Quote from: Spike;984946.....but that's irrelevant to my point: I highly doubt Luc Besson made a film with Leelou as a regressive, sexist 'Damsel' in any meaningful way, .....

Except he did.  Leelou (who's name isn't leelou but I can't remember it, he's not delorian either but it was a silly movie) gets captured is a stupid way for no reason other than so delorian can rescue her. And so Rianna has a reason to show up.  

The second point of adolescent gender roles is the second scean of the movie, Delorian askes LeeLou out on a date, like he does all his female parteners (he's a major she's a sargent not only are they in the same chain of command but he is her commanding officer he should be fired, but I'll give you a "movies its fine on that one") she says no, so he asks her to marry him.  That maybe gender neutral but its still adolescent.

One more, during the intro credits, thre is a string of about a dozen maybe more comanders welcomong new arrivals to the space station.  Not a single female commander.  

But my point isn't its sexist.  Its the relationship was juvenile.  

Let me know how the comics are.

Quote from: Headless;984993Except he did.  Leelou (who's name isn't leelou but I can't remember it, he's not delorian either but it was a silly movie) gets captured is a stupid way for no reason other than so delorian can rescue her. And so Rianna has a reason to show up.  

You were making an argument about retrograde sexual politics.  The Girl getting captured one time is merely a data point, not a pattern, and a captured person needs rescuing.  My question remains: Is the Girl never allowed to be vulnerable?   That seems as bland as the Guy never being allowed to be vulnerable.  

QuoteThe second point of adolescent gender roles is the second scean of the movie, Delorian askes LeeLou out on a date, like he does all his female parteners (he's a major she's a sargent not only are they in the same chain of command but he is her commanding officer he should be fired, but I'll give you a "movies its fine on that one") she says no, so he asks her to marry him.  That maybe gender neutral but its still adolescent.

Is it retrograde adolescent sexuality and ergo sexist... or is it gender neutral?    I don't think it can be both.

I just rewatched Mr Plinkett's Force Awakens review, so this is on my mind a bit, but one of the big problems with the Farce Awakens is that there is no real emotion between the characters, no relationships except some sort of sanitized G rated friendship... between any characters really.  You are telling me that you have a problem with Valorian actually showing interest in another character as a potential sexual partner?  Leaving aside legal issues, doesn't that make him more human and relatable, even if we don't like it (he's a creeper and harasser?). Also Lauraline rebuffing him shows she has agency as a person, which is... wait for it... empowering.    

QuoteOne more, during the intro credits, thre is a string of about a dozen maybe more comanders welcomong new arrivals to the space station.  Not a single female commander.  

But my point isn't its sexist.  Its the relationship was juvenile.

You specifically called out gender roles, so yes, you were saying it was sexist. That or you were upset because only two genders were shown.  I'll be generous and assume you meant the former.  I probably should have been more generous in my first response, but I was feeling extra spicy.

QuoteLet me know how the comics are.

That's the plan.  Its the movie-edition of the first volume, so the first 'chapter' is a bunch of crap about the making of, with interviews with the original writer and artist.  It may interest you to learn that Valorian and Lauraline don't kiss until volume ten, but that could be because the artist admits to not having a good solution to drawing himself kissing his wife other than drawing her kissing some other man, which he didn't want to do.  Cameras were a thing back in the seventies, but whatever.  There are a few pot shots taken at Star Wars ripping of Valorian as well, but honestly, I don't think I'll actually read that part. I'm honestly disinterested in all of that.

Having read Volume 1 (the only one I've got) I...


Hmm.

Well, the artwork and storytelling didn't really impress me much, but then again I'm reading stuff done before I was born by people who used to be french cowboys, so...

Valerians and Lauraline is... weird stuff, which was my impression from the exerpt I got for free with the advert for the movie.  The artwork in the exerpt is better, its a later story.  There are some good ideas that are touched on, but only that, touched on and for the most part its... well... its almost too weird to live.  I only put the 'almost' in there because live it did, for forty years.

The first two story arcs involve Agent Valerian travelling through time to chase down a renegade technocrat, first to mideval france, where Lauraline rescues him and later joins him after briefly being a unicorn.  The second is to Post Apocalpyse New York City, circa 1986... where again Lauraline rescues him, then he rescues her, etc.  

Socio-politically, I think its pretty enlightened, even by Headless's standards.  The writer and artist clearly do think Valerian and Lauraline are in some sort of relationship, but its done 'off page' as they say in the interviews, 'on page' its pretty much all business.  There are some refreshing takes on old cliches (odd, because this was written before I was born, ergo before I got tired of those cliches...) such as in the second story where the captured scientist largely rescues not just himself but also Valerian, and by extension Lauraline, rather than being the nebbish klutz and general incompetent (outside of science) that we so often see... despite being drawn somewhat nebbishly.  

The third story shows the progression of the 'series' being a first contact with an advanced alien civilization, and delving into some interesting but difficult to summarize questions.*

What I definitely like is that the supporting characters, teh NPCs if you will, have their own motivations and desires, and actively pursue them. They aren't there just to help/hinder Valerian in his mission but are helping/hindering because it helps them, and there is refreshingly little false moralizing going on.  The Merchant Enrin wants to take advantage of the rebellion on his home planet (caused by his helping Valerian defeat the Enlightened) in order to secure himself a place in the new provisional government that will form... and no one pouts about how 'wrong' it is.  Sun Rae agrees to help Valerian in the Post Apocalypse Earth because he can use the gadgets left behind to take power in the anarchic wilderness as a warlord, and he's a likeable supporting character, a loveable rogue (and world class flautist, apparently!).

Second post.  Thanks for the brief.  

First post.  I was geti g all set to respond with a fury of CAPS but then you ended up being reasonable.  

As for delorians sexuality, hitting on his partner may not be sexist.  Hitting on every partner might not be sexist.  But it is borish.  You can argue me a way from it being a sexist movie it was still boreish.  

Some of your questions might be answered by Anita Sarkeesinan.  Did she ever learn how to make an interesting you tube vid?  I watched pieces of her first couple but god damn were they dull.  These seem like exactly the questions she was goingto dive into though.

Not really. I mean she's basically a fire and brimstone puritan preacher of the religion of Intersectional Feminism, so she's about as useless for a debate on the merits as a vegan is on recommending a good steakhouse.

Of course, a polite vegan might try to answer based on what they've heard, but St Anita of the Gamergate Crusade won't even allow people who disagree with her to be in the same public space, much less entertain their notions.  Besides, I'd bet body parts she doesn't roll the dice, and this IS an RPG based forum.

Regarding Valerian's behavior.... boorish?  Eh.  There is a decent theory that flirting with a woman is only creepy/boorish/inappropriate if she isn't attracted to you.  How do you establish if a woman is attracted to you? You try flirting with her. Vicious cycle.  Boorish/creep/harassing behavior is objectively a problem when the dude doesn't take the hint, the rebuff, and keeps on trying like a broken robot stuck on horny, subjectively is a much much thornier question.

I can say that the relationship is clearly different, at least at the beginning, in the movie than in the comic series. In the series (in collected volume 1 anyway) we never see or hear of Valerian having a partner at all, though we do (very) breifly see some of his fellow agents relaxing in some sort of bar/lounge, and his behavior is perfectly acceptable in the... three or four panels we get.  Valerian meets Lauraline in mideaval france (11th century) in a magical forest while trapped inside a giant tree leaf, and she becomes his partner after learning (as a unicorn mind reader...) that he's from the future. There is no real flirting or sexualized behavior between them. You see them in a more relaxed partners-possibly-lovers attitude at the start of the second story arc, playing 3d chess and teasing one another... so the relationship expands entirely off screen.

Is Valerian boorish? In later volumes... possibly? I haven't a clue, but not a hint of it in the first collection, nor in the half(quarter?)-story that is the basis of the movie plot.

I'm pretty sure the Sarkeesian reference was a joke.

Just like girls, there are no jokes on the Internet. It is serious business, you know.

Wasn't a joke.  Spike asked "are women never allowed to show vulnerability?"  I was complaining that in the movie Louraline gets captured for no reason than so Delorian can rescue her.  These are exactly the questions Sarkeesinan (which my phone knows how to spell, wierd) set out to discuss.  Back before gamer gate happened.

Funny... I thought she set out to prove Batman was sexist because he wears an ass concealing cape.

I don't think so.  I mean I haven't watch all of them and she has been going for a while.  Actully I haven't watched any of the all the way through, they were dull, especially when you are used to Yatzee and MovieBob.  Man the escapiest uosed to be good.  Did you watch "There will be Brawl?"

Like I said I haven't watched all of them.  Maybe she got down to how lack of bat ass was sexist.  But they put bat nipples on the suit right?

That was a reference from an actual video, yes. One she has been mocked roundly for, not only because it shows how fundamentally unserious she is, but also because she was actually wrong, as there are plenty of male asses available for her to perv over in said game, including (I believe) at least one alternate costume for Batman that has no cape.

One of the things about Conan is the men are more naked then the women.  

Of course he lives through every adventure and the girl dies at end of every adventure or the beginning of the next one.

I agree with the criticism of Laureline's capture.  It was nonsense.  Women characters should have chances to show vulnerability, but this wasn't like that.  This was just weird and jarring.  As a rough example, put Hawkeye and Black Widow in identical suits made by Stark.  Show Hawkeye demonstrating the capabilities of the suit for several minutes worth of wall smashing, air walking, and complete environmental adaptability from under water to to hard vacuum.  The suit is pretty cool.  Then, have Black Widow captured by a rope and a basket by comic relief primitives, but don't even bother showing it.  Just one scene snagged by a lure and the next stuffed in wicker.

Hell, I LIKE Luc Besson movies, but this?  Not fun.