes sense. The only real satire I can see is they have advanced technology but don't do much in the form of healing the wounded veterans who are shown with mechanical hands and no legs.

In Hollywood you really only get two/three failures (your deep into your followup movies when the first failure happens so you have a chance for redemption if the followups are good). Verhoven went from Showgirls, to Starship Troopers, to Hollow Man and his career was over in Hollywood.