Goddamn..."Look, if you're unwilling to dig through Tangency's archives MANUALLY, because the search checks the first post only, to prove to me that this wide-spread opinion has a basis and isn't some kind of mass hallucination, I don't believe it."

No, you're right. It's far more likely that we're all wrong in precisely the same way, rather than having shit to do that makes prowling the absolute garbage that is Tangency archives a poor use of time and, you know, having seen Curt post.


And I'm pretty sure he got asked not to return as a mod for his blanket attacks in the New Horizons thread, personally.

Quote from: JimBobOzNot really. More like, a pattern in these sorts of discussions. Quibble, dissemble, "I don't think he means what you think he means," etc.

Regardless, I'm not interested in quibbling over it.

Quote from: JimBobOzI would not say that Curt is "rabidly" homosexual, I'd say he's paranoid about insults and oppression based on his homosexuality.

And again, I don't see where this is so.  In the absence of any sort of evidence (and the reluctance of people to point out any real examples), I can only determine that this is so much homophobic bullshit.

Quote from: JimBobOzI didn't bring up Curt's sexuality, I brought up his sensitivity about his sexuality. You were saying, "about his sexuality", and I responded, "I don't care where he puts his little willy", and you say, "then why mention it?" I mention it to tell you that I don't care about it; there's no way to say that I don't care about something without mentioning it.

That would be obvious, were you not quibbling.

I wasn't talking about you specifically talking about his willy but rather about people bringing up his sexuality at all when they're talking about Curt-as-mod or Curt-as-asshole. I apologize if that wasn't clear.
 

Quote from: JimBobOzThat's true. But his calling another poster's mother a "cum-guzzling whore" has something to do with his sensitivity about his sexuality. It was an angry response to some stupid bastard saying that "that's so gay!" is not always a homophobic comment, or some shit like that.

Ahah!  See, now that's actually an example of an overreaction.  It's entirely justified in general, but as a Moderator on rpg.net, Curt was entirely over-the-line precisely because of his homosexuality-as-hot-button-topic.

So it's entirely indicative of a greater pattern of behavior.  It's not proof-positive (because he's actually lashing out at extant bigotry), but it's a good place to start in constructing the case.

Quote from: JimBobOzThe issue is not his particular sexuality, but his sensitivity about it. What I'm saying is that some individual's sexuality should not come up as a main topic of conversation on a roleplaying games site. It'd be like someone being sensitive about being in the Green Party. What the fuck has that got to do with dice and cheetos?

And I have to ask whether Curt brings this stuff up, or merely reacts to it?

Quote from: JimBobOzHis sensitivity about that topic led to his flaming out. He never insulted people while discussing other stuff, just that. It's an issue because he made it an issue, because he was sensitive about it - not because we care about it.

Yet he's reacting to something that's there...  at least in that instance.  Not something that he's imagining is there.  Ergo, while he's sensitive to it, he's not tilting at windmills.

BTW, why do you say "we" when you're (I presume) talking about the posters on rpg.net?

Quote from: JimBobOzI
don't
care
what
his
sexuality
is

I just care that he is oversensitive about some particular topic, and that when he flames out and insults people because of that sensitivity, they cut him slack.

Sensitivity to bigotry is entirely understandable.

Quote from: JimBobOzBNG = Bitter Non-Gamer.

Ah.  Of course.

Quote from: Christmas ApeGoddamn..."Look, if you're unwilling to dig through Tangency's archives MANUALLY, because the search checks the first post only, to prove to me that this wide-spread opinion has a basis and isn't some kind of mass hallucination, I don't believe it."

No, you're right. It's far more likely that we're all wrong in precisely the same way, rather than having shit to do that makes prowling the absolute garbage that is Tangency archives a poor use of time and, you know, having seen Curt post.

And I'd have to ask why you care so much what I think, and yet don't care enough to go hunting up any sort of evidence for your argument against Curt.

I'm not twisting anyone's arm here.  As you yourself said, all I can do is not believe you because you don't make a strong case.  If that bothers you, I don't know what to say.

Fuck it. I'm not playing this fucking dodging game any more. Either you read things Curt posted, or you're not sure if he was hyper-sensitive and over-aggressive about his personal issues. You remain the only person I've ever seen that somehow managed to miss it, and if the entire weight of opinion doesn't suggest there might be something there, well....I'll just say my better nature has to stomp down my instincts to read anything into this oversight.

Quote from: RedFoxGiven that, I continue to find the prevailing attitude towards Curt here off-putting.  Not that anyone has to give a shit what I think, here.

RF, when I speak of someone as a rotten, nasty, ill-mannered, ill-tempered, uncultured lout, I'm speaking of a specific individual. It is no concern of mine who you feel comfortable enough with to put yourself in a vulnerable position. Who you care for, and who cares for you, is your business, and your business alone. Be happy you can trust certain people enough to place your life in their hands.

I'm not comfortable in such situations, regardless of the other's gender or gender preferences. Thanks to heredity and environment I have a hard time letting go to that extent. Be glad that you can. And pity those so insecure they need to belittle others.

Curt's flaws are his own, they cannot say anything substantial about you. If Curt were a flaming heterosexual he'd still be a jerk. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Those myths of the gamer community apply as much to the homosexual. Simply put, not everybody who prefers other men for intensive bonding exercises is somebody you can tolerate.

I don't know about the others, but I shant say anything derogatory about you. I know how much such things can hurt, and I will not inflict such pain on another. Redfox, you have friends here, and in places you probably never even dreamed of.

Quote from: JimBobOzHonestly, I think it gets mentioned solely because he mentions it a lot. Like old Amado, he said if you didn't like the Lunars, I think it was, in Exalted it was because you were racist. That's as loopy as the guy on rpg.net who said the orcs in Tolkien represented the Third World. If you always bring up X as an issue, that's what people will remember about you. Just because X happens to be something key to the person's identity (race, sexuality, etc) doesn't mean that people intend it in that way. I mean, when people talk about RPGPundit, they mention his pipe smoking - because he makes those things an issue. It's not anything in particular about pipe smoking that they're for or against - it's just that he goes on about it a lot. Yet pipe smoking, as much as some people enjoy it, cannot really be said to be something key to a person's identity, like their sexuality or race.

When folks talk about Pundit they mention his war against the Swine. That's how he has defined himself. Whether how he has defined himself is legitimate or whether there is any merit to his so-called war - that's up to people to decide.

The perception of Curt defining himself by his sexuality is understandable. He has made it his mission to engage, sometimes in a very hostile manner with those he perceives as being homophobic. The trouble is, sexuality has always been a tricky issue. Add to that, most folks are repulsed by racism but ambivalent about about sexism and homophobia, well, let's just say that it gets complicated real fast.

I don't blame Curt fo how he is. Why should I ? One of the reason I don't bother posting much and engaging with folks who I think are makin' dodgy statements on Off Topic issues is because I don't want the hassle of engaging in long protracted flame wars. Also I understand that I'm a minority, more so, because I'm Asian participating in an mostly American (yeah I know, I know...) Forum.

So I'm not really invested in the community. Oh, sure I like this forum and am comfortable in it, but going to war with folks esp with regards to certain "issues" is not why I'm here.

I'm here to find common ground with other gamers. Now, from what I gather Curt spent most of his time on Tangency where these kinds of issues crept up often. So, folks there were really not talking about gaming. He himself once said that he would rather talk Tang stuff then gaming stuff because he prefered to game rather then talk about gaming.

So you see when folks gather in a place and talk about political, social and personal issues, it gets hot. Curt was there representing his perspective . He was very in your face about, but so what? Most folks with strong views are. I mean we have Darth Tang whose posts get more and more sinister. He is exceptable to most. Darren is extremely in your face about his politics. He is exceptable to most. Then there is Curt. He participated like everyone else and sometimes he crossed the line but you know what, so did most other folks.

I can't blame him. Most folks are more aware of making racist remarks then homophobic ones. After a while that shit gets to you. The casual stuff that happens and you know, that the person didn't really mean it, but you can't be sure. Sometimes you are wrong and sometimes you are right. IMO arguing about such shit is pointless online, but if you feel that you are a member of a community, you invest a lot in it. As I said, Curt was not there talking about games. He was talking about life and as such probably felt a lot more invested in the place then was healthy.

I could be wrong. I probably am wrong, but the fact that I feel I need to make this defence of Curt even though I know he was favoured by the Mods over at tBP and esp making this defense to you (when I more often then not agree with your postion in issues such as these) , says something.

I hope my posting record speaks for itself. I don't overreact and jump about screaming fire. Stuff has been said about him. There is cloud of something unpleasent when folks discuss Curt.

QuoteJust because Amado's race is important to him when he mentions it doesn't mean it's important to us when we mention it. Likewise, Curt's sexuality.

Nope. It depends on context. Curt never asked anyone to care about his sexuality. It comes up, when he feels that there is bigotry around. Sometimes he was wrong sometimes he was right.

QuoteSuppose RedFox flamed out some day on this forum, calling us all bastards - we wouldn't in later years go on about his being gay. Suppose John Kim went the same way - we wouldn't be babbling about his Korean ethnicity. Why? Because they don't go on about it. They don't make an issue of it, so it's not an issue.

Context.

QuoteIf Curt just happened to abuse people a lot, and just happened to be gay, no-one would connect the two, or mention the latter. It's just that he was so often using his sexuality as an excuse for ripping into people, seeing prejudice when it just wasn't there. It gets mentioned because he mentioned it a lot.

He was ripping into people because of comments he perceived as homophobic. I dont think he ever used his sexuality as an excuse to rip into people. The last thing he is, is a victim. I think folks would have had an easier time with him if he was.

QuoteCertainly. It's one of the reasons I've said that this place is not very friendly to women or gays.

I think one of the reasons tBP is friendly towards women or gays is because of folks like Curt. Has it gone to far, sure, but that's another conversation for another time.
 

QuoteStill, there's no mystery as to why his sexuality gets mentioned at all.

No mystery at all.

QuoteThe mere mention of his sexuality does not prove bigotry about that sexuality, any more than someone mentioning that I'm Australian would prove they're bigoted towards Australians. I mention it a lot, one way or another - it's an issue because I make it an issue. So I can't scream "bigots!" every time someone says, "JimBobOz the Australian..."

Jimbob it's always about context. This last bit is very true, but what the fuck does it have to do with the conversation. My feeling is is that when folks mention Curt's sexuality it is sometimes done in a deragotory manner.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Christmas ApeFuck it. I'm not playing this fucking dodging game any more. Either you read things Curt posted, or you're not sure if he was hyper-sensitive and over-aggressive about his personal issues. You remain the only person I've ever seen that somehow managed to miss it, and if the entire weight of opinion doesn't suggest there might be something there, well....I'll just say my better nature has to stomp down my instincts to read anything into this oversight.

Dude, go have a smoke or a beer or something.  Seriously, relax.

Quote from: mythusmageRF, when I speak of someone as a rotten, nasty, ill-mannered, ill-tempered, uncultured lout, I'm speaking of a specific individual. It is no concern of mine who you feel comfortable enough with to put yourself in a vulnerable position. Who you care for, and who cares for you, is your business, and your business alone. Be happy you can trust certain people enough to place your life in their hands.

I'm not comfortable in such situations, regardless of the other's gender or gender preferences. Thanks to heredity and environment I have a hard time letting go to that extent. Be glad that you can. And pity those so insecure they need to belittle others.

Curt's flaws are his own, they cannot say anything substantial about you. If Curt were a flaming heterosexual he'd still be a jerk. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Those myths of the gamer community apply as much to the homosexual. Simply put, not everybody who prefers other men for intensive bonding exercises is somebody you can tolerate.

I don't know about the others, but I shant say anything derogatory about you. I know how much such things can hurt, and I will not inflict such pain on another. Redfox, you have friends here, and in places you probably never even dreamed of.

Wow, I don't know what to say other than thanks.

I will say that I don't think that I'm defending Curt merely because he's a fellow homosexual.  As a fellow homosexual, however, I understand the reactions I've read from him and have not found them unfounded.

I don't want to be an apologist for Curt's behavior in any other regard, here or anywhere else.  Maybe I've just missed the big pink elephant in the middle of the room and people like x-mas ape are frothing at the mouth because it's so bloody obvious to anyone who actually frequented Tangency (I have not, for many years).  In that case, I apologize in advance for any affront I've given for standing on the sidelines squinting and going, "I just don't see it."

Quote from: ImperatorI am increasingly amazed of how important and worthy of discussion here is another RPG forum, which most people around here dislikes. I'm always surprised about how important is to discuss the internal processes of a board in which many people here don't take part.

I like rpg.net.

I would like to take part in rpg.net.

But they bannzorzed me, so there you go.

Am I allowed to discuss it, now?

Quote from: RedFoxAhah! See, now that's actually an example of an overreaction. It's entirely justified in general, but as a Moderator on rpg.net, Curt was entirely over-the-line precisely because of his homosexuality-as-hot-button-topic.

Well... My personal line, he wasn't over it.

"dude, that's so gay!" - always wrong, regardless of context, because it concerns a group
"Your mother is a..." etc - depends on context, because it concerns an individual. So the answer to Curt's question is, "yes, in some contexts it is not offensive for you to insult my mother." For example when two old friends meet for the first time in ages, "Bob, you son of a bitch! How the fuck are you?" - in context that's not insulting.

So, whether an insult towards an individual is a genuine insult or not depends on context; but an insult towards a group does not depend on context.

Still, it was an extreme reaction, but so what? The guy genuinely was expressing some degree of homophobia, using "gay" as a synonym for lame and wussy. So, fuck that other guy, whatever his name was.

But hey, those are the rpg.net rules. And if the mods are going to permaban people for breaking the "spirit" of the rules, they sure as shit should remove people from moderator positions and ban them for breaking the letter of the rules.

Quote from: Christmas ApeYou [RedFox] remain the only person I've ever seen that somehow managed to miss it, and if the entire weight of opinion doesn't suggest there might be something there, well....

RedFox also missed RPGPundit's misogynistic attitudes, so there you go - obviously he's just a guy who misses things on forums. Probably doing something crazy like only reading the roleplaying threads on the roleplaying forums

Quote from: JimBobOzWell... My personal line, he wasn't over it.

"dude, that's so gay!" - always wrong, regardless of context, because it concerns a group
"Your mother is a..." etc - depends on context, because it concerns an individual. So the answer to Curt's question is, "yes, in some contexts it is not offensive for you to insult my mother." For example when two old friends meet for the first time in ages, "Bob, you son of a bitch! How the fuck are you?" - in context that's not insulting.

So, whether an insult towards an individual is a genuine insult or not depends on context; but an insult towards a group does not depend on context.

Still, it was an extreme reaction, but so what? The guy genuinely was expressing some degree of homophobia, using "gay" as a synonym for lame and wussy. So, fuck that other guy, whatever his name was.

But hey, those are the rpg.net rules. And if the mods are going to permaban people for breaking the "spirit" of the rules, they sure as shit should remove people from moderator positions and ban them for breaking the letter of the rules.

Well yeah.  Without getting into that level of detail, that was my stance entirely.  Fuck that feller in the hairy donut hole.  But as a Mod at rpg.net, saying shit like that was against the rules.

Quote from: JimBobOzRedFox also missed RPGPundit's misogynistic attitudes, so there you go - obviously he's just a guy who misses things on forums. Probably doing something crazy like only reading the roleplaying threads on the roleplaying forums

I still haven't followed that link.  But I'm participating in this thread, so I'm obviously not some holy saint of gaming discussion.  I'll leave that lofty dais to Doc Rotwang.  

It's Curt's fault he behaved the way he did and how it got him into trouble.

It's Big Purple's fault that they haven't gotten off the fence concerning how Tangency has become a place where people go to bitch and snark about every little subject possible, and some sensitive subjects might possibly get under people's skin. And let's face it, that kind of shit gets tired after a while, you just want to blow up or wish folks would shut up about it. Either more or less control is needed to keep people in line topically or give them room to vent. Right now, they have the worst of both worlds. They can talk about nearly any subject, but can't always express themselves as they wish to, even if the subject is personal to them.

I think it's bogus, and they should spend more time talking about games

Quote from: RedFoxI still haven't followed that link.  But I'm participating in this thread, so I'm obviously not some holy saint of gaming discussion.  I'll leave that lofty dais to Doc Rotwang.  

Because this thread need some fucking levity in it, I present you with St. Rotwang of Indiana:



Believe in Him, for He believes in us.

Quote from: JamesVBecause this thread need some fucking levity in it, I present you with St. Rotwang of Indiana:



Believe in Him, for He believes in us.

Well, of course we believe.

The question is, are you GFS Orthodox or Angry Robot Reform?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI think Curt was a bad moderator, but I agree with David R and Red Fox re. prevailing attitude.

I can't speak for anybody else, only for me.

I dislike Curt because I didn't like his conduct as a poster and more importantly, as a moderator. I felt his attitude on TT was not conducive to RPG.net improving. I thought he was unnecesarly abrasive when giving warnings and suspensions.

I don't care about his sexual orientation, ethnicity, religious beliefs or lack thereof. I care that he was a twit and that he gladly used his moderator status to belittle and bully people without having to face the consequences others would have faced.

I'm always amused when one of the biggest bigots in the place starts tossing boulders from his glass house. Fucking Australians...

JimBob - if you think the US is "babaric" with respect to biggotry, try Europe sometime.  Oh sure, they're all "Egalite" and shit.  But when they get home and are talking to you over the kitchen table, they'll tell you all about how this group is this way and that group is that way. One of my favorites is the "there's a reason those stereotypes exist."

So take your biggotry against the US and shove it up your stupid fucktard Australian ass.  If that's racists or homophobic of me to say - deal.

Bugger. I don't have a kitchen table. I just make people stand and then piss in their soup when they're not looking.