Quote from: GunslingerIf your offended by how people perceive your games or how you play them, I'd probably think you're an insecure little meat muppet.   I got over that problem in high school.

Wow.  You guys are sooooooo mature.

See, in mature discussion between acquaintances those involved endeavor not to insult or offend. It's a two way street. When both attempt to neither imply nor infer offensive or insulting things, polite, even reasoned, discussion is possible. However, when listener tells speaker "I'm sorry, did you just say X? That might be seen as offensive," and the speaker's response is "Hey, if you don't like it, it's your problem you insecure little meat puppet," dialog is rarely facilitated.

And just to be clear, I'm not offended by how people perceive my games or how I play them. I tend to be concerned about the implications that come along for the ride.

And by the way, I think you meant to say infer.  When the listener adds meaning not explicitly stated, as I think you're asserting, the listener infers.

Quote from: James J SkachHowever, when listener tells speaker "I'm sorry, did you just say X? That might be seen as offensive," and the speaker's response is "Hey, if you don't like it, it's your problem you insecure little meat puppet," dialog is rarely facilitated

It sure would be nice if you followed your own model of polite discourse.  I can't remember hearing you say "I'm sorry" or "might".  Good start, though, at least that you recognize polite discourse when telling others how to act.

Quote from: walkerpIt sure would be nice if you followed your own model of polite discourse.  I can't remember hearing you say "I'm sorry" or "might".  Good start, though, at least that you recognize polite discourse when telling others how to act.

I've had plenty of posts here where I said that. In the recent Truth About Players thread (IIRC) I went out of my way to try to give the person to whom I was speaking the chance to clarify. I think I might have used this very formulation. I often use the "Can you see how someone might get offended by that?" approach.

I might have even said something similar to you, even after your less than grand entrance.

And I know for a fact I've apologized - even using "I'm sorry," when I was wrong.

But you go ahead and think otherwise...and hold your little grudge....

Quote from: James J SkachSee, in mature discussion between acquaintances those involved endeavor not to insult or offend. It's a two way street. When both attempt to neither imply nor infer offensive or insulting things, polite, even reasoned, discussion is possible. However, when listener tells speaker "I'm sorry, did you just say X? That might be seen as offensive," and the speaker's response is "Hey, if you don't like it, it's your problem you insecure little meat puppet," dialog is rarely facilitated.

And just to be clear, I'm not offended by how people perceive my games or how I play them. I tend to be concerned about the implications that come along for the ride.

No, it's not saying something offensive to the person.  It's being offensive about something the person feels strongly associated with that they take personal.  It's really no different than the association that some sports fans have with their favorite teams or someone and their favorite model of car.  People are usually talking from the limited perspective of their personal experience.  Let it go, they're not talking about you just because you happen to be a Jeep owner, or a Raiders fan, or a D&D player, etc...  unless of course you happen to be the particular type of person they're talking about.  Then by all means go all sorts of internet fury on them.  

QuoteAnd by the way, I think you meant to say infer.  When the listener adds meaning not explicitly stated, as I think you're asserting, the listener infers.

I think you're correct.

Hi, James!

Quote from: James J SkachI think the entire thing would have been served better by saying something like "There are lots of different ways people play these things we call RPG's.  I like this way, and have found it difficult to find satisfaction using the existing approaches and methods.  If you like to play this way too, let's talk about it." But that would not have differentiated the market enough for the inevitable follow-on sales.

That's a question of ulterior motive I'm not inclined to speculate on. Granted, Idon't have the distaste for the theory that many here do, so I'm naturally drawn less toward finding uncharitable motives. But it also doesn't match with my impression from internet interaction with a lot of Forge personages. So there ya go.

Quote from: James J SkachSee above - specifically that no matter how many pretty words you put around it, the purpose of categories is to categorize. In this case, a subjective categorization. And I don't think you're crazy for wanting to find a way to enhance your play, or even (much to Stuarts and, to some extent, my chagrin) a vocabulary to discuss it. Why it requires a Grand Theory of Everything, and why so many pieces of that Grand Theory of Everything seem to be tailored/chosen to differentiate through exclusion and derision, I have no idea.  I speculate it's marketing, but that's just speculation.

I'm not personally concerned with whether it's a Grand Theory of Everything, or whether it works as such (there was a flush of excitement when I first encountered it some three years ago,but that's long since worn off). I'm concerned with its utility for me personally, and since that utility is more than zero, I'm not inclined to renounce the whole thing as J suggests.

Quote from: James J SkachI don't think anyone has suggested you stop playing the way you do. Perhaps people desire an end to the pretension that underlies the language and theory - particularly when it's the way many people played for a long time before the term "Bang" (or whatever) was used to describe it.

"Doing things that help me enjoy roleplaying" includes not just play, but the assimilation of new techniques and playing styles, from (including but not limited to) places like the Forge. And yeah, J Arcane is pretty much saying, "stop doing that." Or at least, "stop doing that around me."

And when "doing it around me" includes "mention it on an internet forum I frequent," that's just asinine. And elitest. And dare I say it, a personal attack.

I know J isn't everyone, but that's what I was responding to.

Peace,
-Joel

Quote from: walkerpIt sure would be nice if you followed your own model of polite discourse.  I can't remember hearing you say "I'm sorry" or "might".  Good start, though, at least that you recognize polite discourse when telling others how to act.

Yeah, James is actually being a stand-up guy in these conversations. Piling on him isn't helping anything.

Peace,
-Joel

Quote from: GunslingerPlay not game.  D&D, the game, can satisfy multiple agendas.  The people playing D&D decide how they are going to play to satisfy their agendas, hence people play D&D differently.  It's usually best to play with folks that have a pretty similar agendas to yours however you choose to describe it.  D&D does NOT satisfy everyones agendas.

Couldn't've said it better myself.

Peace,
-Joel

Quote from: MelinglorYeah, James is actually being a stand-up guy in these conversations. Piling on him isn't helping anything.

Well he's either been taken over by some other entity or started a new pharmaceutical regime, because the Skach I know and hate was much more like J Arcane in his debating style.  I do agree that his behaviour here has been civilized and polite.  I hope it remains like that.

Wow....hate....

Revenge!

Quote"Doing things that help me enjoy roleplaying" includes not just play, but the assimilation of new techniques and playing styles, from (including but not limited to) places like the Forge. And yeah, J Arcane is pretty much saying, "stop doing that." Or at least, "stop doing that around me."

So how many boards is enough for you guys?  Huh?  Not happy with the ones you've already got to yourselves, or the ones you've managed to pollute, you've got to come here and do your level best to make another home for such idiocy?  

If you're really just happy to do your own thing, and leave everyone alone, then whyt are so many of you so determined to ensure you've got your messengers implanted in every fucking RPG board on the planet, even one as openly hostile to such malarkey as this one?

You've got the Forge, you've got Story Games and Lumpley's and Baker's forums.  You managed to turn RPGnet into a place where daring criticize the Forge is treated as trolling, and even bringing up some of Edwards' more odious opinions is actually topic non grata and can net a ban.  

So how much is enough for you people?  Am I going to be stuck ditching one site after another because it gets inundated with garbage ideas that are nothing more than veiled hostility towards me and mine?  I'd like to think such a thing isn't an inevitability, but you guys sure have been trying your level best to prove me wrong, and the last big wave ended in this site's traffic being cut by half and my rrecent visits a lot shorter than they used to be.  

Why can't you just fuck off back to your already copious possible corners to the web, where you can all continue to nurse your egos anf feel as self-important as you want, without anyone caring at all, and even cheering you on?

Quote from: J ArcaneSo how many boards is enough for you guys?  Huh?  Not happy with the ones you've already got to yourselves, or the ones you've managed to pollute, you've got to come here and do your level best to make another home for such idiocy?

So it all comes down to "get the fuck out." Typical.

There is no "you guys." I'm an internet poster with my own mind, and I call this forum home, among others. Granted, it's becoming more that kind of "home"that you come back to every few weeks to do your laundry or check your messages, but don't stay too long because you get hassled about your choice of friends or hobbies, but hey! You go right on whining about how you're being "driven out" of your internet haunts because I happen tothink "Bang" is a useful term. :melodramatic:

I post here because I find it vaulable. I post in rough proportion to the value I find. I particularly post when I feel (or hope) this board's unique mishmash of perspectives will be more useful than not. Like my D&D play reports. If you got a problem with that, well. . .I repeat: :melodramatic:

Peace,
-Joel

QuoteSo it all comes down to "get the fuck out." Typical.

If you find such responses "typical" of places you frequent, perhaps you should consider whether it is in fact you that's the problem, or your ideology.

Quote from: walkerpIt sure would be nice if you followed your own model of polite discourse.

And the same could be said of your sorry ass.

Quote from: J ArcaneIf you find such responses "typical" of places you frequent, perhaps you should consider whether it is in fact you that's the problem, or your ideology.

No, I meant typical of you, and a couple of other folks around here.

Quote from: MelinglorNo, I meant typical of you, and a couple of other folks around here.

Any derision and desire for your vacancy was earned by your own actions and the actions of your ideological compatriots.  

My posting record speaks to that.