Why am I supposed to feel bad about being a naughty fascist when the bad "guys" literally suck a dude's brains out?
You arent. You are supposed to applaud it. And they are fashists how? Because one dresses like one?
The problem is that people keep claiming the BOOK is faschist. When it very is not. Its closer to Socialist I guess? Only people who are willing to serve the community in some way get to vote. And anyone applying has to be found a place. Even if its a desk job or dog catcher.
My issue is that the politics are merely a backdrop for the centerpiece of the novel, its true big idea, the powered armor. The actual starship troopers.
Which, of course, are omitted from the movie.
And instead we get a military that operates like duded-up World War II infantry. It's not even Vietnam-level tactics.
Now if someone does a proper Starship Troopers movie, people will say they're ripping off Iron Man.
It warmed my heart to see that the Martian Marines in The Expanse have actual powered armour.
But yeah, no powered armour and really bad tactics. Why are all the ships so close together that they collide? Space is really big you know. Why are the fort's structural supports outside the walls? If they knew about the bugs, why aren't they armed with weapons designed to kill the bugs?
And where are the tanks and APCs and simple bombers that would annihilate the bugs?
Add some big pots of boiling water and some drawn butter, those things always made me hungry for crab legs.
What I've always heard is that Paul Verhoeven had someone else read read the book for him, and they told him it was fascist, and then he just projected that onto his movie. A lot of Verhoeven's Hollywood movies seem to be attempts to satirize his Euro-weenie perceptions of America. The irony is that in doing so, he wound up making some of the best schlock American action movies of his era.
Sargon of Akkad made a pretty interesting video on Starship Troopers a long time ago, which among other things, makes the case that Verhoeven botched the satire to the extent that even in his movie the Terran Federation is entirely in the right.
(The argument about the movie starts at around 1:03:20 of the video.)
Quote from: ForgottenF on October 29, 2024, 10:02:36 PMSargon of Akkad made a pretty interesting video on Starship Troopers a long time ago, which among other things, makes the case that Verhoeven botched the satire to the extent that even in his movie the Terran Federation is entirely in the right.
(The argument about the movie starts at around 1:03:20 of the video.)
Oh yeah. The things that make the movie palatable for me is the cheesy action movie aspect, the excellent soundtrack, and that Verhoeven either made a complete faceplant of a satire of fascism, or a very smart satire of satire itself. The only reason I think that's a possibility is because some scenes are lifted right out of the book, and then mangled into a parody strawman version, as if he's daring the watcher whose read the book to notice.
Its typical woke media. Just the 90s version.
I'd rather watch the anime than the movie ever again. The anime totally botched the bugs to the point they are not even bugs. They are some sort of bio-morphic things. What they got right was the power armor.
https://youtu.be/O4NEcDO9MNA
On another note, I think we need an alternative franchise that is true to the themes of the novel. Gender equality, racial equality and diversity (Johnny is Filipino in the book), etc.
I have a few ideas myself, including riffing on Starcraft, Aliens, etc.
I enjoyed the movie and I will enjoy it again in the future.
But I am a deplorable, irredeemable garbage Nazi cultist of the Orange Man Bad.
Happily too!
And now let us enjoy the best fight scene in the flick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgq0ecMHfzc
Loved the book, loved the movie, and never cared that they tell different stories with the same title.
It completely baffles me that anyone thinks Paul Verhoeven is trying to say anything one way or another about fascism in this movie. Verhoeven makes movies about the psychology of sex and violence, which is exactly what this movie is about as well. Not politics.
Quote from: Spinachcat on October 31, 2024, 07:36:29 PMAnd now let us enjoy the best fight scene in the flick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgq0ecMHfzc
On location at Hell's Half-acre.
Unfortunately, I couldn't get leave to go home for the week and be one of the extras in this battle.
Starship Troopers reminds me of The Iron Dream. Author Norman Spinrad set out to make a book that was a satire of Adolf Hitler and nazis, but ended up making the best pro-nazi recruitment book of all time.
You can't read that book without wanting to joining the True Men in their glorious fight against the Dominators.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 02, 2024, 12:49:57 PMStarship Troopers reminds me of The Iron Dream. Author Norman Spinrad set out to make a book that was a satire of Adolf Hitler and nazis, but ended up making the best pro-nazi recruitment book of all time.
You can't read that book without wanting to joining the True Men in their glorious fight against the Dominators.
According to Google: "The moral of The Iron Dream by Norman Spinrad is that the triumphalist narrative of heroic fiction can lead to authoritarianism. Spinrad's book is a satire that highlights the connection between fascist ideology and the archetypal hero myths of science fiction and fantasy. The book's message is that the real world is full of ambiguities that are lost when utopian or dystopian books are expected to illuminate the present."
The problem is that this moral isn't visible in the text itself. That's the problem. You can't satirize something by presenting it uncritically. That's not how satire works outside the heads of leftoids.
I always find it funny that leftist satire like
The Iron Dream and
Starship Troopers is identical to idealistic fascist propaganda, whereas leftist propaganda like
Manhunt (that novel where J.K. Rowling gets literally burned at the stake) is misogynistic torture porn. You literally need a framing device to explain the former is even satirical, whereas the latter is self-evidently repulsive to anyone isn't doped to the gills on the koolaid.
I think it's pretty telling that there's no famous leftwing epic fantasy other than Harry Potter, older epic fantasy like Lord of the Rings and Narnia are very conservative by comparison, and HP is considered politically incorrect conservative propaganda now.
Quote from: Zalman on November 01, 2024, 06:49:12 AMLoved the book, loved the movie, and never cared that they tell different stories with the same title.
It completely baffles me that anyone thinks Paul Verhoeven is trying to say anything one way or another about fascism in this movie. Verhoeven makes movies about the psychology of sex and violence, which is exactly what this movie is about as well. Not politics.
Maybe so, but I can't help but notice all the politics in the movie.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 02, 2024, 08:59:58 PMQuote from: Zalman on November 01, 2024, 06:49:12 AMLoved the book, loved the movie, and never cared that they tell different stories with the same title.
It completely baffles me that anyone thinks Paul Verhoeven is trying to say anything one way or another about fascism in this movie. Verhoeven makes movies about the psychology of sex and violence, which is exactly what this movie is about as well. Not politics.
Maybe so, but I can't help but notice all the politics in the movie.
When the movie originally aired, it was dismissed by critics as jingoistic garbage. Now you have youtube videos analyzing all the "hints" that the bugs are a persecuted minority.
It's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.
You want fiction that treats orcs and goblins as a persecuted minority and doesn't suck? Read
Drifters by Kota Hirano.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.
I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.
Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.
I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.
Exactly! The movie's antiwar message was tainted by the director's leftist politics, and now the movie would work as a "satire" of
leftism.
The cgi cartoon is much better at pushing an antiwar message. The war against the bugs is depicted as appropriately unpleasant. The team isn't fighting because war is good, they're fighting because the bugs don't give them a choice. It's not glamorized. One episode has them giving goodbye messages to their families in case they die.
In general I find the whole prowar/antiwar schism nonsensical. What isn't antiwar? What is prowar? I can't think of any story that is actually pro-war unless the protagonist is a conqueror who accrues a harem. What are you supposed to do when an enemy attacks you and refuses to stop after attempting diplomacy? Roll over?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMNow you have youtube videos analyzing all the "hints" that the bugs are a persecuted minority.
Theres a whole subculture of this that run around proclaiming this or that villain was really right all along! Or this or that evil race was just misunterstood and persecuted!
Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.
I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.
As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."
The world of Dustborn sounds worse. It promotes using outright mind control to enslave people who disagree with you.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 05, 2024, 11:15:59 AMQuote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.
I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.
As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."
Yeah, it's not really "propaganda" if the enemy really
is trying to suck the brains out of every living human. That's why I never got the "brainwashing" vibe from the movie. More like "necessary mindset to survive".
Quote from: Zalman on November 05, 2024, 01:26:35 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on November 05, 2024, 11:15:59 AMQuote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.
I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.
As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."
Yeah, it's not really "propaganda" if the enemy really is trying to suck the brains out of every living human. That's why I never got the "brainwashing" vibe from the movie. More like "necessary mindset to survive".
So a lot like the WH40K Imperium of Man. Yeah, it's a terrible system, but that's because the alternative is far more terrible (even if they do have better cookiees).
That's why you don't satirize fascism by presenting a world where fascism is justified. How is that satirical? That's like writing a story that "satirizes" democracy by showing how all other systems are inferior.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 05, 2024, 11:15:59 AMQuote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.
As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."
True, however I also read the book so my take is more aligned towards that. I could make the argument that the movie sucks because our MCs aren't flying around on jetpacks using handheld nukes to blow the shit out of every non-human skinny (https://youtu.be/0Ld8yL4kWbo?si=IPkSDsgZwEv1KdTA) and ends with that war ending and the new one against the bugs beginning (due to a possible false flag by the Earth's government... damn bug-lovers had to be rounded up for spreading that obvious and malicious lie about Rio...)
In short, I still like it. I even liked that T&A Showgirls he did... so, shoot me! :P
EDIT: I really liked the book, can recommend it along with the story: "All You Zombies". Heinlein hit gold with that one! XD
Quote from: Zalman on November 05, 2024, 01:26:35 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on November 05, 2024, 11:15:59 AMQuote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.
I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.
As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."
Yeah, it's not really "propaganda" if the enemy really is trying to suck the brains out of every living human. That's why I never got the "brainwashing" vibe from the movie. More like "necessary mindset to survive".
Thats because there is no "brainwashing" in the movie. Its just ham-handed promotionals.
Quote from: Omega on November 06, 2024, 02:17:56 AMQuote from: Zalman on November 05, 2024, 01:26:35 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on November 05, 2024, 11:15:59 AMQuote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 03, 2024, 09:03:57 AMIt's a terrible movie with a literal cult following.
I like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic. While the reality of the soldiers is horrific, and traumatic. Trauma + Propaganda = Brainwashing. That's what the movie is really about, under the surface. At least to me. But now brainwashing is good and following fud is the norm?... pathetic.
As I pointed out when starting the thread, it kinda undermines the premise when the alternative to being brainwashed is to have your brain sucked out. I kinda shrug and go "Damned if you do..."
Yeah, it's not really "propaganda" if the enemy really is trying to suck the brains out of every living human. That's why I never got the "brainwashing" vibe from the movie. More like "necessary mindset to survive".
Thats because there is no "brainwashing" in the movie. Its just ham-handed promotionals.
Sorry, but I stand by my statements. I'm too much of a troll not to, especially when I'm right. In the meantime, here's something to ponder:
She's wrong, however. Heinlein was too cynical and misanthropic for the book to be a satire. He was serious. The movie, being made by a Dutchman, WAS comedic in it's handling of propaganda. But, that's my take. I think if Heinlein was alive right now, he would've been canceled and been a Trump supporter. He also would've hated the movie! But I like both, always did!
Ah, a troll. Got it.
Quote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMI like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic.
The movie opens with the bugs dropping an asteroid on Buenos Aires which kills millions of people. This is the opening shot in what is obviously a war of genocide by the bugs against humans. It's clearly fight or die for the humans. In that case, war is good, healthy and patriotic. It's also their only choice.
Quote from: yosemitemike on November 11, 2024, 06:59:36 AMQuote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMI like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic.
The movie opens with the bugs dropping an asteroid on Buenos Aires which kills millions of people. This is the opening shot in what is obviously a war of genocide by the bugs against humans. It's clearly fight or die for the humans. In that case, war is good, healthy and patriotic. It's also their only choice.
The question is did the Bugs really drop that asteroid. We are shown propaganda throughout so we can't really trust what they show but they show the Bugs living light years away without any real space travel. They colonize by firing spoor or something. They also insinuate the insane theory a planet bound Bug ass-blasted an asteroid and launched it towards Earth. Not only would that shot be a miracle if it was targeted but it would take millions of years to cross the light years distance. Since we see no other races, and the bugs really couldn't have done it we are left with two options: (1) the Federation did it to motivate the people behind a war (2) The Federation didn't stop a natural asteroid to motivate the people behind a war.
I love the book (which is heavily Libertarian). I like the movie but see the society as more Communist in that they just treat their soldiers as fodder with no armor, no recon, no close air support. Just minimal training and off to the front lines boys.
The satire came from the writer (who is executed in the movie) who also wrote Robocop. The satire in Robocop was far better as it at least makes sense. The only real satire I can see is they have advanced technology but don't do much in the form of healing the wounded veterans who are shown with mechanical hands and no legs.
In Hollywood you really only get two/three failures (your deep into your followup movies when the first failure happens so you have a chance for redemption if the followups are good). Verhoven went from Showgirls, to Starship Troopers, to Hollow Man and his career was over in Hollywood.
Sony and Verhoven permanently soiled SST. Now it's a shithole comedy franchise. Fuck that shit.
We need to make our own IP about space marines fighting bugs that is genuinely earnest and not trying to demonize conservatives. I'm currently working on my own and I encourage everyone else to try writing their own too.
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 28, 2024, 01:37:42 PMQuote from: yosemitemike on November 11, 2024, 06:59:36 AMQuote from: consolcwby on November 03, 2024, 11:29:59 PMI like the film. I like Paul Verhoeven's films. Starship Troopers is supposed to make you think about the juxtaposition of propaganda and it's use to convince the masses that WAR is good, healthy, and patriotic.
The movie opens with the bugs dropping an asteroid on Buenos Aires which kills millions of people. This is the opening shot in what is obviously a war of genocide by the bugs against humans. It's clearly fight or die for the humans. In that case, war is good, healthy and patriotic. It's also their only choice.
The question is did the Bugs really drop that asteroid. We are shown propaganda throughout so we can't really trust what they show but they show the Bugs living light years away without any real space travel. They colonize by firing spoor or something. They also insinuate the insane theory a planet bound Bug ass-blasted an asteroid and launched it towards Earth. Not only would that shot be a miracle if it was targeted but it would take millions of years to cross the light years distance. Since we see no other races, and the bugs really couldn't have done it we are left with two options: (1) the Federation did it to motivate the people behind a war (2) The Federation didn't stop a natural asteroid to motivate the people behind a war.
The problem with this critique is that we can't tell if Verhoeven (or whoever wrote the screenplay) understood interstellar distances. We never see the starships using Cherenkov drive. (The books FTL drive)
It could be that the film just says "The bugs did it" and mean it truthfully and factually and just didn't think about how plausible the situation was portrayed.
QuoteSony and Verhoven permanently soiled SST. Now it's a shithole comedy franchise. Fuck that shit.
We need to make our own IP about space marines fighting bugs that is genuinely earnest and not trying to demonize conservatives. I'm currently working on my own and I encourage everyone else to try writing their own too.
Yes that's what we need dozen more space marine vs book IPs.
How about stop being neurotic weirdo, and enjoy inherently libertarian nature of RPGs by not caring about IPs at all and just running for your friends whatever variant of your own, or novel or film lore you want.
You reallly feel market has like real place for dozen new IPs about marines vs bugs, huh.
Quote from: Wrath of God on December 01, 2024, 06:46:50 PMQuoteSony and Verhoven permanently soiled SST. Now it's a shithole comedy franchise. Fuck that shit.
We need to make our own IP about space marines fighting bugs that is genuinely earnest and not trying to demonize conservatives. I'm currently working on my own and I encourage everyone else to try writing their own too.
Yes that's what we need dozen more space marine vs book IPs.
How about stop being neurotic weirdo, and enjoy inherently libertarian nature of RPGs by not caring about IPs at all and just running for your friends whatever variant of your own, or novel or film lore you want.
You reallly feel market has like real place for dozen new IPs about marines vs bugs, huh.
No shit, Sherlock. I don't give a fuck about libertarianism. All RPGs suck ass now and I want it to not suck. I want to talk to people who share my tastes and share homebrews. The current RPG hobby sucks ass. It was better in the 80s, 90s and 2000s. Now everything is drek. I'm sick of it.
I don't even play RPGs anymore and I don't even remember how long it's been. I'm at the point where I want to write RPGs because everything else sucks ass.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 07:29:33 PMI don't even play RPGs anymore and I don't even remember how long it's been. I'm at the point where I want to write RPGs because everything else sucks ass.
I was going to make a smartass response, but I find myself pitying you and hoping I don't ever get to that point (I've been close before). I encourage you to find a group you like, as a good group can help you get past a great deal of the suck.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 01, 2024, 08:11:08 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 07:29:33 PMI don't even play RPGs anymore and I don't even remember how long it's been. I'm at the point where I want to write RPGs because everything else sucks ass.
I was going to make a smartass response, but I find myself pitying you and hoping I don't ever get to that point (I've been close before). I encourage you to find a group you like, as a good group can help you get past a great deal of the suck.
It would certainly help if there were decent bug war franchises. They're all shit tier due to corporate mismanagement. I'm writing my own for that reason. I'm writing several because it's that bad.
Boy am I resentful. I wouldn't have to deal with that shit if copyright didn't give corpos exclusive monopolies over ideas for 95+ years. It's fucking stupid and ruins popular culture.
Every genre, every hobby, it's all garbage now. I have never seen a better argument for Marxism than what the morons and champagne socialists have done to the arts because copyright gives them free rein to do so.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 08:40:53 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 01, 2024, 08:11:08 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 07:29:33 PMI don't even play RPGs anymore and I don't even remember how long it's been. I'm at the point where I want to write RPGs because everything else sucks ass.
I was going to make a smartass response, but I find myself pitying you and hoping I don't ever get to that point (I've been close before). I encourage you to find a group you like, as a good group can help you get past a great deal of the suck.
It would certainly help if there were decent bug war franchises. They're all shit tier due to corporate mismanagement. I'm writing my own for that reason. I'm writing several because it's that bad.
Boy am I resentful. I wouldn't have to deal with that shit if copyright didn't give corpos exclusive monopolies over ideas for 95+ years. It's fucking stupid and ruins popular culture.
Every genre, every hobby, it's all garbage now. I have never seen a better argument for Marxism than what the morons and champagne socialists have done to the arts because copyright gives them free rein to do so.
Find a group of players that you enjoy gaming with and most issues with settings and systems will be far easier to tolerate...unless you're
that guy. If you're
that guy -- the one that can't find a way to relax and have fun with friends, then the problem is not likely the settings, the systems, the "corpos" or anything beyond yourself.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 28, 2024, 03:41:00 PMIt could be that the film just says "The bugs did it" and mean it truthfully and factually and just didn't think about how plausible the situation was portrayed.
The movie glosses over how the bugs do this stuff. The animated series goes into more detail and is considered canon. If I remember correctly, they plant bugs with an organic version of the FTL drive on the asteroid and move it that way. They also serve as FTL capable transports. I think they just called them transport bugs.
Unfortunately, you can't legally buy or stream the cartoons because of copyright. They're actually true to the book themes, but Sony has buried them. Unless copyright is reformed, anyone who wants a decent bug war franchise that isn't shit and/or bad satire will have to make it themselves.
David Gerrold on Starship Troopers
Quote from: David GerroldI am going to make a declarative assertion.
Stand back. I don't want anyone getting hurt.
Here we go.
Starship Troopers is the single most misunderstood book in the entire SF genre.
Now, putting aside the observation that all science fiction since Heinlein is either imitation of Heinlein or reaction to Heinlein, let's simply talk about three things:
What was Heinlein trying to do?
How well did he do it?
Was it worth doing in the first place?
It's that first question that requires the long answer.
Heinlein had been working on Stranger In A Strange Land. He saw a paid ad advocating a unilateral US ban on nuclear testing. It pissed him off enough that he published a counterblast in his home newspaper and formed a group to advocate in favor of continued testing.
And then he stopped working on Stranger and wrote Starship Troopers. Originally, he wrote it as a juvenile, but his editor at Simon & Schuster rejected it and he never wrote another juvenile for them (or anyone else) ever again.
(BTW, as others have noted, he regarded both Stranger In A Strange Land and Starship Troopers as "thought experiments," not advocacy. And yet, they both still read like advocacy.)
Starship Troopers was serialized in the fall of 59 in The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, one of the few serials they ever published. The followiwng year, it was published in book form.
Starship Trooper traces the career of Johnny Rico, a Filipino living in Buenos Aires, who joins the Mobile Infantry, a high-tech version of the marines. The Mobile Infantry is fighting a ferocious war against "the bugs."
The book is more about Rico's training than it is about the war. Just as Space Cadet was about teaching Matt Dodson how to think like a professional, so is Starship Trooper about teaching Rico the responsibilities of a military person.
Those discussions are the heart and soul of the book. They are the whole point of the book. The bugs are secondary to those essays. And the point of the entire effort is to discuss the relationship of the individual to the society that has nurtured, protected, and educated them. A human being benefits from their participation in a civil society. Therefore, that same human being has an obligation to keep that society functioning — not just for themselves, but for everyone else who exists as part of that society.
While Heinlein doesn't use this analogy, it's a fair one. A society is a functioning organism. Every part of the organism has a function — whether it's growing crops or maintaining the roads or making sure the plumbing works. Those who benefit and do not contribute to the well-being of the organism are parasites, feeding but not contributing.
Heinlein's point is simple. When the civil organism is under attack, the members of the organism have a corresponding responsibility to defend against the attack. Otherwise, the civil organism dies. In the human body, white blood cells are the front line against infection by invaders: viruses, germs, microbes — bugs. In the war that Heinlein postulates, the Mobile Infantry are the white blood cells defending against the alien bugs.
That's it. That's the point.
When your nation is under attack, you must become a part of the defense. Heinlein's experience was World War II — when the home front was as important as the battlefields. Women went to work in the factories. Schoolchildren had scrap metal and rag and paper drives. Housewives collected their bacon fat which was used to make ammunition.
Now, Heinlein added a couple interesting twists to hammer home the point. Only those who had served were allowed to vote — because part of their service was to be trained in the responsibility that a citizen owed to the society that had raised and nurtured and educated them.
The second part was the History and Moral Philosophy courses that were mandatory in high school — and which functioned somewhat as a recruiting course for the military.
Many people have said that this is a fascist wet dream, indoctrination and recruitment — and you can point to Nazi Germany for the closest example. Fair enough. But that's not the whole story.
Sidebar: Various human potential companies created Large Group Awareness Trainings — the most famous were est and Lifespring. The Landmark Forum is still around. People who did not understand the nature of these courses compared them to cults, compared the philosophies of personal effectiveness to brainwashing or indoctrination. But really, most of the courses (the ones that I'm familiar with) were a kind of westernized zen delivered with a fire hose. (ie. "Get over yourself.")
What Heinlein posited was also misinterpreted as brainwashing and indoctrination — when its purpose was simply to introduce a new perspective about the nature of military service as a necessary function for the protection of a civilization under attack.
Now, to be fair — Heinlein stacked the deck. Not the first time, not the last time. In this book, the enemy exist as a relentless, unending horde of mindless giant insects. Bugs. There is nothing there to empathize with. They are killing machines — chitinous terminators. The only response is kill or be killed. And in that context, Heinlein's assertin is justifiable.
Now, consider if the enemy was not some kind of alien bug — but instead, another branch of humanity. Or even just another nation with a shared border. And consider that the battle is not so much a fight to the death, but an argument over whether eggs should be broken at the big end or the little end. At that point, the whole discussion of military service breaks down with one simple question, "Are you fucking kidding me? You want me to die on that fucking hill?"
Second question? How well did Heinlein do it? Well, we're still talking about the book 60 years later, so I would say that he did a damn good job. Except that we're not just talking about the book, we're arguing ferociously about it. So maybe his point wasn't as clear as he intended it to be. The accusations of fascism have pretty much obscured the more interesting point, which is worth discussion even if we're not at war:
What is the obligation of a citizen toward the nation in which he lives? If the citizen benefits from their participation, what is their obligation — but also if the citizen does not benefit, what are their options?
Also — what are the responsibilities of those who do vote? Heinlein's thesis was that the vote is so sacred that one does not just vote out of prejudice and certainly not out of ignorance, but out of rational examination of the consequences of the choice.
These are the real questions in Starship Troopers and the ones that few analysts and critics have ever addressed in depth. Because it's so much easier to do a Donald Sutherland, point the finger and scream. Roll credits.
Third question — was it worth doing in the first place? I say yes. Despite all the sidebars and accusations and misinterpretations and blah blahs, there are questions raised in the book that need to be addressed and discussed at length.
Now ... about that movie. The director wanted to do a satire on fascists who aren't aware that their behavior is fascist. Fair enough. He used the book as a jumping off point. In doing so, he missed the much larger questions. Of course, that would have been a much harder movie to make.
And ... by the way, he was given a choice. There was a limit on the budget. He had to choose. Power Armor or bugs. He chose bugs. Which is why the soldiers portrayed in the film are woefully under-armed, fighting monstrous insects with the futuristic equivalent of an AK-47. Not a bad weapon, but the wrong weapon for fighting giant killer insects. Those soldiers needed flame-throwers, daisy cutters, and the smell of napalm in the morning. What the movie portrays is one military disaster after another — and the soldiers are nothing more than disposable cannon fodder.
(BTW, I thought those bugs were badly conceived. Beautifully rendered, but hard to believe.)
The movie version of Starship Troopers is bad military strategy, it's bad science fiction, and even if the intention is satire — it's bad satire. It's a bad movie. Seeing Doogie Howser show up in an SS uniform provoked howls of laughter at the screening I sat through.
To really do Starship Troopers justice requires a producer and director who have a genuine affection for the book and are willing to tell it as Rico's story. Heinlein's structural model for the book was All Quiet On The Western Front — and perhaps even a fairly substantial film of the era, Battle Cry. Those efforts were about the experience of the grunt — and that's what Starship Troopers is really about. It's a growth arc for Johnny Rico — from high school student to Lieutenant Rico. The war is not the point. The "indoctrination" is not the point — it's about Rico learning what he needs to learn so he can accept his responsibilities in the circumstances.
That's what too many of the book's critics have missed. It's certainly what the film so badly missed.
IMHO.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
Quote from: jeff37923 on December 02, 2024, 11:06:21 AMDavid Gerrold on Starship Troopers
*snip*
Well, shit. That pretty much covers my opinions on the book and film. I wish I'd known about that little post sooner. :)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 03, 2024, 05:26:25 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on December 02, 2024, 11:06:21 AMDavid Gerrold on Starship Troopers
*snip*
Well, shit. That pretty much covers my opinions on the book and film. I wish I'd known about that little post sooner. :)
There are a few authors I follow. Sometimes they hit the ball right out of the park.
In the book and the 3d animated show, the bugs have space ships and warp drive just like the humans. In the book the bugs have laser weapons too and other such things. In the book it makes total sense that they could have used their warp technology to transport and accelerate an asteroid to hit earth.
It was never really explained in detail in the movie about how the bugs are on more than one planets, but shooting spores into space makes less sense than them having some kind of space ship technology just like humans. Every time I hear someone make the claim about the humans dropping a rock on earth themselves it just seems like brain dead speculation to reach an already decided conclusion instead of examining the movie without prejudice to come to a conclusion.