Quote from: JimBobOzPierce, if you are going to bring up Roman republican offices of state in your comment, at least get them right.

The popular tribunes did not ban people, the Censor did. The Censor drew up the lists of people who were fit for senatorial rank. The appointed Dictator had an extension of the Censor's power in being able to put people on the proscription (banning) list, and drive them forth from the city. The tribunes didn't have this power.

You heard me.

I am against banning Nox.

QuoteThis sounds like a personal problem for some of the posters here. If we are truly looking at the damaging effects of posters on this board and its good image then there are much bigger fish to fry than Nox. If you have a personal problem put him on your IL or just, well, ignore him.

It's not a personal problem for me.  Personally, I couldn't care less if the little punk lives or dies.

It's a public problem.  I like this site, and there's some great people who post here.  I also know a lot of great people elsewhere, whom I'd love to see post here, but won't touch it with a ten foot pole, because they see fucksticks like Nox and assume the worst, and frankly, I can't judge them too harshly for that.

Quote from: J ArcaneIt's not a personal problem for me.  Personally, I couldn't care less if the little punk lives or dies.

It's a public problem.  I like this site, and there's some great people who post here.  I also know a lot of great people elsewhere, whom I'd love to see post here, but won't touch it with a ten foot pole, because they see fucksticks like Nox and assume the worst, and frankly, I can't judge them too harshly for that.

I guess what I was getting at was I have seen people (grubman and some designer guy) chased off the site due to game related posting having nothing to do with Nox. How many people do not sign up due to Nox is a tough one to call. If we make the decision to ban him because he is offensive then what about individuals who cannot carry a conversation without resorting to personal attacks? vulgarity? How racist is racist enough? I truly do not buy into the "Greater Good" argument. If that was the case, we would get a much bigger bang for banning Nisarg/Pundit.

To put it in the common parlance, "This is bullshit and you should know it".

Bill

QuoteIf that was the case, we would get a much bigger bang for banning Nisarg/Pundit.

I can't say as it would displease me to see him retire and some more measured individual like jrients take the reigns.  It would certainly do a lot for the site as well.

Quote from: J ArcaneI can't say as it would displease me to see him retire and some more measured individual like jrients take the reigns.  It would certainly do a lot for the site as well.

The concern then becomes what lies down that path. I am not saying we cannot ban people, the founder of the site has stated that as an objective. He has admitted to an eventual need but I just do not see this poster as being that person, or,more to the point, the argument as presented does not warrant it.

If Nox was spreading this across the site, bringing it into RPG threads, design threads and such I would be fore front in the crusade to ban him. That has not been my experience but I do not exactly follow him around the site. As I said, my experience in such threads has been moderate...spooky moderate to the point where I feel one or the other is an act.

As to banning Pundit, at this point I wonder if it would do much good. TheRPGStie seems to be viewed as "his" site. Would replacing him help PR? Possibly. I would definitely be in favor of JRients. He seems a reasonable guy.

Bill

I would vote no on a ban. I believe he should be able to say what he wants, no matter how foolish or ignorant.

Of course there's no real danger of Nox being banned. We have set our standards pretty low here. Feedom of speech has a funny way of protecting the most repulsive of individuals...it's something all who cherish the concept have learnt to live with. I'm part of that crowd, even applying the principle in places where the stakes are so low - here on therpgsite.

There's also another reason, a more uncomfortable one - for me anyway -that Nox will not be banned. The fact is that what he says does not really bother many folks. Sure it could be that he's on the IL of a whole lot of people, but the amount of views on his threads where he more often than not encourages genocide against Muslims, tells a different story. Could be lurkers, that's possible and if that's the case, it could be that what they see, puts them off this place. Maybe.

I mean his last "What will England do", was particularly offensive to me. It starts off badly ....anything in OT that Nox's begins normally is...and then , soon after pork bombs and revenge fantasies about bombing the hell of another country , establishing chaos, and generally demonizing a whole group of  innocent people materialises on the thread. No reference to Nox advocating the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians - women, children, babies...doesn't matter, kill 'em all. Nobody mentions this. The thread does not become about what a racist fucker Nox is, but rather about the nuance of territorial border disputes. I mean for fucks sake, this guy just talked about killing innocent people...and nobody says a word except in passing...Nox wil be Nox.

It's funny, some folks go on about how JimBob is trying to play moral guardian and shit like that, but if he didn't confront Nox - and sure there are some who do - I doubt anyone would respond to the kind of shit he spews. Maybe I'm too close to this. After all, when he admires a group who would do me harm and advocates policies which would mean the death of many friends and relatives, I find it difficult to establish common ground on the rpg forum. I'm funny like that.

That's why it's so easy for folks to say, just put him on ignore. When someone advocates killing innocent folks who you are close too, I doubt, you would like to have a conversation with him about the weather or whether GURPS sucks or not. But I'm just one person. So this is a more of where I'm coming from rather than argument to ban the sack of shit.

Most folks who visit these boards do so - at least IME - because this site seems like a place where folks talk about the games they play. Freedom of speech, is kind of a joke. I mean, here it really means, You can be a wanker and won't be banned. But yet, most of the talk on rpgs has been robust and more friendly than expected. But then it comes to Nox and his rants, and it brings out the worst in us.

People have commented to me, that if they came here, they would spend all their time fighting with Nox, not because they can't use the fuckin' ignore function, but BECAUSE MOST OFTEN SPEECH LIKE HIS WARRANTS A RESPONSE, BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE ...fuck it, I'm rambling on here. The thing is folks don't want to spend time on an rpg board dueling with a racist. Some of us have to deal with that in real life.

But... I've shot my mouth off about how freedom of speech is the most important thing, in boards where the stakes are much higher...local (Malaysian) political boards..and it just does not sit wll with me, if this scumbag is banned. Every time I post, if this shithead is banned, I'll know that it went against a principle I claim to think the most important.

JimBob makes much sense and in the long run I know he will be proved right, but banning him JimBob....I don't care about the fuckin' free speech on this board..like I said the standard here is pretty low...but from where I come from (Malaysia), and I think you and droog, kinda of know what I'm getting at banning this fucker on free speech grounds, that just seems wrong. When a majority feel that maybe just maybe there should be some accountability on what gets posted here, then things may change or when they come to realize that maybe what he post is repulsive, but until then, the same old responses will be heard.

I hope you can make sense of this ramble.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThe thread does not become about what a racist fucker Nox is, but rather about the nuance of territorial border disputes.

Wait, so you're complaining that people largely ignored Dominus Nox's comments instead of the discussion devolving into a bout of finger-wagging? :raise:

No, I think David is saying that when it comes right down to it there are people here who agree with Nox. At least on an emotional level.

I see it too, David.

That's exactly my response.  I mean, at some point you just start ignoring what he says.  I used to work in the city (Chicago).  I'd walk by guys all the time who were spouting this crazy you-godless-heathens-are-all-going-to-hell or that nut-job-communist-will-save-us-all theory.  The first time by I went through all of the counter-arguments in my head.  The fifth time, I barely heard them.

On the anniversary of OIF, there were a bunch of anti-war protestors on one of the main corners here in town.  I heartily disagree with them, but I didn't stop to yell at them, or curse them out - I igonored them.

They're not as bad?  Why? They have a viewpoint that offends me deeply - to the point of being angry and feeling a response is needed. Then I see the pretty lights of the McDonalds and I lose all....Mmmm...Quarter Pounder...

It's why I think WK's toss off comment is so telling:

Quote from: WereKoalaYes, I know, this is all about his views on brown people and Muslims (and Christians and Republicans, though really, those views don't seem to bring out the same torch-bearing crowds).

It is interesting to note that everyone seems to focus on his "brown people" bigotry, but don't seem so upset when he bashes conservatives or Christians.

And that's why I'd vote no; because there's a strange, deep subtext in the discussion, certainly not conscious.  I bet if Nox limited himself to bashing conservatives, republicans, libertarians, Christians, OIF supporters, and naked capitalists, he wouldn't be so hated. It's that he doesn't have the right prejudices that brings him into crosshairs of so many.

Quote from: James J SkachIt is interesting to note that everyone seems to focus on his "brown people" bigotry, but don't seem so upset when he bashes conservatives or Christians.

Does he advocate killing conservatives and Christians like he does Muslims ? As for focusing on brown people bigotry, I've heard Nox say the same thing you just said.

Regards,
David R

Conservatives, Republicans, libertarians, Christians, the war machine and capitalists happen to have the upper hand at this moment in history. When Nox rails against those, people do treat him as simply a nut-job.

When Nox talks about genocide in Iran, there's a fair bit of agreement.

Quote from: David RI hope you can make sense of this ramble.

Regards,
David R

Actually, you make quite a lot of sense, David.  And I see where you are coming from.  It is personally difficult for me to "defend" Nox's ability to be an utter shithead.  As one of the "live free or die" crowd I also realize that there are going to be limits reached at which time my radical ideals will prove not to be practical for the survival of this site as a useful tool for discussion.  From my perspective that day has not come, and we are still small enough a community to police our own problems.

On the other hand, you have called me out on the second, perhaps most important, part of free speech, which is using it responsibly and doing my part to throw the digital rotten tomatoes at those who are being morons to keep them in check.  

I have to thank you because you've actually done that for me before when you pointed out that some thoughtless comment I had made did not reflect well on the site.  I agreed with you and I have tried in my own way to encourage a better kind of discussion as a result.  Could I do more to confront Nox when he says something stupid?  Yes, I could.  I am caught in the dilemma that I have a limited amount of time to devote to this site and I'd rather read and talk about games than the politics of some jackass on the Internet.  In fact, I try to avoid the Off Topic forum as a general rule, although obviously the issue of free speech is a hot button that sucks me in more than it probably should.  But I understand where you are coming from, and I hope that you will understand my position.  I generally ignore Nox not because I secretly agree with him, but because frankly the opinions of him and people like him don't matter to me in the setting of an Internet RPG discussion site.

One thing that bothers me about this whole thing is that I am sure this is *exactly* how Tangency led to the long slide to bad moderation on tBP.  The kinds of discussions in Off Topic naturally lead to more heated debates because they can strike at the heart of our identities far more readily than a discussion of your favorite RPG can.  I would suggest getting rid of Off Topic all together, but I know that it would only lead to this crap bleeding into the gaming forums.  But I have to wonder if we start banning people for stuff they say in Off Topic, when they are arguably productive in the gaming forums, that we will be starting down a long road that will end up in a place that I would prefer this site never go.


TGA

Quote from: hgjsMy opinion differs.  Off Topic is meaningless.  Its only purpose is to give people a place to talk about issues unrelated to the main purpose of the site, to stop irrelevant discussions from flooding the rest of the board.  If Domnius Nox is insulting Muslims in Off Topic but not on the boards that matter, then in my opinion Off Topic is serving its purpose well.

I agree.  Off Topic is buried way down the list after a large number of gaming related forums.  It is not our front porch.  It is apparently a necessary evil to keep the monkeys from flinging poo in the parts of the site that are critical to its core mission, namely good quality disussions about gaming.


TGA