TheRPGSite

Who will probably shortly be banned from TBP:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=7099576&posted=1#post7099576

It really didn't occur to me anyone wouldn't realise I was joking...

Quote from: BalbinusWho will probably shortly be banned from TBP:

Um, no.

Why should you get banned, Balbinus?

It was just a joke, and a little misunderstanding.

Quote from: ClaudiusWhy should you get banned, Balbinus?

It was just a joke, and a little misunderstanding.

Thankfully KF stepped in, I just had this vision of triggering some awful inter-board flamewar.

It seemed more apposite to discuss it here rather than there, especially since Off Topic is essentially the rpg.net discussion forum hereabouts.

Somehow, I feel that cool heads will prevail, and nothing bad will sprout of this. :)

And besides, I found it funny. ;)

Man.  I thought that pile of severed human baby heads in your backyard was bad, but joking about GNS????  Good God!

Quote from: ClaudiusSomehow, I feel that cool heads will prevail, and nothing bad will sprout of this. :)

And besides, I found it funny. ;)

It took me a while to realise Jocelyn was serious, I wasn't sure at first and I didn't want to kill the thread with an apology.

Then I realised that he was and had really misread me, and I genuinely had horrible visions of some dreadful flamewar leading to many flameouts and bannings following which some mod would look around and say "hey, we've lost half the board, who started this shitstorm?"

That's the thing with rpg.net, there are so many posters there that someone is always bound not to get the context, hence I guess the need for the moderation.

See, this is why I'm never honest about how crappy my gaming style is. IT's probably worse than anything GNS has to offer, but I can't understand GNS enough to be sure.

Just lie and tell everyone you're the greatest. That's how forums work. When you screw up and try to be truthful, even if humorous, people don't know how to take it and a firestorm erupts.

For what it's worth, I thought it was funny.  ;)
(The initial joke, not the panic thread.)

Yeah, I thought the initial joke was funny too.

I thought the panicked reaction was hilarious!

Like you, I don't care for using smileys and emoticons either.  But if there was a smiley that represents the respectful slow clap, followed by slowly standing up while clapping more and more vigorously into fullblown applause, I'd be using it right now.

Just followed that link ...read that other thread over there.

 Thats fucking priceless!!  

 As "dense" as some people think I might be - even I got the joke of that initial post.
 That is  just too hilarious.


 She meant well...is what makes it so good.

- E.W.C.

There's been a trouble ticket (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=318702) started over it, if anyone's curious.

Somehow Pundit even got mentioned.

Quote from: KoltarShe meant well...is what makes it so good.

- E.W.C.

Jocelyn is male. :)

Quote from: C.W.RichesonJocelyn is male. :)

Jocelyn's good people.

Quote from: BalbinusJocelyn's good people.

Agreed!

Where's my list of Balbinist games? Only James has submitted any!

-clash

Quote from: BalbinusIt took me a while to realise Jocelyn was serious, I wasn't sure at first and I didn't want to kill the thread with an apology.

Mate, Jocelyn does roleplaying as therapy. I shit you not - he's got threads about it on rpg.net.

Anyone who says, "let's pretend to be elven princesses, it'll help you deal with your traumas" is obviously Master Geek Level of obliviousness. Don't sweat it.

What if it's male elven archers instead?

I'd like to believe that your friend Jocelyn was just shit-stirring. If he was, that's funny.

If he wasn't, that's just sad. 'Goddam psychological violence'? Wow.

As a child I was subjected, by other children, to psychological violence. I know psychological violence. Jocelyn wouldn't know psychological violence if he read Pundit for a week.

Actually Jocelyn is a social worker. So he knows all about psychological violence, both treating it and giving it out. No, wait, social workers don't deserve that... what's the difference between a rottweiller and a social worker? You can get the baby back off a rottweiller! :p

Does this mean I shouldn't update the GNS Wikipedia entry?

I fail to understand all that mess. Jocelyn is IMO a clever and sensible poster. Balbinus' post is clearly a joke, to me (one has to love the British wit). What a shitstorm about nothing.

And yet another resident of a former colony becomes a victim of the Mother Country's sense of humour

I've said it before and I'll say it again: we cut the umbilicus much too soon




;)

Jocelyn is a social worker, as such he is I suspect more used to encountering and having to deal with psychological violence than most of us and didn't realise he was off duty as it were.

I think to be fair his rp in social work thing is not simply being an elf, but to be honest it's not a topic that interests me so I've never looked into it much.

I do think people are a touch quick to reach for counselling these days, there's a lot to be said for stoicism and all that and realising sometimes life's just a bit shitty, but that's off topic even for this thread.

Quote from: JimBobOzMate, Jocelyn does roleplaying as therapy. I shit you not - he's got threads about it on rpg.net.

Anyone who says, "let's pretend to be elven princesses, it'll help you deal with your traumas" is obviously Master Geek Level of obliviousness. Don't sweat it.

Did you even read the thread, or is there just too little cross-board bitching and sniping going on for you? 'cause this right here is rather classic JB-level spin bullshit.


For anybody else, it's actually a rather interesting project in the course of his job, handled exceedingly carefully if his account is accurate (last I read, during the planning stages). It's more "planning your future" therapy than "fixing your past", and he's rather embarrassed because he's spoken out on numerous occasions against the idea. If fairness, he's done so in the context of refuting the Swine claim that "all good roleplaying sessions are therapy". I'd post a link, but the big purple seems to have gone out for me. Cessna, I think your shit's broke.

Hell, I did roleplaying therapy a (long) while back. Anyone thinking it's stupid, overly geeky, or whatever is just too stuck on their beliefs of how smart they are and how if they don't understand something it can't be good.

Laugh at those people and move on. :)

At JimBob -> HA HA HA HA HA, bye.

The method of roleplaying has been used for therapy and education, military planning longer than there is a chap named Gygax.

Add to that:
Every leisure activity reduces stress, and games can give people confidence and social skills and whatnotelse.

But RPGs as we talk about them here are not set up for anything but some flesh wounds of the soul. Deep shit takes deep measures, RPGs aren´t up to it. Most likely because you game with your friends, and your friends are also not up to the task.

A real psychiatrist might use whatever he wants, could as well be D&D. But he´s a trained professional, and stuff like this needs supervision.

Quite true, Set. Apparently Jocelyn is a professional, and I know the lady my dad paid way too much money too was one.

What the fuck is "psychological violence"?

It's when your constant use of the word f*ck offends my delicate sensibilities.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWhat the fuck is "psychological violence"?

He must be referring to attacks like Ego Whip and Id Insinuation, its in appendix I of your PHB. I don't use it myself, preferring physical violence...

:haw:

Quote from: SettembriniEvery leisure activity reduces stress, and games can give people confidence and social skills and whatnotelse.

This bolded bit right here is the focus; IIRC, it's with a small group of boys regarding issues of "maleness" and father figures in a group that typically sees the former as centering around the :pimpdahoe: and the latter not at all, to paraphrase.

Quote from: James McMurrayHell, I did roleplaying therapy a (long) while back. Anyone thinking it's stupid, overly geeky, or whatever is just too stuck on their beliefs of how smart they are and how if they don't understand something it can't be good.

Laugh at those people and move on. :)

At JimBob -> HA HA HA HA HA, bye.

There's a difference between roleplaying therapy, and roleplaying games.

I think everyone who forgets that, deserves laughing at.

So HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH to you, you dumb fucker.

QuoteSo HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH to you, you dumb fucker.

No, you are the dumb fucker.

Psychiatrists and therapists use all kinds of activities according to their take on things. If being in a sports club has effects, if painting has effects, if music has effects, than roleplaying has hem too.

I´m in no position to judge what RPGs can and what not, but it´s stupid as fuck not to see that any activity can be used to work on your psyche.

I daresay RPGs from our geeky context aren´t built for this. But neither is playing Volleyball.

A professional must know his tools. RPGs can be one of them, be they therapeutical or regular Adventuresome Games.

When someone writes an RPG about killing sinful people to therapize himself for his traumata in a looney Cult, then it does get creepy, though. And I´m not sure if the self healing process  of writing is well fitted to serve others with their "issues".

Quote from: JimBobOzMate, Jocelyn does roleplaying as therapy. I shit you not - he's got threads about it on rpg.net.

Anyone who says, "let's pretend to be elven princesses, it'll help you deal with your traumas" is obviously Master Geek Level of obliviousness. Don't sweat it.

I know it's kinda cool these days to pretend roleplaying has to be mindless, pointless fun but it isn't the case.

On the subjet of the shitstorm:

I have met Jocelyn once (he wouldn't know it from my handle). He's a really enthusiastic gamer. He's genuinely into his work too. And finally, he is a very decent, nice person. So I'm kind of feel bad about the crap he is getting.

Having said that, his attitude, particularly on forums, does tend to be high and mighty. His judgment on all things is constantly colored. He's extremely protective of his field of work and that explains many of his misguided and naive views on what is/is not therapy, who can use it and how.

By the same token, he'll never admit it, but he has a strong dislike of the Forge because he doesn't like what the theory has to say about gamers like him.  He overreacted to Balbinus' joke because of this. His psychological violence argument, while understandable, doesn't hold much water when Jocelyn himself has been known to flame people and games left and right.

He's a nice guy but not to be taken seriously at all when he gets on his pedestal. Which is something he likes to do.

Quote from: Consonant DudeHe's a nice guy but not to be taken seriously at all when he gets on his pedestal. Which is something he likes to do.

Then he should be right at home here...also "here" we apparently do take folks seriously when they get on their pedestals, so it's double the fun.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Consonant DudeI know it's kinda cool these days to pretend roleplaying has to be mindless, pointless fun but it isn't the case.

Never said it had to be "mindless".

That's the good old "fallacy of the excluded middle" again. You know, like,
"I don't believe in capital punishment."
"What, so we should let them all go?!"
"I'm in favour of capital punishment."
"What, so we should kill people for jaywalking?!"

There's a sensible middle ground. Roleplaying does not have to be either mindless fun or therapy. It can be a fun, interesting and fulfilling experience, while being neither mindless nor therapy.

Quote from: Consonant DudeI have met Jocelyn once (he wouldn't know it from my handle). He's a really enthusiastic gamer. He's genuinely into his work too. And finally, he is a very decent, nice person. So I'm kind of feel bad about the crap he is getting.

We're all nice people in person. We all have at least a few of - friends, other hobbies, families, spouses, jobs, broken hearts, devout faith, gave to charity, once kicked a dog, whatever. So what? When we're being stupid or talking shit, people call us on it. If Jocelyn couldn't spot that Balbinus was talking shit, well then he was being stupid. And the "psychological violence" bit - that was talking shit.

Quote from: Consonant DudeBy the same token, he'll never admit it, but he has a strong dislike of the Forge because he doesn't like what the theory has to say about gamers like him.  

Why? Both he and Forgers say that roleplaying is good for therapy. Jocelyn just says you should do it deliberately, while the Forgers say that all roleplaying is group therapy whether you intend it or not. Same shit, different shovel.

Quote from: SettembriniNo, you are the dumb fucker.

I daresay RPGs from our geeky context aren´t built for this. But neither is playing Volleyball.

A professional must know his tools. RPGs can be one of them, be they therapeutical or regular Adventuresome Games.

When someone writes an RPG about killing sinful people to therapize himself for his traumata in a looney Cult, then it does get creepy, though. And I´m not sure if the self healing process  of writing is well fitted to serve others with their "issues".

Sett ,
 Are you one of those who considers yourself  "too cool" or "too dignified"  to be associated with those "geeky people"?

Just wondering.

 Again with the "Adventuresome Games" phrase or "adventure Games"  tag.
 Why not just call them Games or RPGs?

- Ed C.

Quote from: J ArcaneThere's a difference between roleplaying therapy, and roleplaying games.

I think everyone who forgets that, deserves laughing at.

So HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH to you, you dumb fucker.

Never said they were synonyms. However, RPGs can be used as part of theapy, which is what I was referring to. I'm sorry, I assumed it would be obvious from the posts in this thread what was being discussed. Hopefully this clarifies things a bit.

What I personally found illarious about the whole thing is the following gem taken from the follow-up thread in trouble tickets :

My guess is you'll probably be politely reminded that beefs with individual mods aren't to be made public and should be PMed.

Never, ever, take your beef with the rpg.net staff to PMs. Keep everything nice and public. It greatly reduces your chances of silently disappearing without anyone hearing about it.

That's true. But if you make your beef public, you'll still disappear - just publicly, and loudly.

It all depends on whether you're trying to Make A Statement - which is pointless, and will be forgotten in moments by all watchers - or would rather keep posting.

If you've got a beef with the rpg.net moderation, shut the fuck up. Even if you support them, shut the fuck up. They don't like you discussing moderation at all. That's why they have that "no backtalking mods" business.

Any questioning or discussion of moderator decisions, even favourable, will make you stand out amongst the 31,000+ members. When a nail sticks up, they hammer it down. If you want to be able to post there, don't stand out to the mods. Another good way to escape their notice is to never post in Tangency :hehe:

Quote from: JimBobOzWhy? Both he and Forgers say that roleplaying is good for therapy. Jocelyn just says you should do it deliberately, while the Forgers say that all roleplaying is group therapy whether you intend it or not. Same shit, different shovel.

IIRC, Jocelyn is a deep immersion role-player and I figure that's what Consonant Dude was referring to.

Quote from: JimBobOzThere's a sensible middle ground. Roleplaying does not have to be either mindless fun or therapy. It can be a fun, interesting and fulfilling experience, while being neither mindless nor therapy.

Indeed. But there will always be people like you to look down upon more ambitious roleplaying goals and I think that's not a good attitude.

It's just as bad as those who like to look down on those who just want to dungeoncrawl.

There's a middle ground, but I don't know if it is much more sensible than the "extremes". I just don't think there's anything wrong with trying things that may sound extreme to some, something that seems to be a problem for many participants of the Forge, RPGsite and RPG.net.

Quote from: JimBobOzWhy? Both he and Forgers say that roleplaying is good for therapy. Jocelyn just says you should do it deliberately, while the Forgers say that all roleplaying is group therapy whether you intend it or not. Same shit, different shovel.

I don't know the Forge's position on therapy. I do know that there is a lot of Forge theory that offends Jocelyn on other grounds than that.

Just because you and me and Nox don't value the Forge theory much doesn't mean all three of us are going to agree with everything else.

If you have moderation you have I suspect to have a no backtalking mods policy, else the mods will struggle to maintain their authority.

I see it as a necessary concommitant of having mods, and as such it doesn't especially bother me.

QuoteWhy not just call them Games or RPGs?

Because I´m not as radical as the Pundit. He would deny the RPGness of Thematic Games, and thusly can say RPG, whenever I must differentiate.

But that backfires, so he has to constantly say: "traditional RPGs".

I prefer Adventure Roleplaying Games, as a word, and as a game.

Quote from: BalbinusIf you have moderation you have I suspect to have a no backtalking mods policy, else the mods will struggle to maintain their authority.

Not really.

In the first place, mods don't really need any air of authority, they have the ability to ban and such, that achieves the purpose. You don't need a badge when you have a stick.

Secondly, "no backtalking" means no disagreement with them. If it were simply "no personal attacks", well you can easily have that for your entire forum, mods need no special protection.

It's just ego. "Don't diss me, bitch!" The "no backtalking mods" has the practical effect of "no strong criticism of mod decisions," which has means that a few people decide what "the community" will be like. Which is fine - but you can't really refuse to listen to people, and then claim you're representing their wishes. What you get is that they just listen to the people expressing opinions they already agree with.

And then you get it becoming "an emotionally safe environment" - with talk of anal sex, h4wt cosplay chixxorz, and... er...

Sad. It's wasted potential. It's as sad as the absence of women gamers on this forum, because of its moderation's prescriptive style of "rawr manly hard talk women lying bitches!" Wasted potential. The purpose of a forum is to have a free and open exchange of ideas, though focused on some particular topic; when you're excluding certain ideas, or certain speakers, well... (Doesn't mean no-one should ever be banned, of course - if they're not there to have free and open exchange of ideas, well...)

Quote from: Consonant DudeIndeed. But there will always be people like you to look down upon more ambitious roleplaying goals and I think that's not a good attitude.

I don't see how aiming to have a fun, interesting and fulfilling experience is a low ambition, or how "therapy" or "education" (the other goals most commonly mentioned apart from "fun") are "higher" ambitions.

The right tool for the right job, and the right tradesperson to wield that tool. Most people are not qualified therapists or educators. I wouldn't let a gamer do first aid on me simply because they'd done it in an rpg, nor would I let a gamer do therapy on me because they thought gaming was good for it.

Roleplaying games are not designed for therapy and education, nor are they well-suited for those goals; still less are most roleplayers in any way qualified to do so, except of course just as any friends are suited to help and teach one another.

I look down on roleplaying as therapy or education in the same way that I look down on someone getting a hubcap off their wheel with a chisel. Okay, you can try it, but there are better tools for the job, and probably if you try it that way you'll get a mess.  

My feeling is that those promoting roleplaying games as therapeutic or educational are just a bit embarassed about pretending to be elven princesses, so they're trying to cover over their embarassment by looking for "more ambitious" things they can do with it.

Quote from: JimBobOzRoleplaying games are not designed for therapy and education, nor are they well-suited for those goals;

Swimming, cooking, graphic novels or jogging aren't designed for therapy either and have been used as such. I would guess the same with education.

I'm not qualified to discuss therapy. But I'll take your opinion on what is or is not suited with a grain of salt.

Quote from: JimBobOzMy feeling is that those promoting roleplaying games as therapeutic or educational are just a bit embarassed about pretending to be elven princesses, so they're trying to cover over their embarassment by looking for "more ambitious" things they can do with it.

This really exemplifies the side of your personna I don't agree with, or really like. A whole lot of assumptions and bullshit simply because someone doesn't want to sit on his ass and eat cheetos.

We could reverse-engineer those assumptions and label anyone with them, including me and including you.

Quote from: JimBobOzI don't see how aiming to have a fun, interesting and fulfilling experience is a low ambition, or how "therapy" or "education" (the other goals most commonly mentioned apart from "fun") are "higher" ambitions.

The right tool for the right job, and the right tradesperson to wield that tool. Most people are not qualified therapists or educators. I wouldn't let a gamer do first aid on me simply because they'd done it in an rpg, nor would I let a gamer do therapy on me because they thought gaming was good for it.

Roleplaying games are not designed for therapy and education, nor are they well-suited for those goals; still less are most roleplayers in any way qualified to do so, except of course just as any friends are suited to help and teach one another.

I look down on roleplaying as therapy or education in the same way that I look down on someone getting a hubcap off their wheel with a chisel. Okay, you can try it, but there are better tools for the job, and probably if you try it that way you'll get a mess.  

My feeling is that those promoting roleplaying games as therapeutic or educational are just a bit embarassed about pretending to be elven princesses, so they're trying to cover over their embarassment by looking for "more ambitious" things they can do with it.

It's something I'm beginning to notice as a cultural trend, and it doesn't just apply to roleplaying games.

A generation of folks who've grown up, but are still attached to things they loved when they were younger, but those things still bear a mark of being childish.

So they overcompensate.  In some case they even take these things and try and remake them to be "more grown up".

So we get over the top cartoons that go crazy on the sex and violence, a Transformers remake with spikes all over Optimus Prime and promises of lots of violence, the "so edgy it hurts itself" new Battlestar Galactica.

And roleplaying games about being holocaust victims or lynch mobs or sexually abused children, or guys going on about games as therapy.  Or games as some kind of academic course of study.  Or a whole host of silly ideas.

They've the conviction to not give up the things they liked, but not the self-respect or the dignity not to freak out about what everyone else will think.

maybe the definition of being a grown up has gone beyone having interests that are limited to:

Football.
Basketball.
Baseball.
Boxing.
Wrestling.
Drinking.
Sex.
Stamp collecting.
Model Railroading.
Golf.
Bowling.
Politics.
Watching TV.



Seriously, it seems that a lot of people assumed that those were the only interests/hobbies that "grown ups" were allowed until recently, and some people think they still are.

Other people see nothing wrong with so called grown ups liking things that aren't related to watching sports on TV, or watching TV at all.

Er, role-playing was going on in a therapeutic context long before D&D was written. Now, modern role-playing games probably aren't great for therapy, but it's not like this is some random new thing - combining roleplaying and psychotherapy - from the past five years or so.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineEr, role-playing was going on in a therapeutic context long before D&D was written. Now, modern role-playing games probably aren't great for therapy, but it's not like this is some random new thing - combining roleplaying and psychotherapy - from the past five years or so.

As I said above, I'm well aware of the use of roleplaying in therapy, but we're talking about sometihng very different, and also something that's done (and should be done) by trained psychiatric professionals.

Roleplaying games are a form of entertainment where a bunch of folks get together and pretend to be elves and dwarves and vampires, and even in some cases, Mormon lynch mobs.

Conflating the two is just a rhetorical gamble to try and puff up roleplaying's image as "serious business".  It's pretentious nonsense, not worth the bits on the screen used to babble it.

Quote from: Consonant DudeThis really exemplifies the side of your personna I don't agree with, or really like. A whole lot of assumptions and bullshit simply because someone doesn't want to sit on his ass and eat cheetos.

You cannot agree or disagree with a "side of a persona"; you can only agree or disagreee with their opinions and ideas.

And again, we're up with the old "fallacy of the excluded middle."

Here we have, roleplaying as art, therapy and education. Now let's head on down to,

















































"I show up to game to sit on my arse and eat cheetos."

Did you see all that space between those two statements? That's what we figuratively call "a middle ground." There's quite a lot of space there. We can have all sorts of games which are neither art/therapy/education, nor merely an excuse to mindlessly consume cheetos.

We can have a fun, interesting and fulfilling game session, and in that game session produce nothing we'd call "art", do no deliberate therapy or education, and at the same time, if we eat cheetos it's only because we're hungry and sharing food is a nice social thing that makes everything else go more smoothly.

I'm not sure how I can make you remember the fallacy of the excluded middle. I mean, when you see a zebra crossing, if the paint's a bit cream-coloured rather than pure white, do you just go on ahead and drive over it? "But officer, the lines were not white, therefore they are black and I couldn't see them." If your boyfriend complains that he's a bit cold and would like to warm up, do you set him on fire? If your friend says it's the day before payday, and she's a bit short of cash compared to usual, do you advise her to file for bankruptcy?

There's a sensible middle ground. That's where most of us live our lives.