Quote from: laffingboyOh, and thank you for bringing this up. It's a good debate for us all to have, I believe.

I'd also like to thank you JimBob.  I think that this discussion needs to be had.  It probably needs to be had again every once and a while to keep us on our toes.


TGA

Quote from: J ArcaneIt's a public problem.  I like this site, and there's some great people who post here.  I also know a lot of great people elsewhere, whom I'd love to see post here, but won't touch it with a ten foot pole, because they see fucksticks like Nox and assume the worst, and frankly, I can't judge them too harshly for that.

The problem is that probably someone would also identify you as a fuckstick who reflects badly on this site and keeps people away who might be productive members.  That's really nothing personal J, and the same can be said of any of a myriad of posters here who were banned from RPG.net for, in some degree or another, being assholes.  Where do we draw the line to determine who drives away too many of these mythical non-posters to warrant bannination?

That's what I find deeply ironic about this.  It seems that some people who have adopted an online persona of largely being an asshole are leading the charge to get rid of another poster for alienating people by being an asshole.


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianThat's what I find deeply ironic about this.  It seems that some people who have adopted an online persona of largely being an asshole are leading the charge to get rid of another poster for alienating people by being an asshole.


TGA

QFT! to the max.

As an aside on the David R's point of agreeing with Nox. I cannot speak for others but I have never agreed with Nox's OT topics nor his posts nor his general outlook on religion.life or the worlds so far as I can tell. When I oppose banning Nox, I do not do so to defend Nox but to try and stave off what I see as inevitable.

Understand, for me at least, I was always taught to consider the source.
 
Bill

Quote from: David RThere's also another reason, a more uncomfortable one - for me anyway -that Nox will not be banned. The fact is that what he says does not really bother many folks.

I know, and it's alarming to me, too.

I just don't know why we'd want the company of a guy who openly advocates genocide. But then, I'm the kind of guy who won't talk to guys who beat their wives, either - not after I find out, and have told them they're dogs.

That other people are probably quietly agreeing with him is depressing, but when it comes down to it, if you don't say it or do anything about it, I don't care about it. They have the sense, or the laziness, or the cowardice, to stay quiet - I'm happy with that. So long as they don't say it or do anything about it, I don't care what they think.

Quote from: David RPeople have commented to me, that if they came here, they would spend all their time fighting with Nox, not because they can't use the fuckin' ignore function, but BECAUSE MOST OFTEN SPEECH LIKE HIS WARRANTS A RESPONSE, BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE ...

Yes. There's some shit you just can't ignore.

Every one of us has our prejudices. We all have our racism and sexism and so on and so forth. We all have our abrasive moments, we're all occasionally arseholes to people. So a little bit of offence, fair enough, it's just part of the friction of the machinery of society - of a forum - who cares. But you have to draw the line somewhere. And that "somewhere" for me is when we reach the point where the guy's posts would be cheered at stormfront.org.

I'm honestly starting to feel uncomfortable at therpgsite because of this - because no-one speaks out.
"Fuck moderation! Let the community police itself!"
"Okay, then - police him. If he says something offensive, call him on it."
"Well, when he says we should kill all Moslems, that doesn't offend me. Or not enough to make the enormous effort of a single post saying so."

If the guy was being dogpiled every time he said something vile, there'd be no need to ban him. Silence indicates no opposition. You don't mind what he says. Maybe you even agree with it. That's what he reckons, anyway - he reckons he's the only one with the courage to openly say what everyone thinks anyway.

Quote from: David Rbut from where I come from (Malaysia), and I think you and droog, kinda of know what I'm getting at banning this fucker on free speech grounds, that just seems wrong.

Again, it's a matter of venue.

If free speech were only limited on the particular boards you visit, it wouldn't be an issue - you can just post somewhere else. But free speech is limited in all venues across Malaysia. Limiting it in one venue does not mean it's limited everywhere. Nox can go and post on stormfront.org. He doesn't have to post about killing millions of human beings here. He can do it in any one of thousands of places online. I'm not saying he shouldn't say his shit anywhere at all, I'm saying he shouldn't say it here.

Similarly, I don't think much of Christianity, and I think well of Judaism - but in a Catholic church on a Sunday morning is not the time and place for me to express those views. That the priest and parishoners don't let me stand up and abuse their faith is not a violation of my freedoms which will lead to the country becoming a dictatorship. It's just common fucking courtesy.

Some talk is appropriate in some venues, and some is not. That is not a gross violation of our freedoms. I happen to think that openly advocating genocide in a multicultural forum like we'd like therpgsite to be is not appropriate.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianBut I have to wonder if we start banning people for stuff they say in Off Topic, when they are arguably productive in the gaming forums, that we will be starting down a long road that will end up in a place that I would prefer this site never go.

Which is why I suggested the option of banning him from Off Topic only. If a guy is a dick on your front porch but alright inside the house, drag him off the fucking porch and into your house. If Jim is a cockhead when he drinks, he should stop drinking.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianIt seems that some people who have adopted an online persona of largely being an asshole are leading the charge to get rid of another poster for alienating people by being an asshole.

I don't care if he's an arsehole. I care if he's an arsehole who openly advocates genocide.

Quote from: David RDoes he advocate killing conservatives and Christians like he does Muslims ?

Why yes. Yes he does.

Quote from: JimBobOzI'm honestly starting to feel uncomfortable at therpgsite because of this - because no-one speaks out.
"Fuck moderation! Let the community police itself!"
"Okay, then - police him. If he says something offensive, call him on it."
"Well, when he says we should kill all Moslems, that doesn't offend me. Or not enough to make the enormous effort of a single post saying so."

If the guy was being dogpiled every time he said something vile, there'd be no need to ban him. Silence indicates no opposition. You don't mind what he says. Maybe you even agree with it. That's what he reckons, anyway - he reckons he's the only one with the courage to openly say what everyone thinks anyway.

Or maybe the reason they don't respond to him is because (unlike you) they've done the sensible thing and added him to their Ignore Lists.  Of course, that would require them to be more concerned with using this site for its intended purpose than with butting heads online.

Quote from: WerekoalaWhy yes. Yes he does.

Ban him for that, too.

Quote from: JimBobOzI know, and it's alarming to me, too.

I just don't know why we'd want the company of a guy who openly advocates genocide. But then, I'm the kind of guy who won't talk to guys who beat their wives, either - not after I find out, and have told them they're dogs.

I get that you mean well. But you're not keeping company with Noxious because you post on the same site. You're just posting on the same site.

Nox serves a purpose for me, at least. His wild swings at the trees help to flush the vermin out. I can see them as they run across the field in plain view.

I'm coming from the opposite angle from you. You don't care what people think as long as they don't say it. I think it's better if they say it and everybody can take their measure.

Quote from: WerekoalaWhy yes. Yes he does.

Even more reason to ban him. BTW got a link to where he advocates the killing of conservatives and Christians?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: droogI get that you mean well. But you're not keeping company with Noxious because you post on the same site. You're just posting on the same site.

I get that. But thing is, sometimes I post or I read something interesting here, and then I point someone to it. Then they see the link, and say, "what, therpgsite? That's RPGPundit's ranty boys' club, isn't it?" So they reject the place because of their impression of it - an impression which we create by the content and tone of our posts. We've already put off the women and the gays, pretty much, except for a token one here or there.

I just know that over time, it's going to turn into, "what, therpgsite? That's where those mad bastards post about killing millions of innocent civilians, yeah?" It's like SJGames, because of a few right-wing loons and rules rabbis, got itself a bad rep, put off a lot of posters.

So already I point people to interesting stuff here, and they don't even look because of the time they looked and saw RPGPundit saying women are all lying bitches, or someone talking about titfucking Nina the mod at rpg.net, that kind of shite. Why make it worse?

Quote from: droogNox serves a purpose for me, at least. His wild swings at the trees help to flush the vermin out. I can see them as they run across the field in plain view.

I'm coming from the opposite angle from you. You don't care what people think as long as they don't say it. I think it's better if they say it and everybody can take their measure.

I can understand that, it's why some years ago Victoria Police opposed the banning of the Paedophile's Association - they wanted to be able to keep an eye on the bastards.

But the point of the place is supposed to be to talk about rpgs, not flush out murderous racists.

Quote from: David REven more reason to ban him. BTW got a link to where he advocates the killing of conservatives and Christians?

Root around in here a bit:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4460&page=9

I'm pretty sure its in there somewhere. If not, damn close.

Quote from: JimBobOzIf the guy was being dogpiled every time he said something vile, there'd be no need to ban him. Silence indicates no opposition. You don't mind what he says. Maybe you even agree with it. That's what he reckons, anyway - he reckons he's the only one with the courage to openly say what everyone thinks anyway.

And see, I am of the opposite opinion. If you ignore every post he makes like that, every thread he starts like that, such comments will drop quickly into oblivion. Can you imagine how much a thread like this current one feeds his ego? Posting to his comments and threads accomplishes nothing except giving him a chest to beat against as he rubs against your leg. There are far better minds, worthy of comment and debate on this site.

Bill

Quote from: The Good AssyrianYes, I could.  I am caught in the dilemma that I have a limited amount of time to devote to this site and I'd rather read and talk about games than the politics of some jackass on the Internet.  In fact, I try to avoid the Off Topic forum as a general rule, although obviously the issue of free speech is a hot button that sucks me in more than it probably should.  But I understand where you are coming from, and I hope that you will understand my position.  I generally ignore Nox not because I secretly agree with him, but because frankly the opinions of him and people like him don't matter to me in the setting of an Internet RPG discussion site.

I understand completely, but the thing is, we should not have to worry about keeping the dickwards in check...or rather dickward, because frankly, he's the only one. I like checking in here during office hours, posting a little about games, bothering Sett a bit and generally just hanging out with fellow gamers.

Nox is not a problem when he talks about rpgs. Okay I have a problem with him, but that's because of what he says OT. I understand your concerns about moderation and free speech. I come from a country where very few place any emphasis on this concept. Money is what counts, fuck ideals. So I really get where you're coming from.

And you may not believe this, but just as the Pundit draws in many onlookers and maybe even folks who register and participate in this site, Nox's is a big turn off for many. I'm not sayin' that they will come in droves if he's kicked off...I'm just saying that the perception is, that we tolerate his behaviour.

I don't want to be the angry coloured guy calling for his ban, but I've had many conversations with folks in PM about politics, race etc. I respect their opinions, even if I don't share them, but this guy, he just keeps putting the shite out there. A year from now, he'll still be doing this.

You're one of the posters I respect TGA, I hope you don't mind me, going off on this little rant.

Regards,
David R

Interesting approach, HinterWelt.

Tell me, were you aware of mythusmage's topic ban? It's discussed here. Essentially, mythusmage used to speak in favour of adult-child sexual relations. This disgusted quite a few people, and RPGPundit gave him a topic ban, saying,

Quote from: RPGPunditSomeone who disagrees with me will NEVER be at risk of a ban for that. Someone who is making statements that can end up being highly disruptive to the functioning of this board, whatever those statements are, could be if they aren't capable of shutting up about it.

I am puzzled as to why molesting children causes offence and people agree with a topic ban, and threatened full ban if the topic ban is broken, but advocating genocide doesn't cause the same offence.

It's okay talk about wanting to kill millions of children, but not to want to molest one of them?

I confess I find this morality confusing.

So, HinterWelt, do you support mythusmage's topic ban? In what way does his topic ban differ from the topic ban I'm suggesting on Dominus Nox? (Keep him out of Off-Topic forums) In what way does a suggestion that if he breaks the topic ban, he be fully-banned, differ from one guy to the other?

Or should we ask RPGPundit to let mythusmage start chatting about his views on adult-child sexual relations again?

Quote from: Werekoalahttp://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4460&page=9

I'm pretty sure its in there somewhere. If not, damn close.

Nope didn't find anything...surely it can't be so hard ? Did find this little gem though :

QuoteIf the "peaceful majority" of muslims do nothing to stop the extremists, then in the battle against the extremists they simply don't matter and might as well not exist.

Kinda of shows you were he's coming from.

Edit: I'm really interested in finding out, where he advocated the killing of conservatives and Christians.

Regards,
David R