I saw this in the theater yesterday. And I enjoyed it.
It was a period piece. Set just after WW2. The appearance of Godzilla was treated as an insult to injury to a country that had already been reduced to its lowest. That's what the Minus One meant.
The United States was treated as having its own issues in this movie. And was unable to help because of tension with the Soviets. So the Japanese were left to muster their ragtag self-defense militia to take on the crisis. They did a lot with what skeleton of military resources they had been left with.
Sounds like more victim playing by Japan.
If they had any guts they would show post WWII China cheering on Godzilla as payback for the atrocities Japan committed against China and got away with nearly consequence free.
A lot of people are saying that this is the best Godzilla movie ever. I'd agree that the human-bits are very good and I'd struggle to match it with any other. However, there isn't a whole lot of monster action. Overall though, it seems that they wrote themselves into a corner for setting up sequels. I hope that they make a Godzilla Minus Zero (or Godzilla Zero) because Toho has been making too many standalone Godzilla movies. Even the last one ended on the sort of cliffhanger that never got resolved.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 03, 2023, 01:11:19 PM
A lot of people are saying that this is the best Godzilla movie ever. I'd agree that the human-bits are very good and I'd struggle to match it with any other. However, there isn't a whole lot of monster action. Overall though, it seems that they wrote themselves into a corner for setting up sequels. I hope that they make a Godzilla Minus Zero (or Godzilla Zero) because Toho has been making too many standalone Godzilla movies. Even the last one ended on the sort of cliffhanger that never got resolved.
A lot of the older (60s and 70s) Godzilla movies have a lot of non-Godzilla story. My wife, when I watched the second or third movie, asked halfway through, "Doesn't Godzilla show up at some point?" LOL
Quote from: Omega on December 02, 2023, 06:45:19 PM
Sounds like more victim playing by Japan.
If they had any guts they would show post WWII China cheering on Godzilla as payback for the atrocities Japan committed against China and got away with nearly consequence free.
My circle of friends from college started an anime con in the 90's, and one of our staffers was of Chinese descent. He couldn't tell his mom he was going to a Japanese anime con. She was from Nanking.
The trailer reminds me a lot of the original movie, where Godzilla going through Tokyo was properly disturbing.
Quote from: Lurkndog on December 04, 2023, 09:26:54 PM
The trailer reminds me a lot of the original movie, where Godzilla going through Tokyo was properly disturbing.
It was very disturbing. Godzilla was portrayed as a horrifying monster throughout the movie.
The atomic breath set off atomic explosions. There was no downplaying of that. This was a horror film in the true sense.
Quote from: Tod13 on December 03, 2023, 01:20:09 PM
A lot of the older (60s and 70s) Godzilla movies have a lot of non-Godzilla story. My wife, when I watched the second or third movie, asked halfway through, "Doesn't Godzilla show up at some point?" LOL
That was fairly standard for Japanese movies for a long time.
H-Man comes to mind right off as it is more a crime investigation movie than a blob monster movie. Secret of the Teligan is another apparently. Still looking to get a copy some day.
I think it is partially that Japanese moviemakers, particularly in the 1950s, came from a moviemaking tradition where the establishing dramatic scenes were normally the entire movie. It's not a bad thing.
In modern-day media, you get genre movies made by people who have only ever watched genre movies, and they can be, frankly, kinda inbred. They tend to skip over the establishing stuff to go straight to the tropes, and then they hit the tropes way too hard.
For instance, it's pretty clear that a lot of modern day anime studios have only ever watched anime, and so they make entire series composed of nothing but boiled-down anime tropes. None of the characters has anything like a real personality, and EVERYONE IS SHOUTING ALL THE TIME.
I see it in American comics books too. Let's take ____ and make it r-rated and way too explicit. And all too often, they run out of steam after only a couple of years, because apart from rebelling against the status quo, and imitating their heroes, they've got nothing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xubEPzbUUms
This is a fair review.
The original Godzilla movie had the right mix of people vs monster time. The new US made one felt way off balance.
H-man works too because the crime drama and the people mesh into the mystery of the monsters.
The thing with Godzilla is that it's a really great metaphor for nature or atomic power, or whatever and can be used to great effect showing people coping with the bad effects of it.
But at the same time, it's really, really cool to see giant monsters fight each other.
Hollywood has gone the latter route, while Japan has gone back to the roots.
It's a damn good movie, period. And obviously a very solid Godzilla film. One thing I really enjoyed is how they brought back lots of the score from the original film. The way they got around the American occupation was a bit weak and contrived, but I understand why they did it.
And the best part? The utterly non-diverse, entirely Japanese cast. No random BIPOC or half-Caucasian hero in a wheelchair or whatever.
Quote from: Omega on December 06, 2023, 05:02:46 AM
The original Godzilla movie had the right mix of people vs monster time. The new US made one felt way off balance.
For me the one film that had the best mix of human story and monster action was GMK. Both that movie and Minus One have a very similar ending as well.
I'm pretty sure that Godzilla and other giant monsters casually annihilating cities in their wake would terrify the US and Soviets so badly that they'd set aside their differences and work together.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 11, 2023, 03:28:33 PM
I'm pretty sure that Godzilla and other giant monsters casually annihilating cities in their wake would terrify the US and Soviets so badly that they'd set aside their differences and work together.
I'm pretty sure if there was a real Terminator the military would have neutralized the threat. So there was no need for the dramatic narrative of Sarah Conner and Kyle Reese on the run.
Every movie storyline can be rationalized away.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 11, 2023, 03:28:33 PM
I'm pretty sure that Godzilla and other giant monsters casually annihilating cities in their wake would terrify the US and Soviets so badly that they'd set aside their differences and work together.
To be fair, in this movie Godzilla didn't destroy cities, he just wrecked one suburb. An area that is now referred to as a "shopping district". And considering that he was a result of US nuclear testing, the Soviets would look at him as an American weapon.
However, I do think that the movie would have been a bit better if Godzilla was smaller than he was shown so he could be viewed as more of a local threat. It would have made the ending more believable.
The area Godzilla wrecked was also hit with the atomic breath. Which triggered an atomic explosion. Fallout ensued immediately.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 11, 2023, 10:27:39 AM
Quote from: Omega on December 06, 2023, 05:02:46 AM
The original Godzilla movie had the right mix of people vs monster time. The new US made one felt way off balance.
For me the one film that had the best mix of human story and monster action was GMK. Both that movie and Minus One have a very similar ending as well.
I have that one on VHS or DVD. Pretty good show and someone had alot of fun with all the carnage of battle. Also one of the few where the military is actually effective to a degree. G84 was another where the military actually held their own against Godzilla with the Super-X.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 03, 2023, 01:11:19 PM
A lot of people are saying that this is the best Godzilla movie ever. I'd agree that the human-bits are very good and I'd struggle to match it with any other. However, there isn't a whole lot of monster action. Overall though, it seems that they wrote themselves into a corner for setting up sequels. I hope that they make a Godzilla Minus Zero (or Godzilla Zero) because Toho has been making too many standalone Godzilla movies. Even the last one ended on the sort of cliffhanger that never got resolved.
Did they? The ending seemed to hint that Godzilla will be back though.
Quote from: Trond on January 01, 2024, 11:32:29 AM
Did they? The ending seemed to hint that Godzilla will be back though.
They showed Godzilla sinking in the water rapidly regenerating. So yeah, it was more than a hint. Godzilla will be back bigger and badder than before. Should they make a sequel to this movie.
Quote from: Omega on December 02, 2023, 06:45:19 PM
Sounds like more victim playing by Japan.
If they had any guts they would show post WWII China cheering on Godzilla as payback for the atrocities Japan committed against China and got away with nearly consequence free.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 11, 2023, 08:50:03 AM
It's a damn good movie, period. And obviously a very solid Godzilla film. One thing I really enjoyed is how they brought back lots of the score from the original film. The way they got around the American occupation was a bit weak and contrived, but I understand why they did it.
And the best part? The utterly non-diverse, entirely Japanese cast. No random BIPOC or half-Caucasian hero in a wheelchair or whatever.
I just saw it tonight with my son, and I agree with Omega here. I liked the first half, but the Japanese ex-military shit was idiotic victim-playing. Seriously, if a German movie came out about all-Aryan heroic ex-Wehrmacht in post-WW2 Germany fighting a monster and redeeming their failures in the war, how would that go over?
They're trying to make it a gritty historical drama with a disappointing lack of monster action, but the actual history was that post-war Tokyo was full of American soldiers. The few lines about why there were no Americans were nonsense.
A particular line that bugged me was when they criticized the Japanese military for not respecting life, as shown by having poorly-armored tanks and no ejection seats in their planes and using suicide bombers, that unnecessarily got their own soldiers killed... which leaves out the more obvious way the Japanese military didn't respect life - by their war crimes and slaughter of the Chinese and others.
Quote from: jhkim on January 05, 2024, 12:23:01 AMSeriously, if a German movie came out about all-Aryan heroic ex-Wehrmacht in post-WW2 Germany fighting a monster and redeeming their failures in the war, how would that go over?
That's sounds awesome. I'd totally see that. They could use the set up of Frankenstien's Army which would have made more sense if the protagonists were German rather than Soviets, like in that movie. Maybe similar to Castle Itter but with Frankentruppen.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 05, 2024, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 05, 2024, 12:23:01 AMSeriously, if a German movie came out about all-Aryan heroic ex-Wehrmacht in post-WW2 Germany fighting a monster and redeeming their failures in the war, how would that go over?
That's sounds awesome. I'd totally see that. They could use the set up of Frankenstien's Army which would have made more sense if the protagonists were German rather than Soviets, like in that movie. Maybe similar to Castle Itter but with Frankentruppen.
You might like it, but I think the heroic Wehrmacht soldiers would not go over well in any of the countries Germany attacked. Or even in Germany.
I would note how GODZILLA MINUS ONE isn't being released anywhere in East or South Asia outside of Japan. Some people find that puzzling, but it seems pretty obvious to me. Here's a sample comment:
QuoteIf anyone is worried that GODZILLA MINUS ONE still isn't showing in HK bcuz of political reasons, pls note that it's not yet released anywhere in Asia either. Not even South Korea, Thailand, Singapore, India, etc.
It seems they're just slow in finding distributors in Asia
https://twitter.com/goofrider/status/1735607670928003180
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2024, 02:25:23 AM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 05, 2024, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 05, 2024, 12:23:01 AMSeriously, if a German movie came out about all-Aryan heroic ex-Wehrmacht in post-WW2 Germany fighting a monster and redeeming their failures in the war, how would that go over?
That's sounds awesome. I'd totally see that. They could use the set up of Frankenstien's Army which would have made more sense if the protagonists were German rather than Soviets, like in that movie. Maybe similar to Castle Itter but with Frankentruppen.
You might like it, but I think the heroic Wehrmacht soldiers would not go over well in any of the countries Germany attacked. Or even in Germany.
I would note how GODZILLA MINUS ONE isn't being released anywhere in East or South Asia outside of Japan. Some people find that puzzling, but it seems pretty obvious to me. Here's a sample comment:
QuoteIf anyone is worried that GODZILLA MINUS ONE still isn't showing in HK bcuz of political reasons, pls note that it's not yet released anywhere in Asia either. Not even South Korea, Thailand, Singapore, India, etc.
It seems they're just slow in finding distributors in Asia
https://twitter.com/goofrider/status/1735607670928003180
Das Boot has entered the chat.
Besides, we know your personal bias against the Japanese, due to your heritage. Not everyone is like you.
Well Japan did colonize, (or liberate, in their perspective) pretty much all of Asia during WW II and the rest of Asia hasn't forgotten that. So, "slowness in finding distributors" might be a bit more than that. And it could be because of the emphasis on Japan as a victim in WW II. Yes, the Japanese people, like the German people, suffered tremendously in WW II, certainly more than the Americans. But they brought it upon themselves.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 10, 2024, 09:09:31 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2024, 02:25:23 AM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 05, 2024, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 05, 2024, 12:23:01 AMSeriously, if a German movie came out about all-Aryan heroic ex-Wehrmacht in post-WW2 Germany fighting a monster and redeeming their failures in the war, how would that go over?
That's sounds awesome. I'd totally see that. They could use the set up of Frankenstien's Army which would have made more sense if the protagonists were German rather than Soviets, like in that movie. Maybe similar to Castle Itter but with Frankentruppen.
You might like it, but I think the heroic Wehrmacht soldiers would not go over well in any of the countries Germany attacked. Or even in Germany.
I would note how GODZILLA MINUS ONE isn't being released anywhere in East or South Asia outside of Japan. Some people find that puzzling, but it seems pretty obvious to me. Here's a sample comment:
QuoteIf anyone is worried that GODZILLA MINUS ONE still isn't showing in HK bcuz of political reasons, pls note that it's not yet released anywhere in Asia either. Not even South Korea, Thailand, Singapore, India, etc.
It seems they're just slow in finding distributors in Asia
https://twitter.com/goofrider/status/1735607670928003180
Das Boot has entered the chat.
Besides, we know your personal bias against the Japanese, due to your heritage. Not everyone is like you.
In
Das Boot, the Wehrmacht do not have a feel-good victory in the end. It's completely the opposite. They are beaten and/or killed, and their u-boat destroyed.
Previous Godzilla movies were less controversial because they didn't feature a heroic WWII-era military. The military got their asses kicked by Godzilla. In the original 1954 movie, Godzilla was killed by a scientist who killed himself to make sure that his secret weapon died with him.
---
I agree that this has to do with my Korean heritage, but in the case of the WWII Japanese military, I think there is good reason for negative bias towards them -- and it's one largely shared by the billions of people in the countries that Japan invaded.
The population who
don't have a bias against the WWII Japanese military are from the countries with no experience or knowledge of what the Japanese military did to civilians.
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2024, 12:16:07 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 10, 2024, 09:09:31 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2024, 02:25:23 AM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 05, 2024, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 05, 2024, 12:23:01 AMSeriously, if a German movie came out about all-Aryan heroic ex-Wehrmacht in post-WW2 Germany fighting a monster and redeeming their failures in the war, how would that go over?
That's sounds awesome. I'd totally see that. They could use the set up of Frankenstien's Army which would have made more sense if the protagonists were German rather than Soviets, like in that movie. Maybe similar to Castle Itter but with Frankentruppen.
You might like it, but I think the heroic Wehrmacht soldiers would not go over well in any of the countries Germany attacked. Or even in Germany.
I would note how GODZILLA MINUS ONE isn't being released anywhere in East or South Asia outside of Japan. Some people find that puzzling, but it seems pretty obvious to me. Here's a sample comment:
QuoteIf anyone is worried that GODZILLA MINUS ONE still isn't showing in HK bcuz of political reasons, pls note that it's not yet released anywhere in Asia either. Not even South Korea, Thailand, Singapore, India, etc.
It seems they're just slow in finding distributors in Asia
https://twitter.com/goofrider/status/1735607670928003180
Das Boot has entered the chat.
Besides, we know your personal bias against the Japanese, due to your heritage. Not everyone is like you.
In Das Boot, the Wehrmacht do not have a feel-good victory in the end. It's completely the opposite. They are beaten and/or killed, and their u-boat destroyed.
Previous Godzilla movies were less controversial because they didn't feature a heroic WWII-era military. The military got their asses kicked by Godzilla. In the original 1954 movie, Godzilla was killed by a scientist who killed himself to make sure that his secret weapon died with him.
---
I agree that this has to do with my Korean heritage, but in the case of the WWII Japanese military, I think there is good reason for negative bias towards them -- and it's one largely shared by the billions of people in the countries that Japan invaded.
The population who don't have a bias against the WWII Japanese military are from the countries with no experience or knowledge of what the Japanese military did to civilians.
The Japanese military in WWII were butchers. They committed horrible acts on civilian populations and on opposing militaries. Just like the Koreans did during the Korean War. Just like the Vietnamese did during the Vietnam War. Hell, there's not a military out there that hasn't committed atrocities, including most western ones. The difference is that you leftists want to hold the entire race accountable for the actions of individuals. Did Japan, due to its culture, have a high number of individuals involved compared with other countries? Absolutely. But if every Japanese is guilty of and shares the blame for what people in WWII did, then every Korean shares blame and guilt for what happened during the Korean War. And no dodging this by trying to pivot to ideology as a determinant. You haven't offered that absolution to the Japanese, so you don't get it for Korean War crimes.
This is why I can't be a leftist. Because the basic ideological underpinning of leftism is collective guilt. I am responsible for what I do. You are responsible for what you do. Every Japanese soldier was responsible for what they did. Some (many) were monsters. Some fought honorably. But, taking a movie that rejects both the ideology that saw lives as cheap and the reverence for government and its policies and then trying to tar it with the very ideologies it is pushing back against is disingenuous at best. Funny how that word comes up again and again when talking about your posts.
Racism, sexism, and most of the other ideologies that refuse to see the individual instead of the collective are just a small step down the road from you leftists. That which you scream about most, you do so because you can easily see yourself there...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 10, 2024, 05:31:26 PM
The Japanese military in WWII were butchers. They committed horrible acts on civilian populations and on opposing militaries. Just like the Koreans did during the Korean War. Just like the Vietnamese did during the Vietnam War. Hell, there's not a military out there that hasn't committed atrocities, including most western ones. The difference is that you leftists want to hold the entire race accountable for the actions of individuals. Did Japan, due to its culture, have a high number of individuals involved compared with other countries? Absolutely. But if every Japanese is guilty of and shares the blame for what people in WWII did, then every Korean shares blame and guilt for what happened during the Korean War. And no dodging this by trying to pivot to ideology as a determinant. You haven't offered that absolution to the Japanese, so you don't get it for Korean War crimes.
I don't hold people accountable based on their race. I hold them accountable based on their current actions.
I have no problems with someone being German. I have a number of German friends. However, I would have a problem with a German who denies that the Holocaust happened, or who glamorizes Nazis - like if they made a feel-good victory movie of Wehrmacht soldier defending the Fatherland.
I have no problem with someone simply for being Japanese. However, I do have a problem with glamorizing the Imperial Japanese military - like if someone made a feel-good victory movie of Japanese soldiers getting to prove their worth.
I've watched a lot of South Korean movies about the war, and they've all been tragedies like Das Boot. There's no heroic victory in them, just like the U.S. never makes heroic feel-good Vietnam movies. If there were a movie that glamorized the Korean War, then I'd have a problem with that too.
---
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 10, 2024, 05:31:26 PM
But, taking a movie that rejects both the ideology that saw lives as cheap and the reverence for government and its policies and then trying to tar it with the very ideologies it is pushing back against is disingenuous at best.
Godzilla Minus One does not push back against the military conquests of the Empire. It portrays the officers and soldiers as good people who just needed a chance to prove themselves, and it criticizes the government for not giving their tanks enough armor or putting ejection seats in their airplanes. This is effectively saying the Imperial military just didn't have good enough weapons to do the job right.
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2024, 07:51:39 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 10, 2024, 05:31:26 PM
The Japanese military in WWII were butchers. They committed horrible acts on civilian populations and on opposing militaries. Just like the Koreans did during the Korean War. Just like the Vietnamese did during the Vietnam War. Hell, there's not a military out there that hasn't committed atrocities, including most western ones. The difference is that you leftists want to hold the entire race accountable for the actions of individuals. Did Japan, due to its culture, have a high number of individuals involved compared with other countries? Absolutely. But if every Japanese is guilty of and shares the blame for what people in WWII did, then every Korean shares blame and guilt for what happened during the Korean War. And no dodging this by trying to pivot to ideology as a determinant. You haven't offered that absolution to the Japanese, so you don't get it for Korean War crimes.
I don't hold people accountable based on their race. I hold them accountable based on their current actions.
I have no problems with someone being German. I have a number of German friends. However, I would have a problem with a German who denies that the Holocaust happened, or who glamorizes Nazis - like if they made a feel-good victory movie of Wehrmacht soldier defending the Fatherland.
I have no problem with someone simply for being Japanese. However, I do have a problem with glamorizing the Imperial Japanese military - like if someone made a feel-good victory movie of Japanese soldiers getting to prove their worth.
I've watched a lot of South Korean movies about the war, and they've all been tragedies like Das Boot. There's no heroic victory in them, just like the U.S. never makes heroic feel-good Vietnam movies. If there were a movie that glamorized the Korean War, then I'd have a problem with that too.
---
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 10, 2024, 05:31:26 PM
But, taking a movie that rejects both the ideology that saw lives as cheap and the reverence for government and its policies and then trying to tar it with the very ideologies it is pushing back against is disingenuous at best.
Godzilla Minus One does not push back against the military conquests of the Empire. It portrays the officers and soldiers as good people who just needed a chance to prove themselves, and it criticizes the government for not giving their tanks enough armor or putting ejection seats in their airplanes. This is effectively saying the Imperial military just didn't have good enough weapons to do the job right.
There you go, being disingenuous again. The movie states very clearly that the problem was Japanese culture not valuing human life (those words are verbatum). Ejection seats are an example, not presented as the problem. And nowhere does the movie even imply that Japan would have won the war under any circumstances. Once again, your bias shows itself...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 10, 2024, 09:16:12 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2024, 07:51:39 PM
Godzilla Minus One does not push back against the military conquests of the Empire. It portrays the officers and soldiers as good people who just needed a chance to prove themselves, and it criticizes the government for not giving their tanks enough armor or putting ejection seats in their airplanes. This is effectively saying the Imperial military just didn't have good enough weapons to do the job right.
There you go, being disingenuous again. The movie states very clearly that the problem was Japanese culture not valuing human life (those words are verbatum). Ejection seats are an example, not presented as the problem. And nowhere does the movie even imply that Japan would have won the war under any circumstances. Once again, your bias shows itself...
For reference, here's the quote of the English translation. I'm assuming for now that the translation is accurate.
QuoteCome to think of it this country has treated life far too cheaply. Poorly armored tanks. Poor supply chains resulting in half of all deaths from starvation and disease. Fighter planes built without ejection seats and finally, kamikaze and suicide attacks. That's why this time I'd take pride in a citizen led effort that sacrifices no lives at all! This next battle is not one waged to the death, but a battle to live for the future.
There are four examples of how the country has treated life too cheaply - and all four examples are about the lives of Japanese soldiers.
Suppose I were to say, "The Nazi government treated life too cheaply. Just think about how they didn't respect the lives of their U-boat crews enough to install more safety features to protect them." This conveys that the people to be worried about were the poor U-boat crews. And saying that speaks volumes about the criticism being expressed.
You might not see it that way, but I am saying that it would be taken that way by most people in the countries Japan invaded, regardless of whether they were left-wing or right-wing.
I watched the movie over the last two nights. Really liked it, will buy it when it comes out on disc.
I thought they did a good job capturing the time period.
Point of historical trivia: The theater that Gojira destroys on his first romp through Ginza was a real world landmark, one of the few significant buildings in Tokyo that survived the Allied firebombing during the war.
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2024, 10:20:21 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on January 10, 2024, 09:16:12 PMQuote from: jhkim on January 10, 2024, 07:51:39 PMGodzilla Minus One does not push back against the military conquests of the Empire. It portrays the officers and soldiers as good people who just needed a chance to prove themselves, and it criticizes the government for not giving their tanks enough armor or putting ejection seats in their airplanes. This is effectively saying the Imperial military just didn't have good enough weapons to do the job right.
There you go, being disingenuous again. The movie states very clearly that the problem was Japanese culture not valuing human life (those words are verbatum). Ejection seats are an example, not presented as the problem. And nowhere does the movie even imply that Japan would have won the war under any circumstances. Once again, your bias shows itself...
For reference, here's the quote of the English translation. I'm assuming for now that the translation is accurate.
QuoteCome to think of it this country has treated life far too cheaply. Poorly armored tanks. Poor supply chains resulting in half of all deaths from starvation and disease. Fighter planes built without ejection seats and finally, kamikaze and suicide attacks. That's why this time I'd take pride in a citizen led effort that sacrifices no lives at all! This next battle is not one waged to the death, but a battle to live for the future.
There are four examples of how the country has treated life too cheaply - and all four examples are about the lives of Japanese soldiers.
Suppose I were to say, "The Nazi government treated life too cheaply. Just think about how they didn't respect the lives of their U-boat crews enough to install more safety features to protect them." This conveys that the people to be worried about were the poor U-boat crews. And saying that speaks volumes about the criticism being expressed.
You might not see it that way, but I am saying that it would be taken that way by most people in the countries Japan invaded, regardless of whether they were left-wing or right-wing.
There you again derailing threads.
So you think that a Japanese person from the time period should think and talk like some modern seattleite. Because to you "everything is political" ergo the people who wrote the movie should make the characters think and talk in ways you approve of or else they are istophobes.
Don't bother answering, I'm ignoring anything else you have to say in this thread.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 06, 2024, 03:07:16 PMSo you think that a Japanese person from the time period should think and talk like some modern seattleite. Because to you "everything is political" ergo the people who wrote the movie should make the characters think and talk in ways you approve of or else they are istophobes.
Don't bother answering, I'm ignoring anything else you have to say in this thread.
For anyone else who is curious about this,
There is a massive difference between a
movie about nazis and a
nazi movie. I have no problems whatsoever with the vast majority of movies about nazis, including those made in postwar Germany like
Das Boot. They might portray the soldiers of Nazi Germany as human, but still portray their beliefs and goals more-or-less accurately. That means that the nazis come across as despicable to those with modern sensibilities.
Das Boot isn't a heroic, feel-good movie where you cheer for the soldiers of Nazi Germany. You might humanize them, but it's clear that they aren't the good guys of the war.
I'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.
Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 12:47:56 AMQuote from: GeekyBugle on June 06, 2024, 03:07:16 PMSo you think that a Japanese person from the time period should think and talk like some modern seattleite. Because to you "everything is political" ergo the people who wrote the movie should make the characters think and talk in ways you approve of or else they are istophobes.
Don't bother answering, I'm ignoring anything else you have to say in this thread.
For anyone else who is curious about this,
There is a massive difference between a movie about nazis and a nazi movie. I have no problems whatsoever with the vast majority of movies about nazis, including those made in postwar Germany like Das Boot. They might portray the soldiers of Nazi Germany as human, but still portray their beliefs and goals more-or-less accurately. That means that the nazis come across as despicable to those with modern sensibilities.
Das Boot isn't a heroic, feel-good movie where you cheer for the soldiers of Nazi Germany. You might humanize them, but it's clear that they aren't the good guys of the war.
I'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.
Except Gozilla Minus One doesn't take place during the war. These aren't imperial Japanese soldiers, they are former soldiers. So, by your standards, no movie could ever show Germans in a positive light, especially if those men fought in WW2. Which is stupid (and totally based in your personal racist biases). It's like refusing to buy a Mitsubishi because they built planes during the war (and not because they are generally crap cars).
Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 12:47:56 AMI'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.
This isn't a movie about the Imperial Japanese military during WWII
you disingenuous horse's ass. It's set in 1947
after the fall of Imperial Japan. This is not a war movie. It's a kaiju movie.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 09:16:29 AMQuote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 12:47:56 AMDas Boot isn't a heroic, feel-good movie where you cheer for the soldiers of Nazi Germany. You might humanize them, but it's clear that they aren't the good guys of the war.
I'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.
Except Gozilla Minus One doesn't take place during the war. These aren't imperial Japanese soldiers, they are former soldiers. So, by your standards, no movie could ever show Germans in a positive light, especially if those men fought in WW2. Which is stupid (and totally based in your personal racist biases). It's like refusing to buy a Mitsubishi because they built planes during the war (and not because they are generally crap cars).
I have no problem with portraying German WW2 soldiers in a positive light --
IF they are shown to reject nazism and the horrors that they inflicted in the war. For example,
Valkyrie portrays heroic German military who try to kill Hitler. If German soldiers are still fine with nazism and just regret that they lost because of bad equipment, then they shouldn't be portrayed as good guys.
Redemption depends on taking responsibility.
Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 10:59:04 AMQuote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 09:16:29 AMQuote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 12:47:56 AMDas Boot isn't a heroic, feel-good movie where you cheer for the soldiers of Nazi Germany. You might humanize them, but it's clear that they aren't the good guys of the war.
I'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.
Except Gozilla Minus One doesn't take place during the war. These aren't imperial Japanese soldiers, they are former soldiers. So, by your standards, no movie could ever show Germans in a positive light, especially if those men fought in WW2. Which is stupid (and totally based in your personal racist biases). It's like refusing to buy a Mitsubishi because they built planes during the war (and not because they are generally crap cars).
I have no problem with portraying German WW2 soldiers in a positive light -- IF they are shown to reject nazism and the horrors that they inflicted in the war. For example, Valkyrie portrays heroic German military who try to kill Hitler. If German soldiers are still fine with nazism and just regret that they lost because of bad equipment, then they shouldn't be portrayed as good guys.
Redemption depends on taking responsibility.
Except, you have already rejected the "taking responsibility" because you don't find the recognition of devaluing of life to be groveling enough. Of course, I reject your moral authority to judge what is or isn't "taking responsibility," anyway. Do you demand every movie showing Germans that was made in the 1950s to have a groveling apology for Nazism? I think not.
See, when I accuse you of racism, I'm not just hurling invective (like the left odes). I mean it as an objective observation, backed up with facts. Objectively speaking, one sign of racism is when you treat two groups differently, just because of the race they fall under. And you are guilt of this in spades!
What was the great crime of the Japanese? An institutional policy that led to them treating their opponents as less than human. The Japanese soldiers tortured, raped, and butchered enemy soldiers and civilians because it was their social and governmental policy. Now, this is evil, and we hung a bunch of the bastards after the war for it. Not enough, as I'm sure there were Japanese soldiers who didn't face enough punishment, just like there were Japanese soldiers who didn't engage in barbarity either. Not being a racist collectivist, I hold individuals accountable for their actions, even though we can recognize that their governmental policy was evil.
Well, you don't other groups to an equal standard, simply because of their race. That's racist. Case in point: you just ran a Mayan-themed campaign for a long time. The Mayans systematically butchered their conquered peoples and their enemies for centuries. Michael Harner, an archaeologist studying this since the 70s, estimated that during the late 15th century, the Mayans may have sacrificed up to 250,000 people per year (close to 1% of the population). How can you glorify this culture by making it the basis for your roleplaying game? How can you overlook a butchery that could number as many as the Rape of Nanking
every year? What's next, you will set your campaign as happy guards in Nazi death camps?
Where are the apologies from the Mayans (yes, I know, but their descendants aren't particularly upset, either)? Did you make the evil of the sacrifices an important part of your game (I know the answer to this, too, as you've already said previously, you just ignored it)? No, you just white-washed this entire evil in order to entertain yourself. Yet you hold the Japanese to a higher standard, because of their (and your) race.
So get off your moral high horse! Your use of the Mayans is even more despicable than
Godzilla Minus One's treatment of the post-war period. We all know that leftists (not being the brightest folks out there) need to easily categorize people into oppressor/oppressed in order to do their moral calculus. So Japanese = oppressor, Mayan = oppressed (by
white colonizers) in your simplistic worldview. But if you actually held the morals you declare so strongly against the Japanese, you could never game in a Mayan-themed setting! Of course, as we all know, leftists don't have morals, just tactics...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 11:42:13 AMQuote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 10:59:04 AMQuote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 09:16:29 AMQuote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 12:47:56 AMDas Boot isn't a heroic, feel-good movie where you cheer for the soldiers of Nazi Germany. You might humanize them, but it's clear that they aren't the good guys of the war.
I'm saying that I'd prefer that imperial Japanese military should be portrayed similar to the soldiers of Nazi Germany are in movies. I think that's closer to real history than Godzilla Minus One is.
Except Gozilla Minus One doesn't take place during the war. These aren't imperial Japanese soldiers, they are former soldiers. So, by your standards, no movie could ever show Germans in a positive light, especially if those men fought in WW2. Which is stupid (and totally based in your personal racist biases). It's like refusing to buy a Mitsubishi because they built planes during the war (and not because they are generally crap cars).
I have no problem with portraying German WW2 soldiers in a positive light -- IF they are shown to reject nazism and the horrors that they inflicted in the war. For example, Valkyrie portrays heroic German military who try to kill Hitler. If German soldiers are still fine with nazism and just regret that they lost because of bad equipment, then they shouldn't be portrayed as good guys.
Redemption depends on taking responsibility.
Except, you have already rejected the "taking responsibility" because you don't find the recognition of devaluing of life to be groveling enough. Of course, I reject your moral authority to judge what is or isn't "taking responsibility," anyway. Do you demand every movie showing Germans that was made in the 1950s to have a groveling apology for Nazism? I think not.
See, when I accuse you of racism, I'm not just hurling invective (like the left odes). I mean it as an objective observation, backed up with facts. Objectively speaking, one sign of racism is when you treat two groups differently, just because of the race they fall under. And you are guilt of this in spades!
What was the great crime of the Japanese? An institutional policy that led to them treating their opponents as less than human. The Japanese soldiers tortured, raped, and butchered enemy soldiers and civilians because it was their social and governmental policy. Now, this is evil, and we hung a bunch of the bastards after the war for it. Not enough, as I'm sure there were Japanese soldiers who didn't face enough punishment, just like there were Japanese soldiers who didn't engage in barbarity either. Not being a racist collectivist, I hold individuals accountable for their actions, even though we can recognize that their governmental policy was evil.
Well, you don't other groups to an equal standard, simply because of their race. That's racist. Case in point: you just ran a Mayan-themed campaign for a long time. The Mayans systematically butchered their conquered peoples and their enemies for centuries. Michael Harner, an archaeologist studying this since the 70s, estimated that during the late 15th century, the Mayans may have sacrificed up to 250,000 people per year (close to 1% of the population). How can you glorify this culture by making it the basis for your roleplaying game? How can you overlook a butchery that could number as many as the Rape of Nanking every year? What's next, you will set your campaign as happy guards in Nazi death camps?
Where are the apologies from the Mayans (yes, I know, but their descendants aren't particularly upset, either)? Did you make the evil of the sacrifices an important part of your game (I know the answer to this, too, as you've already said previously, you just ignored it)? No, you just white-washed this entire evil in order to entertain yourself. Yet you hold the Japanese to a higher standard, because of their (and your) race.
So get off your moral high horse! Your use of the Mayans is even more despicable than Godzilla Minus One's treatment of the post-war period. We all know that leftists (not being the brightest folks out there) need to easily categorize people into oppressor/oppressed in order to do their moral calculus. So Japanese = oppressor, Mayan = oppressed (by white colonizers) in your simplistic worldview. But if you actually held the morals you declare so strongly against the Japanese, you could never game in a Mayan-themed setting! Of course, as we all know, leftists don't have morals, just tactics...
Speaking as a proud Maya/Spaniard mongrel:
Why should I feel shame for stuff done hundreds of years before my Mayan Grandma was born?
Why should I feel shame for stuff done hundreds of years before ANY of my 3 Spanish Grandparents came to México escaping the fucking Spanish Commies?
That's leftist thinking.
No one carries any guilt done by people that happen to look like him, even if they are their ancestors.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 07, 2024, 12:31:50 PMSpeaking as a proud Maya/Spaniard mongrel:
Why should I feel shame for stuff done hundreds of years before my Mayan Grandma was born?
Why should I feel shame for stuff done hundreds of years before ANY of my 3 Spanish Grandparents came to México escaping the fucking Spanish Commies?
That's leftist thinking.
No one carries any guilt done by people that happen to look like him, even if they are their ancestors.
That's why I'm pointing it out. Jhkim is attacking the movie because no one in it apologized
to the extent he feels necessary for Japan's conduct in the war. He's not holding the Mayans (and their descendants) to the same standard, because he's racist against Japanese. I'm with you, but I'm just holding him to his own "principles"...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 01:17:19 PMJhkim is attacking the movie because no one in it apologized to the extent he feels necessary for Japan's conduct in the war.
Not only that, but Toho has already made multiple movies where Godzilla is sent to punish Japan for their behavior in WW2 or, in the case of GMK, he was the living embodiment of the spirits of those Japan killed. Toho doesn't need to keep doing that over and over again for all eternity.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 07, 2024, 02:31:12 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 01:17:19 PMJhkim is attacking the movie because no one in it apologized to the extent he feels necessary for Japan's conduct in the war.
Not only that, but Toho has already made multiple movies where Godzilla is sent to punish Japan for their behavior in WW2 or, in the case of GMK, he was the living embodiment of the spirits of those Japan killed. Toho doesn't need to keep doing that over and over again for all eternity.
You don't understand leftist thinking, Japan and it's people need to live postrated in shame for ever and to start by apologizing for the war crimes they didn't commit, much like Germany.
Thjey need to hate themselves so much and have so much guilt they'll embrace the destruction of their culture, country and ethnicity by "Teh Diversity!" tm
It's not a WWII movie. It doesn't depict events during WWII. It's about the Japanese military fighting a giant monster and takes place after the war. Comparing it to a WWII movie like Das Boot is highly disingenuous in the first place.
Quote from: yosemitemike on June 07, 2024, 08:24:36 PMIt's not a WWII movie. It doesn't depict events during WWII. It's about the Japanese military fighting a giant monster and takes place after the war. Comparing it to a WWII movie like Das Boot is highly disingenuous in the first place.
If you know of any non-war films where the protagonists are German soldiers who fought for the nazis, I'd welcome the better parallels.
As far as I know, there are no German films where nazi soldiers are heroes - even non-war films set just after the war's end. That's because the Germans turned against nazism after the war, and the nazi-era military were viewed and portrayed negatively by post-war Germans.
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Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 11:42:13 AMCase in point: you just ran a Mayan-themed campaign for a long time. The Mayans systematically butchered their conquered peoples and their enemies for centuries. Michael Harner, an archaeologist studying this since the 70s, estimated that during the late 15th century, the Mayans may have sacrificed up to 250,000 people per year (close to 1% of the population). How can you glorify this culture by making it the basis for your roleplaying game? How can you overlook a butchery that could number as many as the Rape of Nanking every year? What's next, you will set your campaign as happy guards in Nazi death camps?
A few comments about this:
1) Michael Harner said this about the
Aztecs, not the Mayans. (ref) (https://www.nytimes.com/1977/02/19/archives/aztec-sacrifices-laid-to-hunger-not-just-religion.html)
2) I never ran either a Mayan-themed campaign or an Aztec-themed campaign. I did run an Incan-themed campaign, but it is explicitly
fantasy and not at all historical. What I say about this in the setting doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19ZadR7QUcyFsZ7u5x1MukSgY2cA7_CmZog7MgrxcxCU/edit):
QuoteThe Solar Empire is inspired by the real-world Incan Empire. However, it is roughly as close to real medieval history as typical D&D or Tolkien's Middle Earth -- which is to say, not close at all. The setting intentionally draws on diverse familiar fantasy elements like elves, dwarves, genies, and dragons - but adapting them into Andean environments and cultures.
Depictions of historical Aztecs should certainly depict and comment on their sacrifices. As far as I've seen, basically every depiction of historical Aztecs has commented on their sacrifices, and it's usually been a major theme.
3) I have expressed no problems with having either Japanese-themed or German-themed fantasy settings and stories. The specific situation I am talking about is depiction of
soldiers who fought in WWII, not a country in general or a race in general.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 07, 2024, 11:42:13 AMWhat was the great crime of the Japanese? An institutional policy that led to them treating their opponents as less than human. The Japanese soldiers tortured, raped, and butchered enemy soldiers and civilians because it was their social and governmental policy. Now, this is evil, and we hung a bunch of the bastards after the war for it. Not enough, as I'm sure there were Japanese soldiers who didn't face enough punishment, just like there were Japanese soldiers who didn't engage in barbarity either. Not being a racist collectivist, I hold individuals accountable for their actions, even though we can recognize that their governmental policy was evil.
So would you say that there is nothing wrong with being a nazi soldier, as long as that nazi soldier wasn't personally involved in war crimes? Would you be fine with a feel-good movie about heroic, good-hearted nazi soldiers?
I have no problems with Germany as a country or as an ethnicity, or the broader German culture. But specifically
the Nazi regime and its military, who invaded their neighbors and conducted the Holocaust? Yes, I have a problem with them - not just a few of the nazis as bad individuals, but the nazi movement as a whole.
And yes, I feel the same way about the Imperial Japanese. It was not just a few bad eggs, but a corrupt and brutal system.
Quote from: jhkim on June 07, 2024, 11:35:24 PMIf you know of any non-war films where the protagonists are German soldiers who fought for the nazis, I'd welcome the better parallels.
There are no comparable movies depicting a giant monster attacking post-war Germany. Stop trying to draw parallels with the wartime depiction of Nazis. Stop mentioning Nazis since there are none in this movie and it has nothing to do with that. It's disingenuous and manipulative. Talk about what this movie actually is and stop making these disingenuous comparisons.
Historically speaking, this movie is set during the period in which Douglas MacArthur is the ruler of Japan, and the country is being forced to make a hard cultural break with the mindset and ideology of Imperial Japan. This cultural break was, in the long run, successful. Modern Japanese do not feel any kinship with the culture and ideology of Imperial Japan, and it is not uncommon to for modern Japanese to use the Imperial Japanese as outright villains in historical fiction. Calls to reinstate the ideology of Imperial Japan are met with ridicule.
The correct historical attitude of the Japanese at this time period is that they have turned their back on Imperial Japan, and in doing so, shed the responsibility for the war crimes Imperial Japan committed.
Imperial Japan is literally a different country to them.
I thank that is implied, but not implicitly discussed.
And yes, I am aware that the Chinese and Koreans from the war generation DO NOT absolve modern day Japan of its crimes.
I really love this movie, watched it with my wife in the theater. Watched it again recently on netflix, still really good. Man its like the best godzilla movie ever.
The DVD is due to arrive on Tuesday. I'm very much anticipating its arrival.
It's the first Godzilla movie in decades that makes the viewers actually truly care about the human cast.