Yes, piracy is so ruinous that when Monty Python recently made all their material freely available, their DVD sales went up 23000%.

Here's a link to that news.

Again and again, artists and writers who have experimented with making books, movies, tv shows, etc free on the internet have ended up discovering a truth that is highly inconvenient to the RIAA and MPAA; namely that putting shit up for free on the internet makes your sales go up.

I mean really, who the fuck would have thought that giving people free shit would also encourage them to buy from you?? Who could possibly have imagined that treating customers like criminals or potential criminals would actually get them pissed off at you and make them less likely to want to buy from you and more likely to steal from you??

Oh yeah, me. I thought of that.

To close up, everyone who still thinks that "free" doesn't make sense as a business concept or that online freedom is going to lead to the doom of our economy needs to read this article.

RPGPundit

One most wonder how you confused "piracy" with putting up clips of your material and having links where to buy the entire movie.

One is simply advertising, one is not.

Entire bodies of work have been put up, and this STILL has led to an increase in sales.
When is your side going to admit its theories are flawed and based on dead paradigms?

RPGPundit

That's not the point.  Whether or not putting up books/videos/whatever for free increases sales, that decision should be up to the creator or the copyright holder

Strawman, Pundit. Pundit, Strawm...oh..I'm so embarrassed..I see you've already met...

Quote from: Technomancer;281237That's not the point.  Whether or not putting up books/videos/whatever for free increases sales, that decision should be up to the creator or the copyright holder

Bingo Lucy!

Quote from: HinterWelt;281240Bingo Lucy!

I said the same in many more words over on d20 Haven.

None of which addresses the underlying point, which is that availability of the product appears to drive sales.

Whether or not the method of that availability is ethical or moral is a different question.

Quote from: RPGPundit;281230Entire bodies of work have been put up, and this STILL has led to an increase in sales.
When is your side going to admit its theories are flawed and based on dead paradigms?

What is this "your side"? You've simply been called out for misrepreseting something.

It's smart to have samples of your material for people to see before buying, which is what these guys have done. You've tried to insinuate it was something more than it was.

That and confused it with piracy.

I wonder if folks are also confusing causation with correlation.

Quote from: StormBringer;281253None of which addresses the underlying point, which is that availability of the product appears to drive sales.

Whether or not the method of that availability is ethical or moral is a different question.

I would argue that is the point though. Distinguishing between piracy and legitimate marketing would make pundits whole post meaningless. If we are talking about clips of your movie being put up (or in some of our cases entire RPG books) then you end up with it being the choice of the IP holder and a legitimate marketing method. If you are talking about piracy (the illegal reproduction and distribution of an IP property) then you are talking, in most cases, about someone else profiting from your work.

So, I don't think there is any "point" to discuss that providing customers with previews generate sales. Would anyone disagree with that? I mean, it would be the equivalent of asking someone to buy a book...which book you cannot know until you pay for it. So, I would object to Pundit's use of the term piracy here as it would mean I am engaged in piracy which I most certainly am not.

Quote from: Technomancer;281237That's not the point.  Whether or not putting up books/videos/whatever for free increases sales, that decision should be up to the creator or the copyright holder

YES!!

This has always been the crux of the piracy matter.

Quote from: HinterWelt;281259So, I don't think there is any "point" to discuss that providing customers with previews generate sales. Would anyone disagree with that? I mean, it would be the equivalent of asking someone to buy a book...which book you cannot know until you pay for it. So, I would object to Pundit's use of the term piracy here as it would mean I am engaged in piracy which I most certainly am not.

It seems to me that the argument against 'piracy', however, always revolved around this whole idea that if people don't have to pay for it, they won't, and the company in question will go out of business.

Right now, Monty Python has a bunch of clips, and are likely editing more to add for the future.  At some point, if they intend to follow through with their plans, the whole series and the movies will be available.  Perhaps not in whole, and assembling a particular episode may be more hassle than buying the DVDs.

So again, the argument about the ethics of who makes this material available and by what channel they do so is rather separate from the idea that the availability itself is somehow harmful.  The RIAA/MPAA were making the case that providing the product for free was costing them billions upon billions of dollars.  There is no functional difference between Baen Books or Monty Python providing their products for free and Shifty McPirate uploading stuff onto an ftp site overseas.  Hence, the argument against piracy financially harming record companies or movie studios was likely flawed from the beginning, as there is no evidence for some recent upsurge in morality.

Because it is a discussion about ethics/morality.  Certainly a valid discussion to have, but wholly different than piracy, which is always framed in terms of financial harm.

Quote from: HinterWelt;281259I would argue that is the point though. Distinguishing between piracy and legitimate marketing would make pundits whole post meaningless. If we are talking about clips of your movie being put up (or in some of our cases entire RPG books) then you end up with it being the choice of the IP holder and a legitimate marketing method. If you are talking about piracy (the illegal reproduction and distribution of an IP property) then you are talking, in most cases, about someone else profiting from your work.

So, I don't think there is any "point" to discuss that providing customers with previews generate sales. Would anyone disagree with that? I mean, it would be the equivalent of asking someone to buy a book...which book you cannot know until you pay for it. So, I would object to Pundit's use of the term piracy here as it would mean I am engaged in piracy which I most certainly am not.

Bill as usual says it better.

Quote from: StormBringer;281263There is no functional difference between Baen Books or Monty Python providing their products for free and Shifty McPirate uploading stuff onto an ftp site overseas.

Apparently, there is.