TheRPGSite

(The following views are my own and are not intended to be the official position of theRPGsite.  As far as I can tell, theRPGsite has very few official positions beyond "spammers suck" and "hey, we like RPGs".  But given the nature of this post, I wanted to make it clear that I am not here acting in an official admin-type capacity.)

Dear Dominus Nox,

At least twice now you've brought up this interesting stuff I currently call "that crazy KKK shit".  Most recently in a thread in the Help Desk area, where you write:

QuoteActually that's me they're talking about. You see, I once said that I have more respect for the KKK than I do all these PC types who preach "tolerance, acceptance and respect" out of one side of their mouths while spewing hate, abuse and bigotry out of the other.

To be honest I can't tell if you're playing devil's advocate or if you really hold this position.  I'm hoping it's the former, bit I'm afraid you've led me to suspect that the latter option is closer to the mark.  I'm a guy who has spent almost all of his life in his home state here in the midwestern USA, so my life experience is a bit more provincial than some who post here.  But in my limited experience the only people who ever have anything the least bit good to say about the KKK are racist assholes.

Maybe in your corner of the world people are more sophisticated and can say things like "You know that Hitler guy may have been a crazy-ass megalomaniacal fuck, but his fiscal policy was sound."  Maybe in your home town that's an invitation to a meaningful discussion of WWII era economics.  But where I'm from, saying anything at all that might be construed as the least iota either pro-Nazi or pro-KKK even in jest means you are drawing a line in the sand.  On one side of that line are the racists and bigots and assorted foes of civilization, on the other side are the friends of humanity.  So while you may not have intended these comments to mean anything of the sort, you words have led me to suspect you of being one of the enemy.

I do not write this accusation lightly, but with a heavy heart.  I do not go onto the internet looking for fights, and even here in the Off Topic section, I feel theRPGsite is not the proper venue for these sorts of discussions.  But at least for my own sake the air must be cleared.  I need to know where you really stand in this matter.  So I beg you,  state your position so that I may know it without any ambiguity.  Either repudiate your earlier remarks with regards to having any respect for the KKK, or restate your position in the clearest language possible.  If I have misread you, be assured I will apologize as broadly and resoundingly as possible for misinterpreting your statements.

Quote from: jrients(The following views are my own and are not intended to be the official position of theRPGsite.  As far as I can tell, theRPGsite has very few official positions beyond "spammers suck" and "hey, we like RPGs".  But given the nature of this post, I wanted to make it clear that I am not here acting in an official admin-type capacity.)

Dear Dominus Nox,

At least twice now you've brought up this interesting stuff I currently call "that crazy KKK shit".  Most recently in a thread in the Help Desk area, where you write:
To be honest I can't tell if you're playing devil's advocate or if you really hold this position.  I'm hoping it's the former, bit I'm afraid you've led me to suspect that the latter option is closer to the mark.  I'm a guy who has spent almost all of his life in his home state here in the midwestern USA, so my life experience is a bit more provincial than some who post here.  But in my limited experience the only people who ever have anything the least bit good to say about the KKK are racist assholes.

Maybe in your corner of the world people are more sophisticated and can say things like "You know that Hitler guy may have been a crazy-ass megalomaniacal fuck, but his fiscal policy was sound."  Maybe in your home town that's an invitation to a meaningful discussion of WWII era economics.  But where I'm from, saying anything at all that might be construed as the least iota either pro-Nazi or pro-KKK even in jest means you are drawing a line in the sand.  On one side of that line are the racists and bigots and assorted foes of civilization, on the other side are the friends of humanity.  So while you may not have intended these comments to mean anything of the sort, you words have led me to suspect you of being one of the enemy.

I do not write this accusation lightly, but with a heavy heart.  I do not go onto the internet looking for fights, and even here in the Off Topic section, I feel theRPGsite is not the proper venue for these sorts of discussions.  But at least for my own sake the air must be cleared.  I need to know where you really stand in this matter.  So I beg you,  state your position so that I may know it without any ambiguity.  Either repudiate your earlier remarks with regards to having any respect for the KKK, or restate your position in the clearest language possible.  If I have misread you, be assured I will apologize as broadly and resoundingly as possible for misinterpreting your statements.

For the record, I am dead serious about having more respect for the KKK than for hollywood. I've gove over it before and won't repeat it now except to say that while I may not like the KKK or any other christian organization very much at least the KKK is honest and doesn't preach against bigotry and hate while practicing it like hollywood does.

I mean it, i am sick of these smug, self righteous, pious hollywood types decrying how hurtful "prejudice" and "bigotry" are one second, then making hateful stereotypes of overweight people, rednecks, nerds, geeks, etc, the next. Fucking pompous hypocritical scum.

I happen to have an extreme intolerance towards hypocrites, and for all their other failing the KKK isn't anywhere near as hypocritical as the hollywood PC elites. They're honest enough to admit they hate, and they don't cover up their hate by calling it 'comedy".

Lastly, when did I ever say anything good about the KKK? I said, and you can look this up, that they are not as hypocritical as the hollywood elite, and that they are more honest than the PC types who preach tolerance while practicing "acceptable" forms of bigotry against "acceptable" targets. That is NOT saying anything good about the KKK, it is saying that those who preach tolerance and acceptance while practicing 'safe' bigotry and intolerance are  morally WORSE.
 
End of discussion.

What I'm really curious about is what you would have said if he'd said "All niggers must die!", Mr Rients.

"I agree"? :D

Such. fine, honest folk--most of whom hide their faces behind hoods while preaching their hatred. Yeah. Right. There was a protest by a few of them not to long ago in a city adjacent to where I lived--they show up hooded, masked, because they're such dishonest cowards they won't admit in public unmasked their affiliation or beliefs.

For the record just about anyone who holds intolerance is dishonest. At the very least with themselves.

Quote from: Dominus NoxThat is NOT saying anything good about the KKK, it is saying that those who preach tolerance and acceptance while practicing 'safe' bigotry and intolerance are  morally WORSE.

Rail against the Hollywood elite that is oppressing you all you want, man.  But bringing the KKK into the discussion at all will only alienate people.  People like me, who would rather be counted among the greatest hypocrites of the world than acknowledge any respect for the frickin' Klan.  Please understand that what you are doing here is talking about having respect for an organization with a long documented history of racial violence.  When your hypocrits in Hollywood have racked up a history of church bombings and lynchings, maybe we can discuss this situation again.  Until then I will put your "KKK>Hollywood jerkwads" math in the same mental place I put the folks who blame "the jews" for 9/11 or Holocaust deniers.
 

QuoteEnd of discussion.

Indeed.  Thank you for clarifying.

Quote from: droogWhat I'm really curious about is what you would have said if he'd said "All niggers must die!", Mr Rients.

Something along the lines of "Please get off the board, fucko."

Quote from: Mr. Analytical"I agree"? :D

Mr. Analytical, I really don't think this thread is the best place for levity.  And my first post made it clear that I don't have much of a sense of humour in these things.

Hey, I'm the one who linked up the pro-KKK remarks with the post about whether or not you could host race hate websites in the UK without being prosecuted.  

I don't have much of a sense of humour about this either, which is why I drew attention to the fact that the evidence points to Dominus being a racist and am not impressed with his attempting to hide behind the fact that he hates hypocrisy more than he hates people who would burn someone alive simply for being of a different colour.

As it stands, I don't think he should be banned or anything because it's not as if he starts threads going "Boy I sure do hate me some niggers" but as far as I'm concerned there's no need for clarification... his true nature has revealed itself and despite being given multiple chances to do so. When challenged all he ever says is that he hates Hollywood more than he does the Klan, which is singularly unimformative.

Dominus has had a number of chances to clarify his position on racial relations but he refuses to state that he isn't a racist.

I think it's pretty clear what he is but his hideous belief system shouldn't prevent him from holding forth on RPGs and he seemingly keeps it well under wraps.

Just an official note: I don't believe Dominus Nox is actually a full-blown KKK-guy in disguise. If he was, I would find myself having to do my first banning; not because of any notion of stifling his speech but because my experience has shown that if you let one guy start making racist speech on a message board, pretty soon the word gets out and the whole board gets filled with skinheads and neo-nazis.

But like I said, I don't think he's a neo-nazi. I just think he's an idiot.

Basically, consider that he's comparing making fun of fat people or people who don't wash themselves with burning down churches and hanging people.  This is the geek persecution complex taken to its utmost extreme.

And let's be serious here; is there absolutely anyone on this thread that would bet against the odds that Dominus is himself a grossly overweight pimply nosepicker with hygene issues?

He's clearly got all the social dysfunctions of your standard lawncrapper, including an apparent mentally defective inability to understand why claiming that the KKK are "honest folk" would strike anyone as wrong.

So there you go, dominus: I'm going to stand up and place my bets that you're not actually a neo-nazi. You're just a fuckwit who lives in his parent's house and won't ever get to have sex with a real human woman ever.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditJust an official note: I don't believe Dominus Nox is actually a full-blown KKK-guy in disguise. If he was, I would find myself having to do my first banning; not because of any notion of stifling his speech but because my experience has shown that if you let one guy start making racist speech on a message board, pretty soon the word gets out and the whole board gets filled with skinheads and neo-nazis.

But like I said, I don't think he's a neo-nazi. I just think he's an idiot.

Basically, consider that he's comparing making fun of fat people or people who don't wash themselves with burning down churches and hanging people.  This is the geek persecution complex taken to its utmost extreme.

And let's be serious here; is there absolutely anyone on this thread that would bet against the odds that Dominus is himself a grossly overweight pimply nosepicker with hygene issues?

He's clearly got all the social dysfunctions of your standard lawncrapper, including an apparent mentally defective inability to understand why claiming that the KKK are "honest folk" would strike anyone as wrong.

So there you go, dominus: I'm going to stand up and place my bets that you're not actually a neo-nazi. You're just a fuckwit who lives in his parent's house and won't ever get to have sex with a real human woman ever.

RPGPundit

generally, I'm not into the whole trash someone thing but I think this time it is deserved. :o

Quote from: RPG PunditThis is the geek persecution complex taken to its utmost extreme.

Yeah.  This is my read as well.  Anyone with a normal set of social skills, even many racist idiots, would have backed down when called on this shit.  I've known plenty of people who will say stupid racist stuff but then quickly fall back when confronted.  In my experience these mistakes are made repeatedly only by the kind of socially maladaptive type who doesn't understand subtle ideas like "context" or the fact that other people have hot buttons which you really oughtn't push.

Jrients, pundy, fuck you both. You can say what you want about me, but you are both piling one person and attacking at cowards odds.

Fuck you, I have the guts to say what I believe regardless of how many  pussies pile on me.


BYW, you claim that people who make movies in which overweight people exist solely to be attacked and abused aren't hurting anyone. Well, you're fucking ignorant morons then, because when kids see these movies they catch the idea that it's fun to abuse overweight people, and guess what happens to the overweright kids they go to school with? They get put thru hell and many are driven to suicide every year.

But why bother trying to explain that to you?  You both have your heads o far up your asses you can't even smell your own shit.

I likes it when we piles onto pussy. Especially white pussy!

You'd think he'd be happy to have pussy piled on top of him.  I know I would be.

Quote from: Dominus NoxJrients, pundy, fuck you both. You can say what you want about me, but you are both piling one person and attacking at cowards odds.

Dude, you are going to have a hard time making anything stick to me.  Not because I'm a saint.  I'm not.  But because you call two guys on the internet cowards while at the same time telling people about your level of respect for those honest guys in the KKK.

QuoteFuck you, I have the guts to say what I believe regardless of how many  pussies pile on me.

Oh, boy!  You have an opinion on the internet and you won't back down when I say it's a shitty one!  You brave, manly man.

QuoteBYW, you claim that people who make movies in which overweight people exist solely to be attacked and abused aren't hurting anyone. Well, you're fucking ignorant morons then, because when kids see these movies they catch the idea that it's fun to abuse overweight people, and guess what happens to the overweright kids they go to school with? They get put thru hell and many are driven to suicide every year.

But why bother trying to explain that to you?  You both have your heads o far up your asses you can't even smell your own shit.

I say if you want to take on the Hollywood elite for making crappy movies with bad messages, rock on.  Seriously, go for it.  I don't dispute that Hollywood makes movies with shitty messages.  What I do dispute is that anyone but a maladjusted self-righteous fucktard with a persecution complex would ever think that bad Hollywood movies justify saying nice things about the KKK.  If you had an ounce of sense in your fool head, you would know that.

You're calling me a pussy because people like Pundit are jumping into this thread and agreeing with me.  That's not always the sign of a dogpile, son.  Sometimes that is a sign that you're wrong and eveybody else is right.  You seem to want some people who make movies that inspires some idiots to drive some kid to suicide to be a worse villain than a gang of masked thugs who kill people.  Let that soak in for a moment before you type your next response.

I don't know you outside this forum, maybe you're a fat kid in high school suffering torments right now.  Maybe you're an adult who's still hurt by those experiences.  Maybe you had a friend or loved one who killed themselves.  I don't know.  What I do know is that your experiences, horrific though they may be, don't make Hollywood more evil than the god-damned Klan.  Your gut may be telling you otherwise, but your gut is just plain wrong.  Get it over it.

Incidentally, when my wife hears a fella use "pussy" as an insult she usually responds with something like "Pussy is bad?  When did pussy become bad?  Last I checked pussy was the most wonderful and cherished thing in most men's lives."

Quote from: jrientsIncidentally, when my wife hears a fella use "pussy" as an insult she usually responds with something like "Pussy is bad?  When did pussy become bad?  Last I checked pussy was the most wonderful and cherished thing in most men's lives."

Hang on to that one. :)

QuoteFuck you, I have the guts to say what I believe regardless of how many  pussies pile on me.

I appreciate your stand for freedom of speech, I really do.

BUT:
Your freedom of speech is endangering my staying on this board.
I'm german. When I hang around a site that could be constructed as anti-semitic or KKK-related, I could lose job and family. Think of this how you want, it's fact. I respect others right of having "work-safe" prictures too, although my country and society is very open to nudity. So please stop making comments like this, if only for me. I ask you out of common sense. I'm not challenging your opinion. I'd just like you to cull your freedom of expression for my sake. Just as I do.
Or do you want me post vagina photos in all your threads? I like pussies, and nobody will take my right away to look at pussy pictures. But do I have to show them to people who have not asked for them?

Quote from: jrientsIncidentally, when my wife hears a fella use "pussy" as an insult she usually responds with something like "Pussy is bad?  When did pussy become bad?  Last I checked pussy was the most wonderful and cherished thing in most men's lives."

Your wife is truly an exceptional lady. Please, send her my utmost respect, and consider me at her service.

Quote from: jrientsIncidentally, when my wife hears a fella use "pussy" as an insult she usually responds with something like "Pussy is bad?  When did pussy become bad?  Last I checked pussy was the most wonderful and cherished thing in most men's lives."

I need to have my wife call your wife.

Quote from: SettembriniI appreciate your stand for freedom of speech, I really do.

BUT:
Your freedom of speech is endangering my staying on this board.
I'm german. When I hang around a site that could be constructed as anti-semitic or KKK-related, I could lose job and family. Think of this how you want, it's fact. I respect others right of having "work-safe" prictures too, although my country and society is very open to nudity. So please stop making comments like this, if only for me. I ask you out of common sense. I'm not challenging your opinion. I'd just like you to cull your freedom of expression for my sake. Just as I do.
Or do you want me post vagina photos in all your threads? I like pussies, and nobody will take my right away to look at pussy pictures. But do I have to show them to people who have not asked for them?

I'll repeat this, because HOLY SHIT!  I emphasized what I didn't know.  I suppose it's like that here too, in some places...but racism is pretty well tolerated here in the states.  Sex, though, if you posted vaginas in every thread well, a lot of Americans here could lose their jobs!  That's really cracked out.  

And hey, Dominus, you did what jrients said...lay off it and don't post anymore.  I think you should do it for Settembrini, and any other Germans here.

Judging from his thread where he says "I'm glad!" (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2182)  - that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea has tested a nuclear weapon, which he feels is just to flip the bird to Dubya - judging from that plus his Klan sympathies, I think we can only conclude that he's hoping that the commies will nuke New York so that The South Can Rise Again And Put Dem Nigras In Dere Place.

"Fer our rahts!"

You notice the posts are actually in red now? :idunno:
I really don't get it.

He's on a rebellion against the cruel mods of RPG.net, because they use the red text to issue warnings and such, and therefore its use is not allowed.

He's a real Spartacus.

Or maybe he's a goddamned communist!

I'm Sparticus!

Quote from: JimBobOzJudging from his thread where he says "I'm glad!" (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2182)  - that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea has tested a nuclear weapon, which he feels is just to flip the bird to Dubya - judging from that plus his Klan sympathies, I think we can only conclude that he's hoping that the commies will nuke New York so that The South Can Rise Again And Put Dem Nigras In Dere Place.

"Fer our rahts!"

I'd say this is both unwarranted and too much credit.

That he thinks the Klan has moral superiority over Hollywood and is in favor of North Korea having nuclear weapons might not mean he's an unrepetant maniac racist.

He might just be a doughy retard huffing model glue and eating Dorito crumbs out of his belly fur in a dank basement somewhere, making Internet Bad-Ass Liberal (Bush r teh Hitler!) posts in a desperate attempt to generate a sense of self-worth from absolute zero.

Quote from: Dominus NoxBut why bother trying to explain that to you?  You both have your heads so far up your asses you can't even smell your own shit.

I was reading this and thought that we shouldn't forget this thread too quickly.Noxy's quote above seems to apply more to himself than his detractors.

Wow. Aren't there enough Nox bashing threads without having to raise some from the dead.

Sorry Nox, when I posted the photo I was mostly just being funny. Don't get me wrong, I was definitely taking a shot at you and your "I'll be RACIST!!! if you want me to" stance, but didn't think it would spawn a new trend.

Quote from: James McMurrayWow. Aren't there enough Nox bashing threads without having to raise some from the dead.

I've got to agree with this mainly because I honestly believe that Nox can grow and change but also because if he doesn't he's sure to post more entertaining rubbish.

@Settembrini : Just put DoNox on your Ignore list here - that way you'll only ever see his text when someone quotes him.

Quote from: AosI'm Sparticus!

I'm Spartacus and so's my wife!

I love the German and American legal systems!

So lets quit this Nox, so Sett and other buddies from Germany can post in peace. NSFW!!! OMGWTFBBQ!

Quote from: James McMurrayWow. Aren't there enough Nox bashing threads without having to raise some from the dead.

 but didn't think it would spawn a new trend.

Don't let your ego get the better of you James.A lot of others were ( myself included) taking the piss out of Noxy a while before you.;)

Yeah, I know, I could IL him. But I thought I´d try to reason with him.

Again, the KKK has no positive attributes AT ALL. At least with Hollywood you occasionally get good entertainment. Having known Klansmen, I can say with some authority that the organization does NOTHING positive. It doesn't even do anything for it's members (though it used to, long ago). Now it's just a hate group.

Being a hypocrite ain't as bad as being a right cunt.

Quote from: Dominus NoxFor the record, I am dead serious about having more respect for the KKK than for hollywood. I've gove over it before and won't repeat it now except to say that while I may not like the KKK or any other christian organization very much at least the KKK is honest and doesn't preach against bigotry and hate while practicing it like hollywood does.

I have friends who work in hollywood.  It's not some evil hive-mind where everyone is a despisable hypocrite.  If you genuinely have more respect for the KKK than hollywood then you need to get a better perspective.  

Quote from: Dominus NoxI said, and you can look this up, that they are not as hypocritical as the hollywood elite, and that they are more honest than the PC types who preach tolerance while practicing "acceptable" forms of bigotry against "acceptable" targets. That is NOT saying anything good about the KKK, it is saying that those who preach tolerance and acceptance while practicing 'safe' bigotry and intolerance are morally WORSE.

So, you have a problem with some Hollywood movies making fun of -- fat people, ugly people, socially awkward people, stupid people, etc?

Do you see the difference between:
a) Making fun of
b) Denying rights to
c) Killing

A, B and C may all be bad, but A is nowhere near as bad as C.

Quote from: StuartI have friends who work in hollywood.  It's not some evil hive-mind where everyone is a despisable hypocrite.  If you genuinely have more respect for the KKK than hollywood then you need to get a better perspective.  



So, you have a problem with some Hollywood movies making fun of -- fat people, ugly people, socially awkward people, stupid people, etc?

Do you see the difference between:
a) Making fun of
b) Denying rights to
c) Killing

A, B and C may all be bad, but A is nowhere near as bad as C.

Making fun of certain people is the first step in making abusing them acceptable.

Making it acceptable to abuse certain people is the first step towards making persecuting them acceptable.

Making persecution of certain people acceptable is the first step on the road to makink killing them acceptable.


For years and years before the first cyanide shower opened, the nazis had been portraying the people they hated as subhuman, inferior, vile, etc. It made the main course go down easier.

This from a guy who loves name-calling ??


 Oy Vey!!


- E.W.C.

Quote from: KoltarThis from a guy who loves name-calling ??


 Oy Vey!!


- E.W.C.

I call people nakes based on how they behave, which is why I call you a toadying ass kisser.

What mollywood does is abuse people simply because they don't look like fucking fashion models, you stupid jellyfish.

Quote from: Dominus NoxFor years and years before the first cyanide shower opened, the nazis had been portraying the people they hated as subhuman, inferior, vile, etc. It made the main course go down easier.

Strictly speaking, it wasn't the Nazis who started Jew-bashing. It was already a grand old institution.

Now, apparently, the bashing has shifted to Muslims. The parallels are astounding when you look at them. A people set apart by their religion, an alien presence in the middle of Christendom, a threat to Western civilisation. Ugly cartoons that denigrate people and reduce them to objects. Talk of 'solutions' (final ones, I presume).

Interesting times.

Quote from: Dominus NoxMaking fun of certain people is the first step in making abusing them acceptable.

Making it acceptable to abuse certain people is the first step towards making persecuting them acceptable.

Making persecution of certain people acceptable is the first step on the road to makink killing them acceptable.

So you're saying that, sooner or later, Hollywood may one day convince us that it's not only okay, but desireable to systematically kill fat, lonely losers?  And this as-yet-to-manifest possibility makes them worse than the Klan with an established track record of premeditated murder and mayhem.

So basically, you've picked bedmates based on an irrational fear that someone has finally hatched a plot to go out and lynch your kind (and you may read "your kind" however you wish).

!i!

The United States is never going to carry out a policy of genocide against fat people. Genocides are for minorities.

Yeah, I was absolutely stunned by the recent study that ranked obesity in countries throughout the world.  Here in Uruguay there were concerns that Uruguay (ranked something like #37 worldwide) was tops in latin america for overweight people (Uruguay is a full of country of guys with beer-bellies and incredibly beautiful thin women).

But the crazy part was the top 10.  9 of the top ten countries were nations in the South Pacific. Places like the Republic of Palau, where you had these maori cultures with genetic obesity and terrible diets. Micronesia, etc etc. All the "maori countries" basically.

And smack dab in the middle of all of these, the ONLY 1st world country in the top ten rating, the United States. When you have as much fat people percentage wise (many many more population-wise, obviously) as Palau; I mean... shit...

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYeah, I was absolutely stunned by the recent study that ranked obesity in countries throughout the world.  Here in Uruguay there were concerns that Uruguay (ranked something like #37 worldwide) was tops in latin america for overweight people (Uruguay is a full of country of guys with beer-bellies and incredibly beautiful thin women).

But the crazy part was the top 10.  9 of the top ten countries were nations in the South Pacific. Places like the Republic of Palau, where you had these maori cultures with genetic obesity and terrible diets. Micronesia, etc etc. All the "maori countries" basically.

And smack dab in the middle of all of these, the ONLY 1st world country in the top ten rating, the United States. When you have as much fat people percentage wise (many many more population-wise, obviously) as Palau; I mean... shit...

RPGPundit

It makes sense. We are large and in charge after all. :D

Damn straight. We're living large, baby! Those poor bastards are genetically fat. We're fat because we rule the world and like to show it by doing everything to excess. :D

Isn't that already what happens? I can't think of a time when Nox (or anyone here for that matter) said something completely full of odious crap and didn't called on it.

Quote from: JimBobOzThe United States is never going to carry out a policy of genocide against fat people. Genocides are for minorities.

Good point!!

 I better get working on my diet real soon.

- E.W.C.

In all honesty, I think that america rates highest in obesity because we let corporate scum create sugary, fatty, addictive things that shouldn't be called foods, like soda, most breakfast cereals, premade cakes, ad infinitum, and then spend millions of dollars, if not billions, advertising them to children with the cold blooded intent of getting them addicted to them and stuff like potato chips, cheeseburgers, ad nauseum.

Again, speaking seriously, I think that the corporate pigs who deliberately target children for addiction to greasy, fatty foods that are designed to be addictive are as much child predators as the sick fucks who troll chatrooms looking for kids to have sex with, and the corporations who set kids up to become addicts to this shit with carefully crafted advertising harm a lot more kids, tho in, admittedly, different ways.

You want to hear something totally insane? In america we don't allow companies to advertise cigarettes to adults on TV, but we allow junk and fast food makers to advertise their addictive, unhealthy and destructive products to children.

Man, is that insane or what?

You may now resume your usual me bashing.

Nox, you are indeed into all kinds of conspiracies.
Did you know this site is owned and operated by a bunch of Freemasons?

What´s the deal with that?

BTW, nutritional habits are formed by the parents.

Quote from: SettembriniNox, you are indeed into all kinds of conspiracies.
Did you know this site is owned and operated by a bunch of Freemasons?

That's a wildly inaccurate statement.

There's not enough of us to constitute a 'bunch'.

Quote from: SettembriniNox, you are indeed into all kinds of conspiracies.
Did you know this site is owned and operated by a bunch of Freemasons?

What´s the deal with that?

If it turns out that Ron Edwards is a Rosicrucian then everything will suddenly start making sense

Is that similar to a bunch of bananas?

Quote from: Dominus NoxIn all honesty, I think that america rates highest in obesity because we let corporate scum create sugary, fatty, addictive things that shouldn't be called foods, like soda, most breakfast cereals, premade cakes, ad infinitum, and then spend millions of dollars, if not billions, advertising them to children with the cold blooded intent of getting them addicted to them and stuff like potato chips, cheeseburgers, ad nauseum.

Again, speaking seriously, I think that the corporate pigs who deliberately target children for addiction to greasy, fatty foods that are designed to be addictive are as much child predators as the sick fucks who troll chatrooms looking for kids to have sex with, and the corporations who set kids up to become addicts to this shit with carefully crafted advertising harm a lot more kids, tho in, admittedly, different ways.

You want to hear something totally insane? In america we don't allow companies to advertise cigarettes to adults on TV, but we allow junk and fast food makers to advertise their addictive, unhealthy and destructive products to children.

Man, is that insane or what?

You may now resume your usual me bashing.

You completely bypass the idea that parents might be responsible for making sure that their children eat a fairly balanced diet. All kids like sweet crap. Is it not the responsibility of their parents to make sure that they eat a varied diet?
I also see a few roleplayers who are pot bellied and unhealthy due to the fact that they don't do anything more physical than roll dice. The moral of this observation being that some form of exercise is better than being a lazy slob 24/7.

Quote from: Dominus NoxI think that the corporate pigs who deliberately target children for addiction to greasy, fatty foods that are designed to be addictive are as much child predators as the sick fucks who troll chatrooms looking for kids to have sex with

No. No, they're not.

Quote from: Dominus Noxthe corporations who set kids up to become addicts to this shit with carefully crafted advertising harm a lot more kids

No. No they don't.

Quote from: Dominus NoxYou want to hear something totally insane?

Almost every time I tune in to Channel Nox, that is indeed what I hear.

Quote from: Dominus NoxYou may now resume your usual me bashing.

Nice one, thanks mate. So, how's the diet going?

- Q

It's not a diet, it's "addiction recovery."

Quote from: James McMurrayIt's not a diet, it's "addiction recovery."

Hey, are you going to eat that Twinkie?





Just askin'... :D


TGA

I wish I wasn't going to, but the advertisers when I grew up had those really cool Twinkie ads in my comic books and Saturday morning cartoon shows and now I'm addicted.

Quote from: James McMurrayI wish I wasn't going to, but the advertisers when I grew up had those really cool Twinkie ads in my comic books and Saturday morning cartoon shows and now I'm addicted.

*Picture of Twinkie the Kid riding Dubya like a bronco removed due to slow response*

Following a post from RPGPundit on his blog suggesting I "make the case for the prosecution", I'm necroing this thread to suggest that we ban Dominus Nox.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianMaybe it is a cultural disconnect here.  As an American (and a naturalized one, at that), I have a basic assumption that I should be able to say what I want to.  That means that others should be afforded the same courtesy, even if they turn out to be assholes.  The community I live in puts limits on this ability for free speech, but these limits are (or at least should be) tied to actual potential harm.  

In principle, this is so, in practice, less so. There's the general principle of free speech, and there's the practice of where that speech is made.

For example, if you visit your buddy's house, and tell his wife, "nice tits, pity your kids are ugly," you may find that your buddy respects your freedom to say that, but asks you to leave his house and never come back.

If I go to church, though we have freedom of speech and freedom of worship in the country, probably standing there with tallit and teffilim and bellowing out "SHEMA YISRAEL!" - I'll be asked to leave.

If I go to court, and the judge makes a ruling, and I say, "that's a fucked-up ruling, judge," then probably I'll be charged with contempt of court, or at the least removed from the courtroom.

While speech should be free, that does not mean that we are obliged to put up with any damn thing said, and let the speaker stay if they offend us. Each place where people speak has certain rules and guidelines, often unwritten, about what's acceptable and what's not. No place is obliged to keep you around if you piss them off.

Now, this place is not someone's home, nor a church, nor yet a courtroom. Nonetheless, it's a place where people gather for a particular purpose. That purpose is to discuss roleplaying games with as wide a variety of gamers as possible. I've already spoken about how our conduct and posts here put off the female and homosexual part of the roleplaying population. That's bad enough. However, the continued presence of someone who openly advocates genocide, and whose only defence when called on it is, "well it's not genocide because that's for a race, and Moslems aren't a race," is something which has the potential to put off quite a wide range of gamers. It sure as shit puts me off.

As well as the good of the forum as a whole, there's our own personal dignity and sense of self-worth. It's simply not good to hang around with people you despise. For example, I was once befriended online by a gamer, who talked to me over a couple of years, we got along well and had a lot of laughs and interesting conversations. Then one day he told me how he'd slapped around his woman, he felt bad about it, but she brought it on herself. I talked to him for a bit and reassured him that it was, in fact, entirely his own fault - as a man, not a boy, he was entirely in control of his own actions, and these actions were shameful and cowardly. Now, any human can make mistakes in life, but this was, weeks afterwards, not acknowledged as a mistake. It was still all her fault. So this told me that the guy was going to do it again, and again, and again. So I cut that guy off, and never spoke to him again. I can't befriend a guy who slaps around his woman. It lowers me. I am less of a man just talking to him.

Likewise, the continued presence of a person who expresses blatant and vile racism, who openly advocates genocide, lowers me. I am less of a man just talking to him. Who does not feel a little sour and a tinge of shame when they realise they're talking to a person with such attitudes?

Dominus Nox should be banned from therpgsite. Alternately, he could be banned from the Off-Toic forum. I don't care what he thinks, only what he says - and he seems able to keep his vile racism in Off-Topic, so if he were kept out of there, whether by moderator fiat or some forum software function, that might do the trick.

Quote from: JimBobOzDominus Nox should be banned from therpgsite. Alternately, he could be banned from the Off-Toic forum. I don't care what he thinks, only what he says - and he seems able to keep his vile racism in Off-Topic, so if he were kept out of there, whether by moderator fiat or some forum software function, that might do the trick.

Based on his recent behavior, I agree that he should be banned from Off-Topic.  He's acerbic and crazy in the RPG board, but not as he is here in OT.

Quote from: JimBobOz...I'm necroing this thread to suggest that we ban Dominus Nox.

Well, if we're voting, I vote no.

Don't like him? IL him. Feel his presence lessens you as a man? Work through it. Trying to mold and shape this forum into what you, or anyone else, feels it should look like, is the surest way to kill it.

Quote from: JimBobOz...there's our own personal dignity and sense of self-worth.

Thank you for your concern, but I'll look after these things for myself.

Well if at least 10 to 20 more people put him on ignore, things might get more interesting in a good way .

- Ed C

QuoteLikewise, the continued presence of a person who expresses blatant and vile racism, who openly advocates genocide, lowers me. I am less of a man just talking to him. Who does not feel a little sour and a tinge of shame when they realise they're talking to a person with such attitudes?

More importantly, he lowers the overall perception of this website by a significant degree.  He brings all of us down, jsut by being here.  This is a site with an image problem already, I don't see as how keeping around a racist prick like Nox is going to help with that at all.  Pundit and Sett and such are just benign crazy, and they're too much for a lot of folks I've talked to about it to get over.  Adding a shithead like Nox is jsut too much.

QuoteDominus Nox should be banned from therpgsite. Alternately, he could be banned from the Off-Toic forum. I don't care what he thinks, only what he says - and he seems able to keep his vile racism in Off-Topic, so if he were kept out of there, whether by moderator fiat or some forum software function, that might do the trick.

And given Nox's general level of respect for any kind of authority, I'd say it's pretty damn obvious he'd start taking it outside of off-topic right damn quick if a forum ban were put in place.  


Personally, I think that the only reason not to ban the little shit head is the fact that it's exactly what he wants.  And I just never feel happy about obliging the desires of racist fucksticks.

JimBob I have a fairly detailed response which I will post later on (a little busy right now)...said response will probably not do any favours for the perception (online) some (most ?) folks have of me. I don't think I'll come of looking very good, *shrug* .

Regards,
David R

Quote from: JimBobOzI am less of a man just talking to him.

Here's an idea: don't talk to him.

Quote from: JimBobOzDominus Nox should be banned from therpgsite. Alternately, he could be banned from the Off-Toic forum. I don't care what he thinks, only what he says - and he seems able to keep his vile racism in Off-Topic, so if he were kept out of there, whether by moderator fiat or some forum software function, that might do the trick.

If someone does get a ban, it sure as hell better not be just for an issue only relevant to the Off Topic section of the forum.

I wasn't aware anyone on therpgsite had a negative perception of David R.

laffingboy, I don't think that trying to shape a website is a way to kill it. When RPGPundit started it, he tried to shape it by saying it'd have no moderation. He was trying to produce a certain kind of forum. And yet it's not dead.

Whatever we post to the place shapes it, whether we're trying to or not.

If we're voting, I vote no.

Sometimes I agree with Nox, sometimes I don't. His main probem seems to be an inability to form a sentence on any passionate issue without peppering it with vulgarities. But hell, Pundit does that, too. I don't agree with HIM all the time, either, but I don't see anyone saying we should ban Pundit.

Yes, I know, this is all about his views on brown people and Muslims (and Christians and Republicans, though really, those views don't seem to bring out the same torch-bearing crowds). He views them all about equally. But its his incivility that I imagine is the real problem, not the subjects. By that I mean, if he tried to have a reasoned dicsourse, he'd be granted a bit more lee-way - rightly or wrongly.

At any rate, I tend to read what he has to say, go "Huh" and move on, kinda like you'd do at the monkey-house at a zoo, for example. Has no bearing on me, personally, and after all, if we're going to be a place you can say what's on your miind without fear of reprisal, we should be able to say what's on our mind without fear of reprisal. And, as Koltar pointed out, we do have an IL function.

My .02Cr.

Quote from: hgjsHere's an idea: don't talk to him.

So if I come into your home, and tell your wife she has nice tits but your kids are ugly, or go into your church and loudly pray Jewishly, or go to your court room and tell the judge he's full of shit, you'll just not talk to me, and not ask me to leave?

Quote from: hgjsIf someone does get a ban, it sure as hell better not be just for an issue only relevant to the Off Topic section of the forum.

Off-Topic is the front porch of the house of the forum. You're having a party, everyone's having a nice chat, but there's this guy, every time he goes to the front porch, he yells at your Moslem neighbours and says he wants to kill them all.

You'd ask him to stay inside the house and not yell at the neighbours, right? And if he refused, to leave?

Of course, therpgsite is not anyone's home. It's more like a community centre. So imagine that. You're at a roleplaying games convention. There's this guy who when he's at the front of the convention hall, yells at the Moslem neighbours...

RPGPundit's "lawncrapper" analogy comes to mind. He was just talking about people being smelly and stupid. I'd add "blatantly racist" to that. If we're going to chuck gamers out because they're smelly dorks, why not because they're blatantly racist? If we chuck out Catpissman, why not chuck out Klansman?

Or do you want to keep Catpissman, too?

Some things never change.

Like self-proclaimed people's tribune JimBob trying to ban other people.

This sounds like a personal problem for some of the posters here. If we are truly looking at the damaging effects of posters on this board and its good image then there are much bigger fish to fry than Nox. If you have a personal problem put him on your IL or just, well, ignore him.

As to freedom of speech and the responsibility of civility...man, PKB.

I would vote not to ban Nox for many of the reasons other posters have already made but paramount, for me, is I just do not care one whit. I hardly interact with him and when I do, it is usually about gaming material (and I might add he is better behaved on those subjects than many other posters on this board). Now, I would not say I have befriended Nox and yes, I would go as far as to say his posts are repulsive and offensive, but I have trained myself to ignore him (I do not use an IL list). He is a poster at a board I am at. He, usually, keeps his agenda within the OT forum. That is where it belongs IMO. In the end, it just is not that big a deal to me.

Finally, if you are truly concerned about changing the image of the board, I suggest you start a thread on banning Pundit. ;) That would have a much larger effect.

Bill

Quote from: JimBobOzWhatever we post to the place shapes it, whether we're trying to or not.

I agree completely. I just think that the site should be shaped by posts, not by the absence of posts from people who've been deemed 'bad for the community'.

The site's gonna grow into whatever it's gonna grow into. I'd like to see more posts from the demographics you mentioned, because I'd like to see more posts from any demographic which shares our common interests. If those groups are being driven away by the actions of some of our current members, that's a shame, I guess. But trying to create some sort of 'emotional safe zone' for those groups is, I fear, counter-productive at best.

The ethos here seems to be 'give as good as you get'. People who can stand up for themselves will always be welcomed here, mainly because they won't give a rat's ass whether they're welcomed or not. They'll simply come in, put their feet up on the furniture, and make themselves at home. As we all did.

Oh, and thank you for bringing this up. It's a good debate for us all to have, I believe.

Pierce, if you are going to bring up Roman republican offices of state in your comment, at least get them right.

The popular tribunes did not ban people, the Censor did. The Censor drew up the lists of people who were fit for senatorial rank. The appointed Dictator had an extension of the Censor's power in being able to put people on the proscription (banning) list, and drive them forth from the city. The tribunes didn't have this power.

I am arguing that our Dictator, RPGPundit, ought to use his assumed Censorial powers to put Dominus Nox on the proscription lists.

Quote from: JimBobOzSo if I come into your home, and tell your wife she has nice tits but your kids are ugly, or go into your church and loudly pray Jewishly, or go to your court room and tell the judge he's full of shit, you'll just not talk to me, and not ask me to leave?

The second is spam.  People get banned here for that daily.  As for insulting a host or mouthing off to a judge, RPGPundit has demonstrated a willingness to tolerate people insulting him as long as they have some other contribution.

Quote from: JimBobOzOff-Topic is the front porch of the house of the forum. You're having a party, everyone's having a nice chat, but there's this guy, every time he goes to the front porch, he yells at your Moslem neighbours and says he wants to kill them all.

My opinion differs.  Off Topic is meaningless.  Its only purpose is to give people a place to talk about issues unrelated to the main purpose of the site, to stop irrelevant discussions from flooding the rest of the board.  If Domnius Nox is insulting Muslims in Off Topic but not on the boards that matter, then in my opinion Off Topic is serving its purpose well.

Wasn't there a thread about him banning him already ? Started by Pundit himself ?
 There was even a poll attached to it.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarWasn't there a thread about him banning him already ? Started by Pundit himself ?
 There was even a poll attached to it.

- Ed C.

There was. (http://therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4436)  At the time the poll was taken, only 3 people out of the 56 who voted wanted to ban him.

I'll say this as a person with Muslim relatives: the level of discourse on this site regarding Islam and Muslims is the highest I've seen on any forum I post to. I think that this is a direct result of Nox's presence.

Quote from: JimBobOzPierce, if you are going to bring up Roman republican offices of state in your comment, at least get them right.

The popular tribunes did not ban people, the Censor did. The Censor drew up the lists of people who were fit for senatorial rank. The appointed Dictator had an extension of the Censor's power in being able to put people on the proscription (banning) list, and drive them forth from the city. The tribunes didn't have this power.

You heard me.

I am against banning Nox.

QuoteThis sounds like a personal problem for some of the posters here. If we are truly looking at the damaging effects of posters on this board and its good image then there are much bigger fish to fry than Nox. If you have a personal problem put him on your IL or just, well, ignore him.

It's not a personal problem for me.  Personally, I couldn't care less if the little punk lives or dies.

It's a public problem.  I like this site, and there's some great people who post here.  I also know a lot of great people elsewhere, whom I'd love to see post here, but won't touch it with a ten foot pole, because they see fucksticks like Nox and assume the worst, and frankly, I can't judge them too harshly for that.

Quote from: J ArcaneIt's not a personal problem for me.  Personally, I couldn't care less if the little punk lives or dies.

It's a public problem.  I like this site, and there's some great people who post here.  I also know a lot of great people elsewhere, whom I'd love to see post here, but won't touch it with a ten foot pole, because they see fucksticks like Nox and assume the worst, and frankly, I can't judge them too harshly for that.

I guess what I was getting at was I have seen people (grubman and some designer guy) chased off the site due to game related posting having nothing to do with Nox. How many people do not sign up due to Nox is a tough one to call. If we make the decision to ban him because he is offensive then what about individuals who cannot carry a conversation without resorting to personal attacks? vulgarity? How racist is racist enough? I truly do not buy into the "Greater Good" argument. If that was the case, we would get a much bigger bang for banning Nisarg/Pundit.

To put it in the common parlance, "This is bullshit and you should know it".

Bill

QuoteIf that was the case, we would get a much bigger bang for banning Nisarg/Pundit.

I can't say as it would displease me to see him retire and some more measured individual like jrients take the reigns.  It would certainly do a lot for the site as well.

Quote from: J ArcaneI can't say as it would displease me to see him retire and some more measured individual like jrients take the reigns.  It would certainly do a lot for the site as well.

The concern then becomes what lies down that path. ;) I am not saying we cannot ban people, the founder of the site has stated that as an objective. He has admitted to an eventual need but I just do not see this poster as being that person, or,more to the point, the argument as presented does not warrant it.

If Nox was spreading this across the site, bringing it into RPG threads, design threads and such I would be fore front in the crusade to ban him. That has not been my experience but I do not exactly follow him around the site. As I said, my experience in such threads has been moderate...spooky moderate to the point where I feel one or the other is an act.

As to banning Pundit, at this point I wonder if it would do much good. TheRPGStie seems to be viewed as "his" site. Would replacing him help PR? Possibly. I would definitely be in favor of JRients. He seems a reasonable guy.

Bill

I would vote no on a ban. I believe he should be able to say what he wants, no matter how foolish or ignorant.

Of course there's no real danger of Nox being banned. We have set our standards pretty low here. Feedom of speech has a funny way of protecting the most repulsive of individuals...it's something all who cherish the concept have learnt to live with. I'm part of that crowd, even applying the principle in places where the stakes are so low - here on therpgsite.

There's also another reason, a more uncomfortable one - for me anyway -that Nox will not be banned. The fact is that what he says does not really bother many folks. Sure it could be that he's on the IL of a whole lot of people, but the amount of views on his threads where he more often than not encourages genocide against Muslims, tells a different story. Could be lurkers, that's possible and if that's the case, it could be that what they see, puts them off this place. Maybe.

I mean his last "What will England do", was particularly offensive to me. It starts off badly ....anything in OT that Nox's begins normally is...and then , soon after pork bombs and revenge fantasies about bombing the hell of another country , establishing chaos, and generally demonizing a whole group of  innocent people materialises on the thread. No reference to Nox advocating the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians - women, children, babies...doesn't matter, kill 'em all. Nobody mentions this. The thread does not become about what a racist fucker Nox is, but rather about the nuance of territorial border disputes. I mean for fucks sake, this guy just talked about killing innocent people...and nobody says a word except in passing...Nox wil be Nox.

It's funny, some folks go on about how JimBob is trying to play moral guardian and shit like that, but if he didn't confront Nox - and sure there are some who do - I doubt anyone would respond to the kind of shit he spews. Maybe I'm too close to this. After all, when he admires a group who would do me harm and advocates policies which would mean the death of many friends and relatives, I find it difficult to establish common ground on the rpg forum. I'm funny like that.

That's why it's so easy for folks to say, just put him on ignore. When someone advocates killing innocent folks who you are close too, I doubt, you would like to have a conversation with him about the weather or whether GURPS sucks or not. But I'm just one person. So this is a more of where I'm coming from rather than argument to ban the sack of shit.

Most folks who visit these boards do so - at least IME - because this site seems like a place where folks talk about the games they play. Freedom of speech, is kind of a joke. I mean, here it really means, You can be a wanker and won't be banned. But yet, most of the talk on rpgs has been robust and more friendly than expected. But then it comes to Nox and his rants, and it brings out the worst in us.

People have commented to me, that if they came here, they would spend all their time fighting with Nox, not because they can't use the fuckin' ignore function, but BECAUSE MOST OFTEN SPEECH LIKE HIS WARRANTS A RESPONSE, BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE ...fuck it, I'm rambling on here. The thing is folks don't want to spend time on an rpg board dueling with a racist. Some of us have to deal with that in real life.

But... I've shot my mouth off about how freedom of speech is the most important thing, in boards where the stakes are much higher...local (Malaysian) political boards..and it just does not sit wll with me, if this scumbag is banned. Every time I post, if this shithead is banned, I'll know that it went against a principle I claim to think the most important.

JimBob makes much sense and in the long run I know he will be proved right, but banning him JimBob....I don't care about the fuckin' free speech on this board..like I said the standard here is pretty low...but from where I come from (Malaysia), and I think you and droog, kinda of know what I'm getting at banning this fucker on free speech grounds, that just seems wrong. When a majority feel that maybe just maybe there should be some accountability on what gets posted here, then things may change or when they come to realize that maybe what he post is repulsive, but until then, the same old responses will be heard.

I hope you can make sense of this ramble.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThe thread does not become about what a racist fucker Nox is, but rather about the nuance of territorial border disputes.

Wait, so you're complaining that people largely ignored Dominus Nox's comments instead of the discussion devolving into a bout of finger-wagging? :raise:

No, I think David is saying that when it comes right down to it there are people here who agree with Nox. At least on an emotional level.

I see it too, David.

That's exactly my response.  I mean, at some point you just start ignoring what he says.  I used to work in the city (Chicago).  I'd walk by guys all the time who were spouting this crazy you-godless-heathens-are-all-going-to-hell or that nut-job-communist-will-save-us-all theory.  The first time by I went through all of the counter-arguments in my head.  The fifth time, I barely heard them.

On the anniversary of OIF, there were a bunch of anti-war protestors on one of the main corners here in town.  I heartily disagree with them, but I didn't stop to yell at them, or curse them out - I igonored them.

They're not as bad?  Why? They have a viewpoint that offends me deeply - to the point of being angry and feeling a response is needed. Then I see the pretty lights of the McDonalds and I lose all....Mmmm...Quarter Pounder...

It's why I think WK's toss off comment is so telling:

Quote from: WereKoalaYes, I know, this is all about his views on brown people and Muslims (and Christians and Republicans, though really, those views don't seem to bring out the same torch-bearing crowds).

It is interesting to note that everyone seems to focus on his "brown people" bigotry, but don't seem so upset when he bashes conservatives or Christians.

And that's why I'd vote no; because there's a strange, deep subtext in the discussion, certainly not conscious.  I bet if Nox limited himself to bashing conservatives, republicans, libertarians, Christians, OIF supporters, and naked capitalists, he wouldn't be so hated. It's that he doesn't have the right prejudices that brings him into crosshairs of so many.

Quote from: James J SkachIt is interesting to note that everyone seems to focus on his "brown people" bigotry, but don't seem so upset when he bashes conservatives or Christians.

Does he advocate killing conservatives and Christians like he does Muslims ? As for focusing on brown people bigotry, I've heard Nox say the same thing you just said.

Regards,
David R

Conservatives, Republicans, libertarians, Christians, the war machine and capitalists happen to have the upper hand at this moment in history. When Nox rails against those, people do treat him as simply a nut-job.

When Nox talks about genocide in Iran, there's a fair bit of agreement.

Quote from: David RI hope you can make sense of this ramble.

Regards,
David R

Actually, you make quite a lot of sense, David.  And I see where you are coming from.  It is personally difficult for me to "defend" Nox's ability to be an utter shithead.  As one of the "live free or die" crowd I also realize that there are going to be limits reached at which time my radical ideals will prove not to be practical for the survival of this site as a useful tool for discussion.  From my perspective that day has not come, and we are still small enough a community to police our own problems.

On the other hand, you have called me out on the second, perhaps most important, part of free speech, which is using it responsibly and doing my part to throw the digital rotten tomatoes at those who are being morons to keep them in check.  

I have to thank you because you've actually done that for me before when you pointed out that some thoughtless comment I had made did not reflect well on the site.  I agreed with you and I have tried in my own way to encourage a better kind of discussion as a result.  Could I do more to confront Nox when he says something stupid?  Yes, I could.  I am caught in the dilemma that I have a limited amount of time to devote to this site and I'd rather read and talk about games than the politics of some jackass on the Internet.  In fact, I try to avoid the Off Topic forum as a general rule, although obviously the issue of free speech is a hot button that sucks me in more than it probably should.  But I understand where you are coming from, and I hope that you will understand my position.  I generally ignore Nox not because I secretly agree with him, but because frankly the opinions of him and people like him don't matter to me in the setting of an Internet RPG discussion site.

One thing that bothers me about this whole thing is that I am sure this is *exactly* how Tangency led to the long slide to bad moderation on tBP.  The kinds of discussions in Off Topic naturally lead to more heated debates because they can strike at the heart of our identities far more readily than a discussion of your favorite RPG can.  I would suggest getting rid of Off Topic all together, but I know that it would only lead to this crap bleeding into the gaming forums.  But I have to wonder if we start banning people for stuff they say in Off Topic, when they are arguably productive in the gaming forums, that we will be starting down a long road that will end up in a place that I would prefer this site never go.


TGA

Quote from: hgjsMy opinion differs.  Off Topic is meaningless.  Its only purpose is to give people a place to talk about issues unrelated to the main purpose of the site, to stop irrelevant discussions from flooding the rest of the board.  If Domnius Nox is insulting Muslims in Off Topic but not on the boards that matter, then in my opinion Off Topic is serving its purpose well.

I agree.  Off Topic is buried way down the list after a large number of gaming related forums.  It is not our front porch.  It is apparently a necessary evil to keep the monkeys from flinging poo in the parts of the site that are critical to its core mission, namely good quality disussions about gaming.


TGA

Quote from: laffingboyOh, and thank you for bringing this up. It's a good debate for us all to have, I believe.

I'd also like to thank you JimBob.  I think that this discussion needs to be had.  It probably needs to be had again every once and a while to keep us on our toes.


TGA

Quote from: J ArcaneIt's a public problem.  I like this site, and there's some great people who post here.  I also know a lot of great people elsewhere, whom I'd love to see post here, but won't touch it with a ten foot pole, because they see fucksticks like Nox and assume the worst, and frankly, I can't judge them too harshly for that.

The problem is that probably someone would also identify you as a fuckstick who reflects badly on this site and keeps people away who might be productive members.  That's really nothing personal J, and the same can be said of any of a myriad of posters here who were banned from RPG.net for, in some degree or another, being assholes.  Where do we draw the line to determine who drives away too many of these mythical non-posters to warrant bannination?

That's what I find deeply ironic about this.  It seems that some people who have adopted an online persona of largely being an asshole are leading the charge to get rid of another poster for alienating people by being an asshole.


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianThat's what I find deeply ironic about this.  It seems that some people who have adopted an online persona of largely being an asshole are leading the charge to get rid of another poster for alienating people by being an asshole.


TGA

QFT! to the max.

As an aside on the David R's point of agreeing with Nox. I cannot speak for others but I have never agreed with Nox's OT topics nor his posts nor his general outlook on religion.life or the worlds so far as I can tell. When I oppose banning Nox, I do not do so to defend Nox but to try and stave off what I see as inevitable.

Understand, for me at least, I was always taught to consider the source.
 
Bill

Quote from: David RThere's also another reason, a more uncomfortable one - for me anyway -that Nox will not be banned. The fact is that what he says does not really bother many folks.

I know, and it's alarming to me, too.

I just don't know why we'd want the company of a guy who openly advocates genocide. But then, I'm the kind of guy who won't talk to guys who beat their wives, either - not after I find out, and have told them they're dogs.

That other people are probably quietly agreeing with him is depressing, but when it comes down to it, if you don't say it or do anything about it, I don't care about it. They have the sense, or the laziness, or the cowardice, to stay quiet - I'm happy with that. So long as they don't say it or do anything about it, I don't care what they think.

Quote from: David RPeople have commented to me, that if they came here, they would spend all their time fighting with Nox, not because they can't use the fuckin' ignore function, but BECAUSE MOST OFTEN SPEECH LIKE HIS WARRANTS A RESPONSE, BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE ...

Yes. There's some shit you just can't ignore.

Every one of us has our prejudices. We all have our racism and sexism and so on and so forth. We all have our abrasive moments, we're all occasionally arseholes to people. So a little bit of offence, fair enough, it's just part of the friction of the machinery of society - of a forum - who cares. But you have to draw the line somewhere. And that "somewhere" for me is when we reach the point where the guy's posts would be cheered at stormfront.org.

I'm honestly starting to feel uncomfortable at therpgsite because of this - because no-one speaks out.
"Fuck moderation! Let the community police itself!"
"Okay, then - police him. If he says something offensive, call him on it."
"Well, when he says we should kill all Moslems, that doesn't offend me. Or not enough to make the enormous effort of a single post saying so."

If the guy was being dogpiled every time he said something vile, there'd be no need to ban him. Silence indicates no opposition. You don't mind what he says. Maybe you even agree with it. That's what he reckons, anyway - he reckons he's the only one with the courage to openly say what everyone thinks anyway.

Quote from: David Rbut from where I come from (Malaysia), and I think you and droog, kinda of know what I'm getting at banning this fucker on free speech grounds, that just seems wrong.

Again, it's a matter of venue.

If free speech were only limited on the particular boards you visit, it wouldn't be an issue - you can just post somewhere else. But free speech is limited in all venues across Malaysia. Limiting it in one venue does not mean it's limited everywhere. Nox can go and post on stormfront.org. He doesn't have to post about killing millions of human beings here. He can do it in any one of thousands of places online. I'm not saying he shouldn't say his shit anywhere at all, I'm saying he shouldn't say it here.

Similarly, I don't think much of Christianity, and I think well of Judaism - but in a Catholic church on a Sunday morning is not the time and place for me to express those views. That the priest and parishoners don't let me stand up and abuse their faith is not a violation of my freedoms which will lead to the country becoming a dictatorship. It's just common fucking courtesy.

Some talk is appropriate in some venues, and some is not. That is not a gross violation of our freedoms. I happen to think that openly advocating genocide in a multicultural forum like we'd like therpgsite to be is not appropriate.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianBut I have to wonder if we start banning people for stuff they say in Off Topic, when they are arguably productive in the gaming forums, that we will be starting down a long road that will end up in a place that I would prefer this site never go.

Which is why I suggested the option of banning him from Off Topic only. If a guy is a dick on your front porch but alright inside the house, drag him off the fucking porch and into your house. If Jim is a cockhead when he drinks, he should stop drinking.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianIt seems that some people who have adopted an online persona of largely being an asshole are leading the charge to get rid of another poster for alienating people by being an asshole.

I don't care if he's an arsehole. I care if he's an arsehole who openly advocates genocide.

Quote from: David RDoes he advocate killing conservatives and Christians like he does Muslims ?

Why yes. Yes he does.

Quote from: JimBobOzI'm honestly starting to feel uncomfortable at therpgsite because of this - because no-one speaks out.
"Fuck moderation! Let the community police itself!"
"Okay, then - police him. If he says something offensive, call him on it."
"Well, when he says we should kill all Moslems, that doesn't offend me. Or not enough to make the enormous effort of a single post saying so."

If the guy was being dogpiled every time he said something vile, there'd be no need to ban him. Silence indicates no opposition. You don't mind what he says. Maybe you even agree with it. That's what he reckons, anyway - he reckons he's the only one with the courage to openly say what everyone thinks anyway.

Or maybe the reason they don't respond to him is because (unlike you) they've done the sensible thing and added him to their Ignore Lists.  Of course, that would require them to be more concerned with using this site for its intended purpose than with butting heads online.

Quote from: WerekoalaWhy yes. Yes he does.

Ban him for that, too.

Quote from: JimBobOzI know, and it's alarming to me, too.

I just don't know why we'd want the company of a guy who openly advocates genocide. But then, I'm the kind of guy who won't talk to guys who beat their wives, either - not after I find out, and have told them they're dogs.

I get that you mean well. But you're not keeping company with Noxious because you post on the same site. You're just posting on the same site.

Nox serves a purpose for me, at least. His wild swings at the trees help to flush the vermin out. I can see them as they run across the field in plain view.

I'm coming from the opposite angle from you. You don't care what people think as long as they don't say it. I think it's better if they say it and everybody can take their measure.

Quote from: WerekoalaWhy yes. Yes he does.

Even more reason to ban him. BTW got a link to where he advocates the killing of conservatives and Christians?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: droogI get that you mean well. But you're not keeping company with Noxious because you post on the same site. You're just posting on the same site.

I get that. But thing is, sometimes I post or I read something interesting here, and then I point someone to it. Then they see the link, and say, "what, therpgsite? That's RPGPundit's ranty boys' club, isn't it?" So they reject the place because of their impression of it - an impression which we create by the content and tone of our posts. We've already put off the women and the gays, pretty much, except for a token one here or there.

I just know that over time, it's going to turn into, "what, therpgsite? That's where those mad bastards post about killing millions of innocent civilians, yeah?" It's like SJGames, because of a few right-wing loons and rules rabbis, got itself a bad rep, put off a lot of posters.

So already I point people to interesting stuff here, and they don't even look because of the time they looked and saw RPGPundit saying women are all lying bitches, or someone talking about titfucking Nina the mod at rpg.net, that kind of shite. Why make it worse?

Quote from: droogNox serves a purpose for me, at least. His wild swings at the trees help to flush the vermin out. I can see them as they run across the field in plain view.

I'm coming from the opposite angle from you. You don't care what people think as long as they don't say it. I think it's better if they say it and everybody can take their measure.

I can understand that, it's why some years ago Victoria Police opposed the banning of the Paedophile's Association - they wanted to be able to keep an eye on the bastards.

But the point of the place is supposed to be to talk about rpgs, not flush out murderous racists.

Quote from: David REven more reason to ban him. BTW got a link to where he advocates the killing of conservatives and Christians?

Root around in here a bit:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4460&page=9

I'm pretty sure its in there somewhere. If not, damn close.

Quote from: JimBobOzIf the guy was being dogpiled every time he said something vile, there'd be no need to ban him. Silence indicates no opposition. You don't mind what he says. Maybe you even agree with it. That's what he reckons, anyway - he reckons he's the only one with the courage to openly say what everyone thinks anyway.

And see, I am of the opposite opinion. If you ignore every post he makes like that, every thread he starts like that, such comments will drop quickly into oblivion. Can you imagine how much a thread like this current one feeds his ego? Posting to his comments and threads accomplishes nothing except giving him a chest to beat against as he rubs against your leg. There are far better minds, worthy of comment and debate on this site.

Bill

Quote from: The Good AssyrianYes, I could.  I am caught in the dilemma that I have a limited amount of time to devote to this site and I'd rather read and talk about games than the politics of some jackass on the Internet.  In fact, I try to avoid the Off Topic forum as a general rule, although obviously the issue of free speech is a hot button that sucks me in more than it probably should.  But I understand where you are coming from, and I hope that you will understand my position.  I generally ignore Nox not because I secretly agree with him, but because frankly the opinions of him and people like him don't matter to me in the setting of an Internet RPG discussion site.

I understand completely, but the thing is, we should not have to worry about keeping the dickwards in check...or rather dickward, because frankly, he's the only one. I like checking in here during office hours, posting a little about games, bothering Sett a bit and generally just hanging out with fellow gamers.

Nox is not a problem when he talks about rpgs. Okay I have a problem with him, but that's because of what he says OT. I understand your concerns about moderation and free speech. I come from a country where very few place any emphasis on this concept. Money is what counts, fuck ideals. So I really get where you're coming from.

And you may not believe this, but just as the Pundit draws in many onlookers and maybe even folks who register and participate in this site, Nox's is a big turn off for many. I'm not sayin' that they will come in droves if he's kicked off...I'm just saying that the perception is, that we tolerate his behaviour.

I don't want to be the angry coloured guy calling for his ban, but I've had many conversations with folks in PM about politics, race etc. I respect their opinions, even if I don't share them, but this guy, he just keeps putting the shite out there. A year from now, he'll still be doing this.

You're one of the posters I respect TGA, I hope you don't mind me, going off on this little rant.

Regards,
David R

Interesting approach, HinterWelt.

Tell me, were you aware of mythusmage's topic ban? It's discussed here (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2322&). Essentially, mythusmage used to speak in favour of adult-child sexual relations. This disgusted quite a few people, and RPGPundit gave him a topic ban, saying,

Quote from: RPGPunditSomeone who disagrees with me will NEVER be at risk of a ban for that. Someone who is making statements that can end up being highly disruptive to the functioning of this board, whatever those statements are, could be if they aren't capable of shutting up about it.

I am puzzled as to why molesting children causes offence and people agree with a topic ban, and threatened full ban if the topic ban is broken, but advocating genocide doesn't cause the same offence.

It's okay talk about wanting to kill millions of children, but not to want to molest one of them?

I confess I find this morality confusing.

So, HinterWelt, do you support mythusmage's topic ban? In what way does his topic ban differ from the topic ban I'm suggesting on Dominus Nox? (Keep him out of Off-Topic forums) In what way does a suggestion that if he breaks the topic ban, he be fully-banned, differ from one guy to the other?

Or should we ask RPGPundit to let mythusmage start chatting about his views on adult-child sexual relations again?

Quote from: Werekoalahttp://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4460&page=9

I'm pretty sure its in there somewhere. If not, damn close.

Nope didn't find anything...surely it can't be so hard ? Did find this little gem though :

QuoteIf the "peaceful majority" of muslims do nothing to stop the extremists, then in the battle against the extremists they simply don't matter and might as well not exist.

Kinda of shows you were he's coming from.

Edit: I'm really interested in finding out, where he advocated the killing of conservatives and Christians.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: JimBobOzIt's okay talk about wanting to kill millions of children, but not to want to molest one of them?

I confess I find this morality confusing.

It's an American thing.  Sex squicks us out, violence, especially on a mass scale, doesn't faze us.

Quote from: JimBobOzInteresting approach, HinterWelt.

Tell me, were you aware of mythusmage's topic ban? It's discussed here (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2322&). Essentially, mythusmage used to speak in favour of adult-child sexual relations. This disgusted quite a few people, and RPGPundit gave him a topic ban, saying,

I am puzzled as to why molesting children causes offence and people agree with a topic ban, and threatened full ban if the topic ban is broken, but advocating genocide doesn't cause the same offence.

It's okay talk about wanting to kill millions of children, but not to want to molest one of them?

I confess I find this morality confusing.

So, HinterWelt, do you support mythusmage's topic ban? In what way does his topic ban differ from the topic ban I'm suggesting on Dominus Nox? (Keep him out of Off-Topic forums) In what way does a suggestion that if he breaks the topic ban, he be fully-banned, differ from one guy to the other?

Or should we ask RPGPundit to let mythusmage start chatting about his views on adult-child sexual relations again?

I was never talking about a topic ban. I was talking about a ban from the site. Personally, I could care less about area specific/topic bans.

And, despite you usual attack stance, I am neither in favor of genocide nor child molestation. I never said I was.

Bill

So you'd be happy with him having a topic-ban?

Quote from: David REdit: I'm really interested in finding out, where he advocated the killing of conservatives and Christians.

I may have just been taking his comments on them being a threat to civilization and that they should be fought and beaten at all costs to its logical extreme, but that was probably just me. Sorry 'bout that.

Quote from: JimBobOzSo you'd be happy with him having a topic-ban?

I would not vote against it.

Bill

He gets a verbal kicking every time he talks crap, so where's the problem? If anything he provides an opportunity to demonstrate that - overall - the forum is better than it is otherwise painted.

In light of his consistent snipes from my Ignore List (thanks everybody for quoting him, really), I elect not to comment on the prospect of banning Nox, though I think he is something of a turd on the coffee table at our little party here.

I will, however, take some umbrage at the suggestion that I must fight him tooth and nail at every turn to not be lumped in with him in the "murderous bigot" category. To take a page from our self-appointed guardian of good conversation, must I also argue against flat earth and brilliant ether theory every time they come up for it to be understood that they are absurd?

I'd vote for ban the fuckwit.  Not because of his bigotry and other isms but because he does drag his OT threadcrapping into rpg threads.

How often have you seen him wail on Cessna or Koltar or Christmas Ape for their supposed crimes - adding nothing to the topic in question but tainting every thread he "contributes" to with his particular brand of bile.

I used to be against any kind of ban for Nox, his four tirades and how he'd fit them into any topic were entertaining.  But he's gone from that into spouting  shite wherever he goes, it can't be anything but detrimental for this site.

Sure, he'd love to be banned from the site that claims it won't ban people, but I think it's in our best interests to give him what he wants in this instance.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianOne thing that bothers me about this whole thing is that I am sure this is *exactly* how Tangency led to the long slide to bad moderation on tBP.  The kinds of discussions in Off Topic naturally lead to more heated debates because they can strike at the heart of our identities far more readily than a discussion of your favorite RPG can.  I would suggest getting rid of Off Topic all together, but I know that it would only lead to this crap bleeding into the gaming forums.  But I have to wonder if we start banning people for stuff they say in Off Topic, when they are arguably productive in the gaming forums, that we will be starting down a long road that will end up in a place that I would prefer this site never go.


TGA

I think you got to the heart of the thing right there, Assyrian.

Show me that Nox is generally disrupting the site, in ways I have already warned him not to, by shitting all over a GURPS discussion or taking a thread about D&D and turning it into a diatribe against muslims without provocation, and then we've got something to talk about.

Nox going apeshit on the off-topic forums, in topics that he creates that are on-topic, really isn't something bannable.  The reason to ban him would then become "I really don't like what he says".

And let's face it, what Nox says sucks ass, when he's not talking about RPGs. And it unfortunately tends to taint the quality of anything he says, period. There have been times when I've looked at something Nox wrote that's RPG-related and thought "shit, I'd have really taken that seriously/been interested, if it hadn't been Nox who wrote that".

But if we're really about free thought on here, then that's exactly the kind of writing that has to be defended. As long as he's following the guidelines of where and how to write it (and doesn't violate the very very limited rules of the site on this regard by posting, say, hardcore porn or links to illegal sites), Nox has as much right to write his disgusting stupid rants, as Jrients has to write a thread about Star Wars.

RPG.net started with banning certain "extremists" who were saying things that almost everyone agreed was "banworthy", and ended up banning people for anything that the tiny minority in power dislike.  I won't go that way.

If Nox gets banned, it will be due to his own stupidity in breaking the rules/restrictions that have been placed upon him, not just because I don't like what he says (or anyone else doesn't like what he says).

RPGPundit

Quote from: The Good AssyrianI agree.  Off Topic is buried way down the list after a large number of gaming related forums.  It is not our front porch.  It is apparently a necessary evil to keep the monkeys from flinging poo in the parts of the site that are critical to its core mission, namely good quality disussions about gaming.


TGA

That is precisely the one and only reason I have an Off Topic forum.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditShow me that Nox is generally disrupting the site, in ways I have already warned him not to, by shitting all over a GURPS discussion or taking a thread about D&D and turning it into a diatribe against muslims without provocation, and then we've got something to talk about.

Show me that mythusmage was generally disrupting the site by shitting all over some rpg discussion with his talk of the inherent goodness of sexual relations between adults and children.

If we can ban paedophilia talk, I don't see why we can't ban genocide talk; if we can allow one, we should allow the other.

And for that matter, I can start posting up some hardcore pr0n, yeah? Sure, it might offend people, but so long as I only do it in Off-Topic that's okay, yeah? Or is a picture of a vulva more offensive than advocating genocide?

Quote from: JimBobOzI know, and it's alarming to me, too.

I just don't know why we'd want the company of a guy who openly advocates genocide. But then, I'm the kind of guy who won't talk to guys who beat their wives, either - not after I find out, and have told them they're dogs.

That other people are probably quietly agreeing with him is depressing, but when it comes down to it, if you don't say it or do anything about it, I don't care about it. They have the sense, or the laziness, or the cowardice, to stay quiet - I'm happy with that. So long as they don't say it or do anything about it, I don't care what they think.

I think most of the people arguing that Nox shouldn't be banned are not Ultrasecret Racists that are secretly agreeing with Nox's implicit statements about genocide. And I think its kind of wimpy to resort to that kind of rhetorical tactic.  Its right up there with "if you don't agree with us about suspending civil liberties, then you must secretly want the terrorists to win". Or "if you're against allowing the Police to search without a warrant, then you must have something to hide!"

QuoteEvery one of us has our prejudices. We all have our racism and sexism and so on and so forth. We all have our abrasive moments, we're all occasionally arseholes to people. So a little bit of offence, fair enough, it's just part of the friction of the machinery of society - of a forum - who cares. But you have to draw the line somewhere. And that "somewhere" for me is when we reach the point where the guy's posts would be cheered at stormfront.org.

I'm honestly starting to feel uncomfortable at therpgsite because of this - because no-one speaks out.
"Fuck moderation! Let the community police itself!"
"Okay, then - police him. If he says something offensive, call him on it."
"Well, when he says we should kill all Moslems, that doesn't offend me. Or not enough to make the enormous effort of a single post saying so."

I think this is happening not because people agree, or even because they are apathetic, but because Nox has been dogpiled so many times he has ZERO CREDIBILITY. Everyone knows at this point that he's an enormous shithead, ignorant as all fuck, and a cretin to boot, so they just gloss over anything he writes.

But hey, community policing begins with one. It could also be argued that essentially, Nox isn't getting dogpiled anymore because of his near-autistic ability to keep posting and posting blissfully unconcerned with the fact that everyone hates him.
If you really want to do something about it, you could personally make sure to start the dogpile every single time Nox makes one of his cretinous statements, and remind everyone else of their civic duty to "community police" the site.

QuoteWhich is why I suggested the option of banning him from Off Topic only. If a guy is a dick on your front porch but alright inside the house, drag him off the fucking porch and into your house. If Jim is a cockhead when he drinks, he should stop drinking.

I don't care if he's an arsehole. I care if he's an arsehole who openly advocates genocide.

I have noted my own opinions on this. However, I am willing to reconsider any opinion I hold as Admin here if I get enough feedback from respectable members of this site.
So if you want to try to push for this, I would suggest you go to the Help desk forum and start a poll about whether Nox should be banned, or one asking about whether repeated openly racist statements should be a bannable offence on the site.
Suficient commentaries, sufficiently well-argued, could change my mind about this, and if a vast majority support either of these measures, that would certainly cause me to give a second thought to the whole thing.

RPGPundit

Quote from: droogI'm coming from the opposite angle from you. You don't care what people think as long as they don't say it. I think it's better if they say it and everybody can take their measure.

Shit.. I agree with droog.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JimBobOzInteresting approach, HinterWelt.

I am puzzled as to why molesting children causes offence and people agree with a topic ban, and threatened full ban if the topic ban is broken, but advocating genocide doesn't cause the same offence.

It's okay talk about wanting to kill millions of children, but not to want to molest one of them?

I confess I find this morality confusing.?

And that there is a good argument. It would certainly be a strong argument for giving Nox a topic ban against discussing certain specific topics at least, if not for giving him a ban from Off-topic altogether.

RPGPundit

Quote from: StumpydaveI'd vote for ban the fuckwit.  Not because of his bigotry and other isms but because he does drag his OT threadcrapping into rpg threads.

How often have you seen him wail on Cessna or Koltar or Christmas Ape for their supposed crimes - adding nothing to the topic in question but tainting every thread he "contributes" to with his particular brand of bile.

I used to be against any kind of ban for Nox, his four tirades and how he'd fit them into any topic were entertaining.  But he's gone from that into spouting  shite wherever he goes, it can't be anything but detrimental for this site.

Sure, he'd love to be banned from the site that claims it won't ban people, but I think it's in our best interests to give him what he wants in this instance.

Dave, please point out to me recent occasions (as in, the last month or so) where he's done the above, after I had specifically warned him about it, in particular regarding Koltar, who was one of the specific people I'd warned him to stop shitting on in that way.

If you can show me that he's been threadcrapping RPG threads with off-topic personal attacks, then you're onto something. I hadn't seen any lately, but then I'm on vacation, and reading far fewer threads than what I usually do.

RPGpundit

Quote from: JimBobOzShow me that mythusmage was generally disrupting the site by shitting all over some rpg discussion with his talk of the inherent goodness of sexual relations between adults and children.

If we can ban paedophilia talk, I don't see why we can't ban genocide talk; if we can allow one, we should allow the other.

And for that matter, I can start posting up some hardcore pr0n, yeah? Sure, it might offend people, but so long as I only do it in Off-Topic that's okay, yeah? Or is a picture of a vulva more offensive than advocating genocide?

Again, you might have a very decent argument for a topic-ban there.

Quote from: RPGPunditShit.. I agree with droog.

I think that's twice now....

Well, give the fucker a topic-ban, then. Probably easier just to ban him from Off-Topic altogether. I'm sure the forum software allows you to do that - let poster X only see forums Y and Z. Ask your tech admins.

I'd ban him from Off-Topic altogether rather than just topic-ban him, because it's a lot less work than figuring out the exact terms of the ban, and then deciding whether this or that post violates the ban or not. Plus, the guy's only human - if he sees a post or thread that brings the topic up, he'll post to it. Human nature. Take the temptation away.

Then if he posts off-topic stuff in rpg threads, well, that's easy - no-one gets to blather on with stuff unrelated to the thread topic all the time. Focus and direction and stuff.

I've decided to go ahead and do another public consultation thread  (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5583)in the help desk, on this very subject.

Go vote and make your arguments if you care to. I will consider them all.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditDave, please point out to me recent occasions (as in, the last month or so) where he's done the above, after I had specifically warned him about it, in particular regarding Koltar, who was one of the specific people I'd warned him to stop shitting on in that way.

If you can show me that he's been threadcrapping RPG threads with off-topic personal attacks, then you're onto something. I hadn't seen any lately, but then I'm on vacation, and reading far fewer threads than what I usually do.

RPGpundit

How many times do you have to warn someone about a behavior before you finally decide that maybe he's just not going to listen?

I mean, how many people have become his latest threadcrap target, just in the time I've been on the site?  I can't really count them all any more.  I'm sure I've been a target myself, but I've had him ILed for so long I'd not really noticed.


I don't think a topic ban will do fuck all for the same reason that your warnings have done fuck all.  Much like how it's always been just a matter of time before he finds some new target poster to stalk across the boards, it's going to be jsut as much of a matter of time before he just can't help shouting about killing all the darkies.

Quote from: RPGPunditI think most of the people arguing that Nox shouldn't be banned are not Ultrasecret Racists that are secretly agreeing with Nox's implicit statements about genocide. And I think its kind of wimpy to resort to that kind of rhetorical tactic.  Its right up there with "if you don't agree with us about suspending civil liberties, then you must secretly want the terrorists to win". Or "if you're against allowing the Police to search without a warrant, then you must have something to hide!"

Look I never said that people who are arguing that Nox shouldn't be banned are secretly agreeing with Nox's implicit statements about genocide. In fact I agreed that freedom of speech is designed to protect the kind of speech Nox is so fond of. So, let's drop this bullshit line of argument, 'kay.

Regards,
David R

No you didn't, David.

You did say, in a few more words, that no-one argues with Nox's repugnant views because we're not offended by his calls for race-based genocide.

Quote from: David RThere's also another reason, a more uncomfortable one - for me anyway -that Nox will not be banned. The fact is that what he says does not really bother many folks. Sure it could be that he's on the IL of a whole lot of people, but the amount of views on his threads where he more often than not encourages genocide against Muslims, tells a different story.

I'm really trying to come up with a good and reasoned response here, and I generally find your posts really insightful and your campaigns interesting, but if I've got to fight against every dumbfuck thing that Nox says just to win the benefit of your doubt, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

Well... I think what David R's saying is more like, "if you comment at all in a thread started by Nox where he rips of Moslems, etc, and you don't knock him down, then we're going to wonder if you agree with him or not."

If you just plain pay no attention to the non-rpg stuff old Nox comes up with, then we can't really judge anything about your attitudes. But if you jump into some thread where Nox is going, "rargh rargh ragheads must die also the sky is kinda blue today," and your response to that is, "actually the sky is kinda cloudy," well...

David R's initial comment was that Nox start a really racist thread, and people's comments are not about his racism, but about minor side details of his comments. It's like "the elephant in the room" or something. If you never go into the room, well then we can't judge what you think about the elephant. But if you go into the room, and walk gently around the edges of the elephant, touching everything else in the room...

Quote from: JimBobOzWell... I think what David R's saying is more like, "if you comment at all in a thread started by Nox where he rips of Moslems, etc, and you don't knock him down, then we're going to wonder if you agree with him or not."

If you just plain pay no attention to the non-rpg stuff old Nox comes up with, then we can't really judge anything about your attitudes. But if you jump into some thread where Nox is going, "rargh rargh ragheads must die also the sky is kinda blue today," and your response to that is, "actually the sky is kinda cloudy," well...

David R's initial comment was that Nox start a really racist thread, and people's comments are not about his racism, but about minor side details of his comments. It's like "the elephant in the room" or something. If you never go into the room, well then we can't judge what you think about the elephant. But if you go into the room, and walk gently around the edges of the elephant, touching everything else in the room...

Or start making cracks about dropping "pork bombs" . . .

Quote from: J ArcaneHow many times do you have to warn someone about a behavior before you finally decide that maybe he's just not going to listen?

And I am sure that a similar argument could have been used to justify your own banning from RPG.net.  

That's whole my point.  Nox has expressed amazingly unpopular views about politics and religion while being an asshole to boot.  Now people who disagree with his opinions want to ban him.  That is worrisome to me not because I think that Nox's posts are valuable, but rather because if this goes through then we will have to start drawing up a list of posters too unpopular to live.  And you, my friend, may very well one day end up on that list.  So may I.  I would prefer to stop that process from happening.

Jesus Christ, it truly boggles my mind that it is largely those who constantly bitch and moan about how they were unfairly excluded from the RPG.net community for expressing unpopular opinions and acting like assholes who are blind to this.


TGA

Quote from: JimBobOzIf you just plain pay no attention to the non-rpg stuff old Nox comes up with, then we can't really judge anything about your attitudes. But if you jump into some thread where Nox is going, "rargh rargh ragheads must die also the sky is kinda blue today," and your response to that is, "actually the sky is kinda cloudy," well...

Yes.  Perhaps we need a commissar to keep track of the purity of our postings.  I am sure that you would like to see that.  You seem to be applying for the position.

You know, what really chaps my hide is that you are the one always going on about "Cheetoism" and the dangers of taking your hobby too seriously.  Here's a thought.  Maybe by doing this you are making this stupid fuck much more relevant than he deserves to be.

Maybe you should just go eat some Cheetos.


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianJesus Christ, it truly boggles my mind that it is largely those who constantly bitch and moan about how they were unfairly excluded from the RPG.net community for expressing unpopular opinions and acting like assholes who are blind to this.

Maybe I'm a crusty old cynic, but it doesn't surprise me at all.

Quote from: J ArcaneOr start making cracks about dropping "pork bombs" . . .

Yeah, because making a tasteless joke should equal bannination... :rolleyes:

By that standard we are all fucked.


TGA

A startling number of those "unpopular opinions" were "rpg.net should maybe be about roleplaying games", "Tangency is killing this site", and the like. At least as far as I'm aware.

Even so, I manage to keep my shit together on a day-to-day basis over there. Does that mean I'm allowed to suggest he's a negative feature of the site?

Quote from: droogI'm coming from the opposite angle from you. You don't care what people think as long as they don't say it. I think it's better if they say it and everybody can take their measure.

Because it needed to be said again.


TGA

Quote from: Christmas ApeEven so, I manage to keep my shit together on a day-to-day basis over there. Does that mean I'm allowed to suggest he's a negative feature of the site?

You can say whatever you like.  As can JimBob.  I think that he is a negative feature as well, but I think that our moderation policy is too much of a positive feature to change on his account.


TGA

Quote from: JimBobOzI don't care if he's an arsehole. I care if he's an arsehole who openly advocates genocide.

So we *will* be needing that team of lawyers to legally differentiate between "incitement to genocide" and being a "mouth-breathing moron" then.


TGA

I agree with TGA. From the moment I decided it wasa waste of time and giving him an undeserved attentio, I never take part in a OT topic started by Nox, or in which I see Nox taking part.

Don't ban him, just let him rot alone.

Quote from: David RYou're one of the posters I respect TGA, I hope you don't mind me, going off on this little rant.

Regards,
David R

Thanks, and I don't mind at all, David.  You have made some really good points and given me a lot to think about.


TGA

Quote from: JimBobOzWell... I think what David R's saying is more like, "if you comment at all in a thread started by Nox where he rips of Moslems, etc, and you don't knock him down, then we're going to wonder if you agree with him or not."

If you just plain pay no attention to the non-rpg stuff old Nox comes up with, then we can't really judge anything about your attitudes. But if you jump into some thread where Nox is going, "rargh rargh ragheads must die also the sky is kinda blue today," and your response to that is, "actually the sky is kinda cloudy," well...

David R's initial comment was that Nox start a really racist thread, and people's comments are not about his racism, but about minor side details of his comments. It's like "the elephant in the room" or something. If you never go into the room, well then we can't judge what you think about the elephant. But if you go into the room, and walk gently around the edges of the elephant, touching everything else in the room...

Well, that's it.  Might as well start the banning of Me.

I went to that thread the WereKoala thought Nox might have advocated killing Christians (he does not in that thread). I found posts I hadn't even remembered.  In fact, JimBob jokes in that very thread how I must be ashamed to have posted something with which Nox agrees.

All done not because I agree with Nox, but because the arguments against him were, IMHO, stupid arguments. It's not necessary to flame the Catholics to prove to Nox that to advocate Muslim genocide is insanely stupid and inhuman.

So, there I am in a thread (which was started by Pundy, BTW) seeming to defend Nox. Senator McCarthyBobOz, ban me, motherfucker.

Just out of curiosity - Does anyone Know Nox's real name?

 He had close to 5 different sock puppets on other forums.

 Does anyone on this forum think they might have gamed with him?
 Met him by accident at a game convention, but you didn't know it was "him" at the time?

 The thing is, I'm pretty sure I've met Dr. Rotwang at some GenCon - but I didn't know him yet. Somebody on rpg.net said publicly they were arrested by me a couple of years ago at either GenCon or ORIGINS.

 Has anyone actually met him ? Does he still game at all?


- Ed C.

I'm against banning him, for several reasons.

Quote from: Christmas ApeNo you didn't, David.

You did say, in a few more words, that no-one argues with Nox's repugnant views because we're not offended by his calls for race-based genocide.

I'm really trying to come up with a good and reasoned response here, and I generally find your posts really insightful and your campaigns interesting, but if I've got to fight against every dumbfuck thing that Nox says just to win the benefit of your doubt, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

Fair enough CA. Your response is kind of how I would like folks who participate in Nox's thread to respond to him...at least as a preamble. Can you dig it ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: KoltarSomebody on rpg.net said publicly they were arrested by me a couple of years ago at either GenCon or ORIGINS.

Come again?

Quote from: KoltarThe thing is, I'm pretty sure I've met Dr. Rotwang at some GenCon - but I didn't know him yet.

I've only been twice, once in '06 and once in...'04 I think.  Wore The Tie both times.

Actually, in '04, it was The Skinny Tie.  In '06 it was The Other Tie.

EDIT: Oh, yeah.  As regards Nox: may I again invoke the "monkey whacking off at the zoo" metaphor.  I just ignore him and go look at the llamas.

In reference to Koltar arresting people: Koltar, big ol' Klingon nerd, Klingon charity jail.  Z'at right, Koltar?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityCome again?

 Pierce ,

 You are on one of the other forums that I am on. That Klingon get-up? I wear it for charity events. There has been a Jail & Bail for charity run by the "Klingons"  the past 7 years at GenCon. I've worked that table/event all 7 years.
 Last year , I believe we raised $5,000 for a kids charity. (I'll have to look at my old notes)
SO, someone who posts on the Big Purple & Pink could very well have been "arrested" by me while at  GenCon or ORIGINS.

 Sorry, for the off-topic derail there folks.

- Ed C.

That's okay, Koltar... this thread has wandered far and wide. I'm sure your little side trek was a welcome breath of fresh air.

Besides, the topic is a retread anyway, only now with more accusations of Nox love for added value.

Having had my garage set fire to once and recieving death threats in my early BBS/internet days, I'm quite careful about letting my real name out.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!In reference to Koltar arresting people: Koltar, big ol' Klingon nerd, Klingon charity jail.  Z'at right, Koltar?

 You are correct sir!!

 Looks like we posted within minutes of each other.

Just got home after a really crummy shift at work.

- Ed C.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianYou can say whatever you like.  As can JimBob.  I think that he is a negative feature as well, but I think that our moderation policy is too much of a positive feature to change on his account.


TGA

Assyrian, you're saying so many sensible things in this thread, that I'd have to keep responding to each of your posts and saying, "I agree." I'm not used to that. Keep it up. :)

Quote from: RPGPunditDave, please point out to me recent occasions (as in, the last month or so) where he's done the above, after I had specifically warned him about it, in particular regarding Koltar, who was one of the specific people I'd warned him to stop shitting on in that way.

If you can show me that he's been threadcrapping RPG threads with off-topic personal attacks, then you're onto something. I hadn't seen any lately, but then I'm on vacation, and reading far fewer threads than what I usually do.

RPGpundit

OK.  All of these are from March or April.

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=92437#post92437

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=89465#post89465

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=87837#post87837

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=84430#post84430

All from rpg topics as opposed to Off topic stuff (which is more of an argument between him and poster X).  However all of them happened after he was warned not to arbitrarily attack people.

I'm conflicted on the subject, really.

So far I've been working on the "ignore him and he might shut up" approach. I mean, I almost wrote a reply post to his thing about pork bombs pointing out that a) in such a scenario, Islamic law would not prohibit Muslims from touching pork so it wouldn't work anyway and b) he was a fuckwit. But then I realised that this would only lead to him posting more on the subject. This policy may be misguided, I don't know.

I wouldn't be crying myself to sleep if he got banned, but I think much can be achieved by either ignoring his puerile wannabe-shocking bigotry and/or showering him with belittling derision.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambAssyrian, you're saying so many sensible things in this thread, that I'd have to keep responding to each of your posts and saying, "I agree." I'm not used to that. Keep it up. :)

Thanks!  :D


TGA

Quote from: Dominus NoxHaving had my garage set fire to once and recieving death threats in my early BBS/internet days...

Well you *are* a charming person, after all.


TGA

As everytime before, I´m against a ban.

Quote from: StumpydaveOK.  All of these are from March or April.

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=92437#post92437

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=89465#post89465

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=87837#post87837

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=84430#post84430

All from rpg topics as opposed to Off topic stuff (which is more of an argument between him and poster X).  However all of them happened after he was warned not to arbitrarily attack people.

Your second and third link actually make a better case for disciplining Koltar, since he was asked not to get up in Nox's grill.

And to be honest, if your links are the worst Nox has been up to then things are nearly as bad as everyone is making them out to be.

I'm sorry jrients, I need you to repeat your first sentence. I had something retarded in my eyes.

'cause it really looks like you're telling us Koltar's not allowed to respond to some RPG related threads because The Magical Sky Pixies With Guitars And Shit can't keep their hate boners in their fucking pants.

I don't see anything from Koltar but a response on a topic he's also interested - GURPS sci-fi and Traveller specifically - for which the Magical Sky Pixies do their usual thing. The usual thing they were asked not to do.

Quote from: Christmas ApeI'm sorry jrients, I need you to repeat your first sentence. I had something retarded in my eyes.

'cause it really looks like you're telling us Koltar's not allowed to respond to some RPG related threads because The Magical Sky Pixies With Guitars And Shit can't keep their hate boners in their fucking pants.

I don't see anything from Koltar but a response on a topic he's also interested - GURPS sci-fi and Traveller specifically - for which the Magical Sky Pixies do their usual thing. The usual thing they were asked not to do.

While I can't hold a candle to the Ape's colorful expression, I agree with his assessment of the second and third link.

Unless you consider responding to an RPG related post with RPG information getting up in his grill solely based on the original poster. It's not like Koltar was untoward in any way. Does this mean Koltar can't respond to any thread once The Magical Sky Pixies With Guitars And Shit post, or is it just threads started by The Magical Sky Pixies With Guitars And Shit?

If this is where this is going, I want to change my vote. Since I can't, I'm going to start using Ape's approach.

Shit.  I was not clear enough.  I'm not saying that we should discipline Koltar.  The only point I was trying to make is that the first thing that came to mind in those threads was "Koltar's in a Nox thread?  WTF?  I thought we had some sort of deal keeping those two on opposite sides of the room?"  I'm not advocating harshing on anyone.  Sorry to rile you up with an ill-phrased remark!

Can I make an observation?  Part of the problem with this whole situation is that half the folks are arguing about Nox's situation in particular and half are arguing about generalities.  Yes, we want consistent modding on the board, but I also support looking at the context of each admin action.  Part of the context in Nox's case is that I perceive that he has settled down somewhat in the past few months.  Yes, he continues to be an idiot.  Yes, he continues to say stupid things.  But compared to previously, his blatherings look like background noise.  And I find him ignorable much of the time, even though (unlike all y'all) I don't have the option of putting him on IL.

And maybe that's what is freaking me out here.  Why aren't more folks just ILing the guy?  He grates on me, but I can tolerate him without using an IL.

One last thing:  No one does any disciplining on this site except for Pundit.  Unless you want to count that I ban spammers.  Even if you thought I was an idiot for wanting to smack around some user the discussion would be theoretical because Pundit is the only one who does the smacking.

Quote from: jrientsYour second and third link actually make a better case for disciplining Koltar, since he was asked not to get up in Nox's grill.

And to be honest, if your links are the worst Nox has been up to then things are nearly as bad as everyone is making them out to be.

I stuck purposefully to rpg discussions because I didn't think it was fair or relevant to wail on Nox for posts where he was worse but there was a definite element of antagonism from all sides.

However given the history between Nox and Koltar, and the warning given by Pundit to both of them, Koltar managed to keep his discussions civil and relevant whilst Nox didn't.  I don't recall either of them being told they couldn't participate in the same thread.  Just to not go out of each others way to snipe.

I usually try to be civil.
 Some might have misinterpreted this as "sucking up".
 There was a part thread where Pundit said to Nox - that I/Koltar could post in any thread I wanted to . (just like anybody else)

 One of those posts cited  I think I was responding to something that David Johansen said. (in a friendly way , note )

 I am trying to fit within the boundaries or parameters that Pundit gave me a while ago.

- Ed C.

Constant reminders to someone that you are ignoring them is, IMO, most definitely "getting up in their grill."

Quote from: KoltarI usually try to be civil.
 Some might have misinterpreted this as "sucking up".
 There was a part thread where Pundit said to Nox - that I/Koltar could post in any thread I wanted to . (just like anybody else)

 One of those posts cited  I think I was responding to something that David Johansen said. (in a friendly way , note )

 I am trying to fit within the boundaries or parameters that Pundit gave me a while ago.

- Ed C.

And, and this is a very fucking important question: do you feel like you are being stalked by Nox?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd, and this is a very fucking important question: do you feel like you are being stalked by Nox?

RPGPundit

 NO , I don't.

 Wasn't expecting that question.

If an individual acting strangely shows up at the Mall I work at and I had to call the police and Mall security  - I'll let you know.

 Since what I mostly see is a thin line that says : You have this user on ignore.
 I only see his comments when people quote him.

- Ed C.

Quote from: WerekoalaRoot around in here a bit:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4460&page=9

I'm pretty sure its in there somewhere. If not, damn close.

He doesn't even scream "Death to Muslims!!!" in that one, much less threaten the lives of any large group.

Quote from: James McMurrayHe doesn't even scream "Death to Muslims!!!" in that one, much less threaten the lives of any large group.

Actually the thread you quoted was supposed to be an example of where Nox called for the death of conservatives and Christians. He doesn't.

Regards,
David R

As I said, I was mistaken. But you could reasonably infer, given his attitude to other groups, that the need  to "beat them at any cost" could lead that direction.

Quote from: WerekoalaAs I said, I was mistaken. But you could reasonably infer, given his attitude to other groups, that the need  to "beat them at any cost" could lead that direction.

When all else fails, blame liberal bias, whether there's any truth to it or not, right?

If I'm remembering my playbook right anyway . . .

Quote from: WerekoalaAs I said, I was mistaken. But you could reasonably infer, given his attitude to other groups, that the need  to "beat them at any cost" could lead that direction.

Sorry, I missed that it had already been covered. I'll have to disagree with you that saying we should beat them at any cost is a cry for mass murder. It's a cry for victory, with no emphasis given to preferred tactics, but the "at any cost" indicates that there are costs involved, and could imply the moral costs of mass murder should be taken into account when straategizing.

I don't think this discussion is really helping anything, to be honest. How many discussions and threads about Nox do we really need.

Generally, I'm against banning the guy. He's a pain in the ass, but spending all this time talking about him is an even bigger one. I don't think he causes half the stink these threads do. He's self-parodying. Leave it be.

Quote from: Thanatos02He's self-parodying.

That's probably the most concise and fitting description I've ever seen for him.

Quote from: JimBobOzInteresting approach, HinterWelt.

Tell me, were you aware of mythusmage's topic ban? (snip)

And I was stupid. Everybody has something monumentally dumb they want to say, and that was mine. But my stupidity really has nothing to do with Nox's. Consider his crimes on their merits.

(Though you haven't lived until your cat wants you to father her babies. :eek: )

Quote from: J ArcaneWhen all else fails, blame conservative bias, whether there's any truth to it or not, right?

fify