Quote from: Edsan;223062Good grief Jack! Can such an abomination actually exist? :eek:
Are you sure you aren't painting them a few shades of darker than they really where?

Okay, I'll admit it.  Some of the women I'm thinking of I only know online, and I'm just assuming their fat.  Seriously, when you say "women gamers" the first thing I think of is a fat socially maladjusted feminist chick who thinks she's a lot smarter than she is.  I've met six or seven chicks just like that, and way more online that I suspect are hideous cow monsters IRL.

But I've met some gamer chicks who were just dippy.  You know, played elves named "Sunshine" and did the sort of silly "in-character" things that give elves such a bad name.  Kender were invented for this type of player.  I've met like four chicks who played like that out of the dozen or so chicks I've played with.  I guess I can't really fault them, and I don't mind DMing that so much, but that's the sort of player I'd only want around if I already had a solid core four.  They make good fifth wheels, but god help you if you have to rely on a player liek that.  I've met a few dudes who play like that too, but a way smaller ration (maybe 4 out of 100).  These chicks can be deadly to a campaign if they're single or dating someone in the group.  The Dragonlance game I played in for three years blew up because of relationship crap sparked by a dippy female player sleeping with the DM.

And yeah, out of the dozen or so women I've gamed with, there's only one who I thought wasn't a drag on the game and the group dynamic.  She was married to another dude in the group.

I mostly just don't think normal well-adjusted women are attracted to the style of gaming support by most of the industry.  I don't think they get much out of it.

Quote from: Haffrung;223083D&D was inspired by Tolkien, Howard, Lieber, and other writers who were themselves harkening back to earlier cultural traditions. To change those cultures and make them multi-ethnic socieites where the captain of the guard was as likely to be a woman as a man would be to invent something new - and something incongruous to those familiar with the myths and sagas they drew on.

And isn't that what we gamers are all about, inventing new worlds to do cool stuff in?

I think those traditions are great and I rely on them a lot in my own world creation.  I also enjoy consuming them.  But I am open as well to them being changed in as many ways as possible.  That's what I like about gaming, that we can do whatever we want with these traditions, rather than being locked in.

So when I see that kind of cultural change encouraged in the text or art of a game book, I support it.

QuoteOriginally Posted by monte cook
You're talking about a game where you pretend to be elves, halflings, or other things that are different from you, is it so hard to believe that the people who engage in this hobby might be able to see beyond themselves?

Sorry, but this comment is pretty funny. Is this the same WotC that started portraying all PCs as 16 to 24-year-old hipsters? If WotC really thought its customers were keen on seeing beyond themselves, they wouldn't have excised D&D's artwork of all depictions of grizzled, middle-aged warriors and filthy peasants. A spunky, 20ish black female ranger with spiky hair is far more likely to fall within the comfort zone of WotC's target market than a bearded, flea-bitten, middle-aged knight. Pushing the comfort zone my ass.

Quote from: HaffrungIf there were African authors who drew on their own folklore to write pulp novels, I wouldn't condemn them for using black protagonists. Artists shouldn't be under any responsibility to model their fantasy settings on modern, utopian notions of gender and culture diversity.

I agree.  Although if you want to write a setting that's more inclusive (whether you think that'll create a more fun gaming environment, be better for sales, or whatever other reasons you might have) there's also nothing wrong with having a mix of cultures and ethnicities set in a fantasy world based primarily on one real-world time + place (eg. Medieval Europe).  If you can accept Goblins and Magic, then why not Sir N'Longa, Knight of the Realm?

I think there's room for both approaches.

Even if you want to have a more "traditional" setting, I still    think there's plenty of room for lots of different characters from a variety of backgrounds.  Some Movies / TV shows I like that are good examples of that include:

Manni from Brotherhood of the Wolf
Chon Wang from Shanghai Noon
Snails and Norda from Dungeons & Dragons
Nasir from Robin of Sherwood

Quote from: The_Shadow;222733So why are gamers at the forefront of feminist practice in this regard?

Because feminized metro-swine think it will get them laid.

The joke is on them because the only women I have ever seen impressed by this "feminist practice" were so hideous that fucking them would be a science experiment or a gang initiation.   Maybe SAN loss porn is more popular than I imagine.

Video games have far more female players and they don't stoop to this crap.  In fact, video games go gonzo with big tits and skirt nudity rules with a razor edge.   Adolescent male fantasy sells billions, but WotC is being strangled by Gloria Steinem cultists.   I fully expect to see S/he and S/him in D&D 5e.

Bah this argument annoys me...

'They' is becoming the acceptable gender neutral term and will likely end up being formalised at some point, amongst others. What annoys me is the idea that using the feminine form is somehow inclusive. Chopping and changing is just disjointed, but using woman/her/she is gender exclusive while, strictly speaking, he/him/man is actually inclusive, not exclusive. It's males who lack a gender specific descriptor and should be up in arms about it if anything.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223065Please.  Red Sonya was practically Conan in drag.

And isn't the removal of all sexual identity the end result of feminist thought? Shouldn't therefore all women effectively be Conan in drag?

Or is it perhaps only that the male should be removed completely, leaving the world without anyone vaguely Conan at all?

Quote from: gleichman;223102And isn't the removal of all sexual identity the end result of feminist thought?

Not to my knowledge, though that appears to be what you wish to believe. Or are you just trying to be provocative?

Bang away, Brian.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;223106Not to my knowledge, though that appears to be what you wish to believe.

You're the one that rejected Sonya, so I assume you had a reason. Why? What is the goal that caused your rejection- to your knowledge of course?

Quote from: Spinachcat;223097In fact, video games go gonzo with big tits and skirt nudity rules with a razor edge.   Adolescent male fantasy sells billions, but WotC is being strangled by Gloria Steinem cultists.

Holy jumpin' shit Spinachcat!

That's the most solid argument I have seen on this whole thread. It completely defuses any Monte-Cookian arguments about the "righteousness" of what they are doing in their approach to art in D&D. If anything Cook's mindset, as far as art and white male bashing goes, is actually harmful to the industry.

Quote from: Edsan;223108If anything Cook's mindset, as far as art and white male bashing goes, is actually harmful to the industry.

To be honest, I think harm to current industry is actually the goal. The PC movement is first and foremost about tearing things down. The pipedream is that upon the rubble they feel they can build something better.

Quote from: gleichman;223111To be honest, I think harm to current industry is actually the goal. The PC movement is first and foremost about tearing things down. The pipedream is that upon the rubble they feel they can build something better.

Them and the muslims.

Quote from: walkerp;223113Them and the muslims.

I'm getting tried of the racism card Walker. It suits you (who wishes the death of all a mankind) better than I.

Quote from: gleichman;223116I'm getting tried of the racism card Walker. It suits you (who wishes the death of all a mankind) better than I.

Do you want an apology?

I'm a specist, not a racist, btw.  A self-loathing one.

This explains why no one buys Monte Cook's games.

No one but FAT CHICKS WHO WISH THE DEATH OF ALL MANKIND that is!





(but oh no, that's 19 out of 20 women gamers...)